Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

General discussion about Kanzenshuu, its content, features, contests, community, etc. This is NOT an off-topic forum!

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VegettoEX
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Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:25 pm

Heyo! Somewhere around a year ago we deemed it necessary to bring on a little extra hired-help. I'm happy to say it's worked out pretty beautifully! Particularly with Super and the (yet again / continued) influx of new members, it was the right decision at the right time.

Lately, however, we've come to a little bit of a crossroads. There has been (valid) concern over toxicity even within our own community, and while in the past we were able to walk it off due to the shorter, one-and-done productions, Super changes that dynamic. It's constant, it's going strong, it's not looking to end any time soon, and that means everything ramps up to 11 on that dial.

Most recently, we tried something new: we temporarily locked a Dragon Ball Super episode discussion thread due to a variety of... well, let's be blunt, behavioral problems. This has been an on-going issue with the threads for some time, and wasn't something we as an administrative and moderation team had been able to handle properly. The "new" part of the lock technique was an extensive, documented list of what we as a team would consider inappropriate post content going by the spirit of our community guidelines. It's an extension of something we have done in the past, taken to a(n) (extreme) new level: making an example out of someone.

It seems that some folks want a little more transparency, so let's talk about it a little bit.

First thing's first: this probably comes off as "Mike's just being super defensive and trying to cover his ass" but in all honesty? These kinds of larger reactions don't happen in a vacuum. None of us as admins/mods come across stuff and immediately make rash reactions about how to handle it. There's a heads-up and at least some kind of conversation about it. In this particular case, I took the bullet because quite frankly it's going to be noticed more than if Ajay did it. We needed that here. The only next level of severity beyond me is probably if Jake if all people had to step in and do it.

Contrary to what some people think, we do actually value your input and want to hear your opinions. You challenging us makes us better mods and better people. Here's a smattering of the responses that came in following the thread's re-opening:
dblack wrote:I'd just like to say locking this thread and bashing all the commenters was the lamest thing I've seen a site do in a while. Even bashed the dude for having poor grammar.

Correct way to handle this is DM's, warnings, and bans for repeat offenders. Instead we got scolded by some dude who gets e-hard by throwing his Internet power around. Wanted everyone to read his "clever" comments so he locked it. Embarrassing really.

*shrugs* You're welcome to delete this or ban me or whatever I'm sure it's not the first or last time it will be pointed out that VegettoEX guy is a tool.
Gafonso6 wrote:I have to say that what VegettoEX did is probably the best thing he could've done. This thread is always filled with misinformation before the Herms summary or before the subs, so it's for the best that it remains locked. As for the temporary lock this thread got it was also a good idea since a lot of people probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise.
z_cherub wrote:This site and it's mods do a lot of great work. Handling conflict and disagreement like adults is not among that great work. VegettoEX is repeatedly baited into/resorts to public retorts, "discipline" and comments as opposed to PMs/discreet moderation. None of that is in good taste and it's been brought to his attention multiple times.

That said, in the interest of being fair, he and the other mods do a ton of great work in a lot of areas on this site to make it perhaps the best of its kind.

The mods, VegettoEX in particular, seem to have little interest in adjusting their moderation style to be more discreet, efficient and in better taste, so it's up to us whether we want to put up with that to enjoy the great things that this place does, or if it's too much & we'd prefer to move on to another community. That's an individual decision for everyone.
And then just for good measure from the "toxicity" thread because they're relevant (and no, not just because they're in agreement with us!):
Cipher wrote:I think the decision to keep those episodes locked until summaries or subtitles are out is for the best. Nothing occurs beforehand except a race to post tweet-like reactions based on a half-understanding of the episode, or an equally tweet-like race to inform those reactions with bits of translated dialogue or information from viewers who can understand some Japanese. I was guilty of participating in that this week. Nothing genuinely worth reading is going to be posted until after the episode has aired in full and is available with subtitles, at which point the urge to rush in with non-holistic reactions has, hopefully, mostly subsided. Much better for everyone's sanity.
Metalwario64 wrote:One thing I've noticed is that most of those posts that were "unacceptable" by VegettoEX were from users I was completely unfamiliar with.

It seems that the influx of new material has brought in tons of new fans, or fans from other communities, and they're trying to post here as they would elsewhere, despite the rules clearly stating how things are run here.

Thankfully, we have an awesome mod team that keeps things clean and orderly.
The first take-away is: well, you're not going to win every battle. That's the (pretty cool) thing about bringing such an enormous number of people together. We don't agree on everything! See again: challenging us on things. Keep doing it. Well, ya' know, within reason. We're still gonna have the "fuck that fagettoex" crowd even if we take it back to Psaros-board-era community management social experimentation. That's OK. I saw it 20 years ago (when it was more than warranted), and I'll see it in another 20 years (when it's hopefully less warranted). (Also holy shit what am I still doing in 20 years.)

That point about unfamiliar faces is very interesting to me, and leads back to that point/technique: making an example.

We do this very rarely, and for good measure: it's in poor taste, we recognize it's in poor taste, but it makes an impact when it's used (so long as it's not OVERused). One of the only other times I can think of when we've had to do this was the random instance of gay-bashers coming out of the woodwork. Silent moderation for nonsense like single-word posts and such is great, and issuing warnings is great, but that doesn't always get to and address the root of the problem. Sometimes you need to actually get out there and say, "Hey. This? This shit right here? This is. Not. OK." When the problem reaches critical mass, you can do all the individual warnings and bans you want, but unless the larger crowd knows "shit ain't cool", we're just making more work for ourselves and we're giving the impression that it's OK to continue.

Look, we know Kanzenshuu is different. We're a tad bit arrogant about it. We want the best conversations from the best people. That's not always what people want out of a community. Sometimes they just want to vent and act out. That's cool. Just don't do it here. That's a fair point about "maybe they don't want us" / "maybe this isn't the place for us". We absolutely want you to love this place, but we also recognize we can't be everything to everyone, and we might have to agree to disagree on some things.

But keep challenging us. We might disagree with you (as we clearly do with some of the responses here), but that's cool. We do actually care. Haters gonna hate, but sometimes the haters got a point. Other times they don't. Most of the time they don't. More than most of the time they don't. Here? They don't. But that's also cool.

So I dunno, man. Here's a giant post. I guess Toriyama said a thing once.

(Also, we're going to be more vigilant in the episode discussion threads.)
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SansrivaaL
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by SansrivaaL » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:19 am

While I myself sometimes gets a little nervous with what I post since I dont wanna get a warning or called out, if the user in question already recieved a warning,tempo ban and all that first step stuffs when you post things that doesnt abide the rules but still continues to post unwanted shit then calling him out in the open is the next best thing to catch his/her attention that what they're doing doesnt help, it may not be pleasant to read and it may look like you're wagging your so called "internet power" but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Tho calling that person out because his post lacks grammatical structure was a tad bit harsh (but maybe its because my grammatical structure is just if not more terrible)
I just wanna say what you're doing isnt bad. It may look bad for some but its whats need to be done to keep this place in check. As always great work and more power to this forum :thumbup:

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by LightBing » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:39 pm

I'm happy with the moderation because it's open to be criticized (not that it's common) and it does a good job. My only complaint regarding the recent incident was that I and others didn't have a place to discuss the episode, everyone suffering because of a few is not a good approach. Of course that has been resolved with the re-opening of the thread.

I have a request: please pay special attention to the manga thread when leaks start appearing. It becomes as bad as the episode threads.

Also hopefully it doesn't happen but there's a risk people flock to other threads until the episode thread opens. There might be some threads completely taken over by people without restraint and patience. The announcement thread incurs the most risk.

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Zephyr » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 pm

LightBing wrote:I have a request: please pay special attention to the manga thread when leaks start appearing. It becomes as bad as the episode threads.
Oh, yes, very much this. Every time even a single panel leaks, you have a legion of folks taking it completely out of context. This only continues until the full thing is eventually leaked, and everyone's opinions are already largely rigidly settled (pretty much exactly how the episode threads go down while people are watching it live and raw). By the time Viz actually posts their translated chapter (so we can actually read what's being said on the pages themselves and properly consume the media, rather than just a disconnected dialog translation), discussion on the chapter itself has largely died down. There's no patience for getting the actual thing, and as such, there's hardly any discussion of the actual thing.

I don't know how to best approach this one. Unlike the anime, there aren't Chapter-specific discussion treads, so the "lock until properly available" thing isn't exactly doable. I don't know if the staff would want to make Chapter specific threads this late in the game (or at all, it being a promotional manga and all). Keeping the thread locked in-between chapters also likely wouldn't do, since that would enable only a relatively small window for discussion time. I guess like LightBing said, just pay special attention to it starting around the 16th of every month?

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:36 pm

Zephyr wrote:
LightBing wrote:I have a request: please pay special attention to the manga thread when leaks start appearing. It becomes as bad as the episode threads.
Oh, yes, very much this. Every time even a single panel leaks, you have a legion of folks taking it completely out of context. This only continues until the full thing is eventually leaked, and everyone's opinions are already largely rigidly settled (pretty much exactly how the episode threads go down while people are watching it live and raw). By the time Viz actually posts their translated chapter (so we can actually read what's being said on the pages themselves and properly consume the media, rather than just a disconnected dialog translation), discussion on the chapter itself has largely died down. There's no patience for getting the actual thing, and as such, there's hardly any discussion of the actual thing.

I don't know how to best approach this one. Unlike the anime, there aren't Chapter-specific discussion treads, so the "lock until properly available" thing isn't exactly doable. I don't know if the staff would want to make Chapter specific threads this late in the game (or at all, it being a promotional manga and all). Keeping the thread locked in-between chapters also likely wouldn't do, since that would enable only a relatively small window for discussion time. I guess like LightBing said, just pay special attention to it starting around the 16th of every month?
I third this. Definitely wouldn't want individual chapter threads, it could very well make the problem worse. Not sure just watching the thread will do, though, it can go by pretty fast on an active day. I'm sure the moderation team can think of something.
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by batistabus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:37 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I third this.
Fourth. Personally, I'd be fine with chapter-specific threads. I feel like many members of this community value the manga equally (if not more) to the anime, so I see no reason why the moderation shouldn't be handled in a similar fashion.

I'll be honest, I've been relatively dissatisfied with the general tone of conversation here lately. I'm not sure what the cause is...if the more prominent members express themselves more often on Twitter, if Super is simply bringing in a wider audience, or if I'm just getting older, but the general maturity level here seems to be lower than I remember. I've been occasionally inclined to take my Dragon Ball conversations to Twitter and Reddit lately, because at least there you have objective feedback systems ("liking" a post).

Anyway, love what you guys do. I'm not sure if anything can actually be done about this, but I'm not planning on going anywhere for the time being.

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:11 am

Considering my past history of helping to provide clarity (via my fiance) when the chapters were only leaking early in Korean, I'm relatively partial to the Super manga thread. I know it can be a disaster at times, so I do try to keep an eye on it. The keyword here though is "try". The material tends to leak during the period after I've gone to bed and before I finish work. I only have access to my phone till I'm back home, and my data connection is...let's just say it's not the greatest. By the time I'm off work and finish my household duties, I don't have time or energy to clean up 10-20 pages worth of chaotic "discussion".
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:51 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:Considering my past history of helping to provide clarity (via my fiance) when the chapters were only leaking early in Korean, I'm relatively partial to the Super manga thread. I know it can be a disaster at times, so I do try to keep an eye on it. The keyword here though is "try". The material tends to leak during the period after I've gone to bed and before I finish work. I only have access to my phone till I'm back home, and my data connection is...let's just say it's not the greatest. By the time I'm off work and finish my household duties, I don't have time or energy to clean up 10-20 pages worth of chaotic "discussion".
Is it possible to do temp bans for specific sections of the board? That would be my recommendation. If people can't act like adults, then kick them out of the Super section for a week or so, bumping up the time for each offense, up until actual bans.

Also, congrats on 11111 posts.
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Cipher » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:57 pm

So, I'm sure this has been noticed by our venerable clean-up crew, but, as some predicted, episode discussion in advance of summaries and subtitles has simply spilled over into the general announcement thread. I'm not eager to start reporting individual posts, as there are many and none are particularly harmful on their own, but it does somewhat defeat the purpose of keeping the episode threads locked. Not sure what the best approach at this point would be.

Same tenor of discussion as the early posts in the episode discussion threads as well.

EDIT -- Ajay took care of it.

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by SansrivaaL » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:00 pm

I wonder if they can add a chatbox, its really tempting to talk about what we just saw.

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:06 pm

I sincerely doubt that will happen. If you want a live chat, you can always use the DaizEX IRC.
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Ajay » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:07 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:I wonder if they can add a chatbox, its really tempting to talk about what we just saw.
Mike would have to give a definitive answer to that, but I'm fairly sure we hold the same opinion: social media and various chat options such as Facebook, Twitter, Discord, and even Kanzenshuu's own IRC channel all exist to allow for quick reactions.

The discussion threads should house well-informed opinions where everyone can have civilised discussions based on a full understanding of the episode.
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Cipher » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:25 pm

I absolutely see where the team is coming from with wanting to avoid onsite chat-like conversation. Kanzenshuu's stance toward forum posts seems to consistently be that anything worth saying in the moment should also be worth saying in perpetuity.

(Though it still kills me that I can't edit posts after two hours.)

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by SansrivaaL » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:42 pm

I see, thats too bad.... I'm gonna have to contain myself from talking about it the moment the episode finishes, this will really need some getting used to as I'm the talkative type.

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by floofychan333 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:55 pm

I personally think you guys are doing a good job. VegettoEX in particular knows how to reason with people and doesn't simply bash people for bad posts. I have made a few dumb/illogical posts in my day and I can remember at least one instance when VegettoEX gave me constructive criticism on my statement rather than just lambaste it like so many users do to each other's posts. Moderators are also fair when shutting down threads and usually give users strikes before shutting a thread down.
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Zephyr » Wed May 17, 2017 6:57 pm

Zephyr wrote:I don't know how to best approach this one. Unlike the anime, there aren't Chapter-specific discussion treads, so the "lock until properly available" thing isn't exactly doable. I don't know if the staff would want to make Chapter specific threads this late in the game (or at all, it being a promotional manga and all). Keeping the thread locked in-between chapters also likely wouldn't do, since that would enable only a relatively small window for discussion time. I guess like LightBing said, just pay special attention to it starting around the 16th of every month?
So, the latest chapter has started its "leak" phase, and an idea popped into my head. Disagreeing now with Past Zephyr, I think periodically locking the thread could do some good, and I think I know the perfect time to lock it: right when the leaks begin.

Once the leaks begin, every ounce of discussion tends to center around them. Nobody is discussing the prior chapters anymore. So the period between the first leak dropping, and the actual release of the chapter, seems the prime time to have the thread locked. That's the equivalent slice of time to any given Episode Discussion Thread's slice of time between the episode starting live, and official subs/Kanzenshuu's summary dropping, where it's nonstop half-informed speculation and complaining about incomplete information.

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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by simtek34 » Wed May 17, 2017 9:02 pm

To help "clear" Kanzenshuu from new member that might be a little too over te top, I was thinking of taking a page out of the Sonic Retro forums where before getting validated to join, you have to write a validation post to rove you are worthy.

Since you need to have an account to read this, I'll just post this here. [spoiler]First and foremost, welcome to Sonic Retro! The purpose of this forum is for anyone in the Pending Membership group (usually new members) to plead their case as to why they think they should be able to gain posting privileges.


Here are some things you may want to write about. These are guidelines and not absolutes, so feel free to talk around these points too. Do not feel you need to use these as headings within your post.

1) Why did you decide to join Sonic Retro?
2) How do you intend on contributing to the community?
3) Tell us a bit about yourself! Afterall, we're all people here. :U


One major guideline to follow is about post length. While we don't want an entire thesis about why Sonic Retro should validate you, one or two lines alone is not good either. You will find that the majority, if not all, of the posts like this have not ended in a validation at the end of it. Also, you will find that even if you have a good validation post, but your trial posts are only one or two line replies, you won't end up with a full membership either.


Another guideline to follow is about usernames. We don't generally allow usernames that are generic-internet in nature, such as multiple words and with numbers at the end, and doing so will reflect badly from the get-go on your validation post. Also, unimaginative Sonic references are a general no-no too. No "SuperShadow2841"s, please.

If, however, you do have a good validation post and have a username like this, we will offer you the chance to change your username to something else. While we know lots of usernames have been taken across the Internet already, we try to make sure all are fairly normal here. Most times this will just be a case of removing the numbers, so don't worry too much about it right now and get writing that validation post instead!


Slow down. We want to know about you, not the thing you found out. While you may be wanting to post here because you have found out something special and want to share it with all of us here, please do not post the entire thing as your validation post alone. A single line or two about it in general will do; this isn't about what you want to share immediately, it's about who you are and about you being a further contributing member to the community.

We want to know about you, not about you in relation to the Sonic franchise. When we say we want to learn about you as a person, that isn't us asking for a resumé of which Sonic games you have (and haven't) played and when. Again, a single line saying your favourite game is fine, but anything more and it just turns into a list. We know you aren't a list, you're a person, so we don't want you to express yourself as one(!)

We really don't care if you are able to beta test. While it is nice having testers for ROM hacking, the boards are not just about this alone, and absolutely anyone can beta test if they wish to.

Similarly, we really do not just want you here to contribute to projects such as Sonic 2 HD. Not only is it now a closed project and not accepting public resources, but again it tells us nothing about you and what you will do for the community.

If you say you will be contributing to the wiki(s), if we then check and see that you have not done a thing you may not get full membership once your trial posts are over.


If you find you are waiting around for a while without being validated, it is all the more likely that what you have written is not up to par. Don't bump your topic to the top with a generic reply of "did you forget about me?" as it will just reflect badly on yourself for this process. If you want to bump your topic with an improved validation post then that is okay, but don't create a new topic. Sometimes having that little extra patience to wait before bumping your topic in curiosity can mean the difference between a validation and not, and not in your own favour.

Similarly, don't reply to other topics that aren't your own. This is NOT a discussion forum for those waiting to be validated.

Please remember, we are all people too and we do have lives outside of Sonic Retro. If you still haven't been validated after a few hours please do not worry. While we do validate on a regular basis sometimes you may slip through the net, although it is a rare occurrence.

Also, because we do have lives outside of Sonic Retro, as well as other administration and moderation tasks on the forum, we can't tell you exactly why your validation post is not accepted. Just look over other posts that have and have not, and figure it out. Most of the time, it'll just be one of these points that you may have missed out on reading.


If you are completely stuck, take a look at other locked threads in the forum. Those are usually the ones for people that have been validated. Look what they've done right, and try to emulate it. Your chances of approval will rise dramatically.


At the end of the day, the reason for this is so we can get to know a bit about you and the way you are before you join us. Be cool, and be smart, and you'll be joining the rest of us in no time. Good luck![/spoiler]
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by ShadowDude112 » Thu May 18, 2017 1:47 am

simtek34 wrote:Be more like how Sonic Retro does stuff
I get where this is coming from, but I don't think it works with Kanzenshuu. I'm a member on Sonic Retro. It's a good place with tons of people that are nice. But they have that validation process for a lot of completely reasons. The first being is that Sonic has a lot wider of a fanbase. What that comes down to is there being people of all ages on there. For example, sometimes when I check and see who's birthday it is on Retro, and it shows their age, some people who didn't get past that very first validation post, joined when they were less than 13. Hell, I've seen some that were less than 10 years old when they signed up. Kanzenshuu doesn't have that problem. Especially because most of the fans are over 13, at the very least. The second being the influx of how many people join Sonic Retro at a time. Even the older ones. I bet more people join Sonic Retro daily than Kanzenshuu. I'm sure it's not a huge number, but it's enough. Making that validation post manditory makes it so the moderation or admin team can at least get a judge of everyone who just joined. There's a few more reasons I can list, but really, it comes down to the bigger fanbase.

I hate to break it to you, but if it's been 3 months, you most likely aren't getting validated. It took me a few days to get my trial period, and after that a day or 2 to get approved for a full membership.
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu May 18, 2017 2:03 am

ShadowDude112 wrote:
simtek34 wrote:Be more like how Sonic Retro does stuff
I get where this is coming from, but I don't think it works with Kanzenshuu. I'm a member on Sonic Retro. It's a good place with tons of people that are nice. But they have that validation process for a lot of completely reasons. The first being is that Sonic has a lot wider of a fanbase. What that comes down to is there being people of all ages on there. For example, sometimes when I check and see who's birthday it is on Retro, and it shows their age, some people who didn't get past that very first validation post, joined when they were less than 13. Hell, I've seen some that were less than 10 years old when they signed up. Kanzenshuu doesn't have that problem. Especially because most of the fans are over 13, at the very least. The second being the influx of how many people join Sonic Retro at a time. Even the older ones. I bet more people join Sonic Retro daily than Kanzenshuu. I'm sure it's not a huge number, but it's enough. Making that validation post manditory makes it so the moderation or admin team can at least get a judge of everyone who just joined. There's a few more reasons I can list, but really, it comes down to the bigger fanbase.

I hate to break it to you, but if it's been 3 months, you most likely aren't getting validated. It took me a few days to get my trial period, and after that a day or 2 to get approved for a full membership.
I think you'd be surprised regarding how many children are on here. Most of them don't list their age, or they lie about it. I've been messaged by them, and sometimes even harassed or annoyed half to death by them over Twitter PM's (Though unfortunately that hasn't been exclusive to the younger fans. I even had a certain unnamed former Enigmembero try to convince me to be his surrogate on the forum :lol:) Even at that, I agree with you on this. People generally know what flies and what doesn't on the forum, whether it be by the mods making examples or by the general tone of the members. I see no need for such an extensive process here. I certainly wouldn't have bothered to join, and I imagine the same is true for other members that are far more insightful than I am. There's no need to fix something that isn't broken.
Retired.

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The gr
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Re: Moderation Updates: 2017 Edition!

Post by The gr » Sun May 21, 2017 1:39 pm

I don't know of this is the right place but I'm gonna post it, for some reason I'm seeing the user DBZAOTA482 temporary banned yet he's posting like everyone else here, aren't temporary banned user are not allowed to post again for a while until ban is lifted,and by looking the history of this user,he looks like a nice person
    is this a glitch or an error
    Mostly active on discord.

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