Cannons and Power Levels

General discussion about Kanzenshuu, its content, features, contests, community, etc. This is NOT an off-topic forum!

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
batistabus
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: DBS:SH

Cannons and Power Levels

Post by batistabus » Sun May 07, 2017 9:37 pm

I'm not sure if I'm creating this in the proper subsection, but I placed it here because I feel that this is more of a meta/community topic than an in-universe one.

The topics of canonicity and battle powers in Dragon Ball contain some of the most toxic, unproductive, and generally uninteresting discussion in the fan-base. These conversations had dominated an unjustly sizable portion of Dragon Ball discourse for decades. Kanzenshuu has (almost single-handedly) exposed the pitfalls of these conversations, and a much more sizable portion of the Western Dragon Ball community has adopted these views. I think this is a fantastic thing overall.

However, I think this view has possibly started to shift the conversation a bit too far in the other direction. While battle power and "canon" should not be the only thing we talk about, talking about them at all has almost become taboo. I don't care if Dabra is stronger than Cell, but I might care about inconsistent portrayals of character potential in Super. I don't care if Broli is canon to GT, but I might care about discussing the Dragon Ball continuity as envisioned by Akira Toriyama.

These topics certainly get out of hand, but I don't agree that they don't have a place in Dragon Ball discussion. If I feel that Trunks evenly trading blows with Rosé Goku Black in the anime goes against the fact that he returned to the past to begin with, I feel like I need to attach a "I don't care about battle powers, but..." disclaimer to clarify my position. (And to go ahead and clarify my position right now, I don't care about things like Super Saiyan Vegeta surpassing Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Battle of Gods, or Sorbet shooting a hole through Blue Goku.)

Yes, there is no established "canon", but not all "head-canons" are created equal. If you only view the original manga as it ran in Shonen Jump in Japan to be the only "canon", that's one thing. But many seem inclined to pick and choose information out of Super a la carte just because nobody at Shueisha has explicitly said "THIS IS CANON AND THIS IS NOT". I am personally very interested in Akira Toriyama's vision of the series; what he thinks makes characters tick, what he thinks happens off-screen, and his character designs. We'll never know the full extent of his contributions to Super unless/until we get a guidebook detailing his outlines and drawings designs, but distilling his contributions are something I'm very interested in. Is trying to find out what Toriyama intended - something that I feel reflects what is more "true" about the series than what Toei writes for the anime - something that should be frowned upon? I'm asking that honestly, because I'm unsure. I am not writing this because I have had this discussion and felt attacked, but because I felt that I needed to walk on eggshells in the process.

While it might make these types of conversations more complicated, perhaps it's for the best. I suppose being overly cautious is better than the absolutely anarchy that dominated these discussions in the past. What do you think? I know there are specific places of contained chaos to discuss power and canon in Dragon Ball (Super), but are these the only acceptable venues? Is there a proper way to discuss these things in "General Discussion" threads without being seen as toxic or obsessed with the superficial aspects of the series?

User avatar
Luso Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Cannons and Power Levels

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed May 10, 2017 6:20 am

batistabus wrote:If I feel that Trunks evenly trading blows with Rosé Goku Black in the anime goes against the fact that he returned to the past to begin with, I feel like I need to attach a "I don't care about battle powers, but..." disclaimer to clarify my position. (And to go ahead and clarify my position right now, I don't care about things like Super Saiyan Vegeta surpassing Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Battle of Gods, or Sorbet shooting a hole through Blue Goku.)
If you don't care about battle powers, I assume you acknowledge the fact that power is volatile, it's not set in stone or in a number and as such there's always been a certain leeway throughout the franchise for entertainment purposes (which is the point of the fights and series itself). So why cherry pick it? That's like saying "I don't care about battle powers, but I care about power levels". Even if we were talking more broadly (which I believe is what you're after), there's no inconsistency at all. In the end, Trunks was always portrayed as less powerful than Black.

User avatar
batistabus
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: DBS:SH

Re: Cannons and Power Levels

Post by batistabus » Wed May 10, 2017 3:47 pm

Luso Saiyan wrote:If you don't care about battle powers, I assume you acknowledge the fact that power is volatile, it's not set in stone or in a number and as such there's always been a certain leeway throughout the franchise for entertainment purposes (which is the point of the fights and series itself). So why cherry pick it? That's like saying "I don't care about battle powers, but I care about power levels". Even if we were talking more broadly (which I believe is what you're after), there's no inconsistency at all. In the end, Trunks was always portrayed as less powerful than Black.
There are different stances you can take here. On one end of the spectrum, you can say "I don't care about power levels at all, anybody can defeat anybody as long as it's cool to watch", or you can say "If one character is stronger than another, the weaker character shouldn't be able to touch the stronger one". I lie somewhere in between. If a weaker character is going to damage a much stronger one, there should be a reason. For me, a sneak attack (Sorbet vs Blue Goku) is a good reason. A point-blank ki attack (Blue Goku vs Merged Zamasu) is a good reason. A gimmicky technique (Tenshinan vs Cell) is a good reason. I will even accept such a discrepancy if the reason isn't actually stated in the series but plausible speculation by fans (Blue Goku possibly "holding back" in the ToP recruitment episodes). If there is no plausible reason, but it simply just happens, then I dislike it. I've learned to simply turn my brain off when watching the anime for the most part because of how frequently it happens, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth criticizing as a piece of entertainment.

I'll put this next part in a spoiler tag because it's not directly related to the point of this thread.
[spoiler]In the specific case of Trunks, he comes to the past because he is utterly helpless against Goku Black. He trains with Vegeta for one day, returns to the past, and is able to evenly trade blows with a significantly more powerful Goku Black. I dislike it because it feels like Toei is portraying Trunks in a way that fans will like, not a way that is true to his character or the rules of the universe. It feels very cheap, and it feels like Toei isn't putting much thought into telling an interesting story. Yes, the animation for that fight scene was a pleasure to watch, and the whole thing is almost worth it for the spectacle of it. But who do we have to thank for that? I can compliment the animators while criticizing the writers because they have to separate jobs.[/spoiler]

cheddarsword
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:59 am

Re: Cannons and Power Levels

Post by cheddarsword » Wed May 10, 2017 10:57 pm

You say that battle power is a volatile subject and that it has become a frequent topic as well as a blight on the community and yet you justify your statement with your own thoughts on battle power.

Sound logic is sound.

I agree that they can be heated discussions but let's be honest. That's the internet in a nutshell. Heated discussions about fictional stories and characters are common in EVERY FAN BASE.

Zelda; Timeline
Mega Man: Chronology and what happens between eras
Mario: Existence of a canon and what characters are worthwhile/garbage
Smash Bros. Competetive Vs. Non Competetive
Gundam: Which series/era/alt. universe is the best and can newtypes handle the zero system
Fighting Games: Which game in each series is the best (this applies to ALL FRANCHISES mind you)
Shooters: Battlfield Vs. Call of Duty Vs. Halo and Overwatch Vs. Paladins
Sonic: You name it, fans argue about it.

It's everywhere. These discussions, while almost never reaching a definitive answer (or coalescing in the case of Sonic's fan base), these types discussions exist and continue to exist. You can't thrown logic or reason at them, because not everyone can agree on something.

The best solution for this "problem", is to give up on trying to fix it and come up with your own theories based on what you believe to be true. Research what you want to know and ask questions when you need to. If a discussion gets too heated for you, back out.

But then there's the other side. Sometimes an answer or at least an agreement IS reached. Or at the very least, a better understanding or appreciation is gained.

These discussions shouldn't really go away. I think people would lose too much if they did.

Except the Sonic fan base. That's just a hot mess.

User avatar
Tyro
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: USA

Re: Cannons and Power Levels

Post by Tyro » Mon May 15, 2017 3:57 pm

I believe there are still really good conversations to be had regarding "canon". There is just so much you can say about it and so many ways you can define it. It's thrilling how it can mean so much and also mean nothing at the same time. You would probably have to write a phone book-sized encyclopedia about it to cover everything, and that's just related to Dragon Ball.

The extent that I enjoy talking about "power levels" ends with speculating the Saiyan and Freeza arc numbers. I don't really think about them outside those arcs. However, I do enjoy strength debates and keeping track of that sort of thing from an in-universe perspective. For the most part I think Dragon Ball handled power ups decently. Normally training took place over long-ish periods of time or there was an interesting twist to the training that validated how strong the characters were going to become. I don't get the same vibe with Super. Train a couple months and suddenly you're SSB-level. To me that's a boring piece of universe building.

But I do agree with OP. People think you're a buzz kill for bringing up poor power scaling.

Post Reply