Dimps, we need to talk...

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Nia » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:41 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
emperior wrote:
Lightdasher wrote: I'm curious about this too. It's likely just because I only play this game for the parallel quests, but the mechanic seems at least somewhat fairly balanced. How does it feel broken, among players, and what would those players suggest be done to fix the issue(s)?
I have sold my XV2 copy a while ago, but I remember absolutely hating the stamina system. It's not fun, and once you get your guard broken you just sit there and watch your character getting combo-ed without you being able to do anything about it. That's definitely not a good mechanic, and I hope they will get rid of it with the next game.
I feel like Tenkaichi 3 sort of nailed the gameplay for a 3D DBZ game so I hope they will be inspired from it for their next game. Even though in my opinion they should revert to the glorious 2.5D gameplay Dimps DBZ game always had before the first Xenoverse. It's less broken, more fun, and keeps the high speed battles feeling of XV2. Shin Budokai 2 is a prime example of how good a 2.5D DBZ game can be if done right.
With some workarounds they could be able to keep the multi-team battles, DB hunt thing and other gimmicks they introduced in PQs - my idea would be of seamlessly switch the gameplay from 2.5D to 3D after the fights are over.
Exactly. Because of the stamina I can only play XV2 in short bursts because of how annoying it is. Imo, Budokai 3 handled stamina perfectly. I forget exactly how it happened, either after Hyper Mode or losing your transformation, but your character would stand still and catch their breath for a few moments and you had to press all 4 buttons to stop it. Then the action starts again. No 2 minutes of sitting there while the slow stamina bar recharges to full.
It only takes a long time to recover if you get stamina broken (or just plain run out) when you're low on stamina. You recover it faster (when not stamina broken) on the ground than when flying, and it stops regenerating whenever you're dashing, attacking, or step vanishing. Not to mention, you can use Limit Burst to cancel out getting ragdolled by a stamina break now.
I will say I think there is somewhat of an over-reliance on stamina management, but a lot of this is really overblown.

Instead of trying to vanish out of the first hit of a combo, wait until the enemy goes for a bigger strike, or if you do vanish out of one, immediately block or dash backward (dashing is easier, but with good timing, you can also vanish step).
Also, a standard vanish only costs one bar of stamina if you're blocking or attacking, so you can use that to spare a bit of stamina that way.

(Also, in Budokai 3, fatigue built up from dodging, especially that games equivelant of vanish which cost Ki too, and just plain old taking damage. If you got hit while low on stamina, you'd revert from your transformations and be left helpless, and generally had to eat a hefty attack from an enemy, so I'm not seeing much difference here. If anything, you were actually more helpless in Budokai 3, since you also needed Ki to dodge.)

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:53 pm

Nia wrote:*snip*
It's still horribly implemented in the game. Overblown in your opinion, perfectly justified in mine.

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Lightdasher » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:40 pm

I'm with Nia! At least if we're comparing XV2 to Budokai 3. At least in XV2, I can use Goten and still have a nice chance for victory. Should my opponent escape, there are multiple ways to avoid using my stamina to do the same. The same can't be said with Budokai 3, because quite a few opponents have much higher base ki. Goten vs Omega Shenron or Super Saiyan 3 Goku, for example, isn't a very fun matchup. I know I'm likely in the minority here; surely most players will want to use strong characters like Jiren, SS3 Goku, etc in games anyway, but I'm just glad XV2 gives quite a few characters a bigger chance for survival. Not all of us can turn to FighterZ to play a game where everyone's on equal standing. u_u
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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:21 pm

Lightdasher wrote:I'm with Nia! At least if we're comparing XV2 to Budokai 3. At least in XV2, I can use Goten and still have a nice chance for victory. Should my opponent escape, there are multiple ways to avoid using my stamina to do the same. The same can't be said with Budokai 3, because quite a few opponents have much higher base ki. Goten vs Omega Shenron or Super Saiyan 3 Goku, for example, isn't a very fun matchup. I know I'm likely in the minority here; surely most players will want to use strong characters like Jiren, SS3 Goku, etc in games anyway, but I'm just glad XV2 gives quite a few characters a bigger chance for survival. Not all of us can turn to FighterZ to play a game where everyone's on equal standing. u_u
Speak for yourself. I had lots of fun whooping Omega Shenron or Kid Buu's asses with Yamcha, Videl, and Uub in Budokai 3.

Kid Buu in particular is pretty easy once you realize how terrible he is in close-quarters.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by SuperCyan2 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:58 pm

I wish Dimps would get back to develop Budoukai games instead of Tenkaichi-like ones. :(
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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:02 pm

Lightdasher wrote:Goten vs Omega Shenron
Finally thing about this is I fucking destroyed Omega Shenron with Goten just now. :lol:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Kanassa » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:13 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Lightdasher wrote:Goten vs Omega Shenron
Finally thing about this is I fucking destroyed Omega Shenron with Goten just now. :lol:
But have you beaten him with a Saibaman?
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:19 pm

Kanassa wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Lightdasher wrote:Goten vs Omega Shenron
Finally thing about this is I fucking destroyed Omega Shenron with Goten just now. :lol:
But have you beaten him with a Saibaman?
I did, but it sure wasn't easy since Saibaman had very few combo moves compared to everyone else.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Lightdasher » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:23 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Finally thing about this is I fucking destroyed Omega Shenron with Goten just now. :lol:
Don't suppose you'd have a clip? Not for the sake of proof, but I'm always up to see Goten beat the stuffing out of someone. :>
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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by emperior » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:36 am

Lightdasher wrote:I'm with Nia! At least if we're comparing XV2 to Budokai 3. At least in XV2, I can use Goten and still have a nice chance for victory. Should my opponent escape, there are multiple ways to avoid using my stamina to do the same. The same can't be said with Budokai 3, because quite a few opponents have much higher base ki. Goten vs Omega Shenron or Super Saiyan 3 Goku, for example, isn't a very fun matchup. I know I'm likely in the minority here; surely most players will want to use strong characters like Jiren, SS3 Goku, etc in games anyway, but I'm just glad XV2 gives quite a few characters a bigger chance for survival. Not all of us can turn to FighterZ to play a game where everyone's on equal standing. u_u
The Budokai ki and stamina system was fixed on Burst Limit though, which introduced a universal ki system where characters got a set amount of bars based on the ultimate. The stamina was also handled much better in BL, where an out of stamina character would come back to form in a instant once hit once, and experienced players could avoid eating a full force ultimate when out of stamina by timing a vanish right.

By the way, I don't own Budokai 3 anymore, but I'm quite sure Goten would fare better in that game against stronger opponents than he does in XV2.
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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Lightdasher » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:21 am

emperior wrote:The Budokai ki and stamina system was fixed on Burst Limit though, which introduced a universal ki system where characters got a set amount of bars based on the ultimate. The stamina was also handled much better in BL, where an out of stamina character would come back to form in a instant once hit once, and experienced players could avoid eating a full force ultimate when out of stamina by timing a vanish right.

By the way, I don't own Budokai 3 anymore, but I'm quite sure Goten would fare better in that game against stronger opponents than he does in XV2.
I still play B3 and XV2, so mechanics for both are fresh in my mind. However, I realize that experience can also depend on how well a player does in these games. Perhaps I'm just not good enough at Budokai 3 to overcome the shortcomings presented, while I can in Xenoverse 2? Or maybe I'm too sheltered from the true threats of characters in XV2 because I only play parallel quests? One thing's for certain, I must be quite the noob. :?

I can say: Budokai 3 characters come back to form as soon as they're hit while stamina broken as well. Avoiding an ultimate in that condition is a no-go, however.
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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by emperior » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:30 am

Lightdasher wrote:
emperior wrote:The Budokai ki and stamina system was fixed on Burst Limit though, which introduced a universal ki system where characters got a set amount of bars based on the ultimate. The stamina was also handled much better in BL, where an out of stamina character would come back to form in a instant once hit once, and experienced players could avoid eating a full force ultimate when out of stamina by timing a vanish right.

By the way, I don't own Budokai 3 anymore, but I'm quite sure Goten would fare better in that game against stronger opponents than he does in XV2.
I still play B3 and XV2, so mechanics for both are fresh in my mind. However, I realize that experience can also depend on how well a player does in these games. Perhaps I'm just not good enough at Budokai 3 to overcome the shortcomings presented, while I can in Xenoverse 2? Or maybe I'm too sheltered from the true threats of characters in XV2 because I only play parallel quests? One thing's for certain, I must be quite the noob. :?

I can say: Budokai 3 characters come back to form as soon as they're hit while stamina broken as well. Avoiding an ultimate in that condition is a no-go, however.
Being able to immediately recover when hit in the stamina-less state is already a much better way to handle it. Being hit by an ultimate can also be considered a good enough punishment for it, but anything more than that becomes way too much - and that's what happens in XV2, where you don't only eat an ultimate but also a long combo before it, once you get your stamina broken. And, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember there being any mechanic to break the stamina of your opponent in B3, while in XV2 it's actually quite easy to do so once your opponent is low on stamina. That's the definition of a broken mechanic in my opinion, and Xenoverse 2 would be much more enjoyable if they completely removed the stamina system and made vanishes being timing-based like perfect guards. That's just my opinion, of course, but I believe the Tenkaichi/Raging Blast games did a much better job at handling the 3D gameplay than XV and XV2 did.

Dimps is good at 2.5D fighters and they proved it in the past. I would be happier if they went back to that style of gameplay.
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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Nia » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:29 pm

emperior wrote:
Lightdasher wrote:
emperior wrote:The Budokai ki and stamina system was fixed on Burst Limit though, which introduced a universal ki system where characters got a set amount of bars based on the ultimate. The stamina was also handled much better in BL, where an out of stamina character would come back to form in a instant once hit once, and experienced players could avoid eating a full force ultimate when out of stamina by timing a vanish right.

By the way, I don't own Budokai 3 anymore, but I'm quite sure Goten would fare better in that game against stronger opponents than he does in XV2.
I still play B3 and XV2, so mechanics for both are fresh in my mind. However, I realize that experience can also depend on how well a player does in these games. Perhaps I'm just not good enough at Budokai 3 to overcome the shortcomings presented, while I can in Xenoverse 2? Or maybe I'm too sheltered from the true threats of characters in XV2 because I only play parallel quests? One thing's for certain, I must be quite the noob. :?

I can say: Budokai 3 characters come back to form as soon as they're hit while stamina broken as well. Avoiding an ultimate in that condition is a no-go, however.
Being able to immediately recover when hit in the stamina-less state is already a much better way to handle it. Being hit by an ultimate can also be considered a good enough punishment for it, but anything more than that becomes way too much - and that's what happens in XV2, where you don't only eat an ultimate but also a long combo before it, once you get your stamina broken. And, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember there being any mechanic to break the stamina of your opponent in B3, while in XV2 it's actually quite easy to do so once your opponent is low on stamina. That's the definition of a broken mechanic in my opinion, and Xenoverse 2 would be much more enjoyable if they completely removed the stamina system and made vanishes being timing-based like perfect guards. That's just my opinion, of course, but I believe the Tenkaichi/Raging Blast games did a much better job at handling the 3D gameplay than XV and XV2 did.

Dimps is good at 2.5D fighters and they proved it in the past. I would be happier if they went back to that style of gameplay.
Or you could learn how to use the Step Vanish, which doesn't require stamina, and is entirely timing based. By no means am I saying Budokai 3 is a bad game (I think in general, I think the combat is quite a bit deeper), but a lot of this honestly is just you guys sounding like you never bothered to learn the most basic of mechanics, no offense.
And as I said before, you have stuff like Limit Burst which allows you to break out of an attack even when you have no stamina. If you're getting smacked around, you can use it to not only break free, but it knocks the enemy away, giving you time to not only recover stamina, but if you have a counterattack skill, you'll have a chance to set it up. Not only that, but the Step Vanish can be used even when you're stamina broken.

The idea of Stamina in XV/XV2 is to prevent you from being able to freely spam evasion/vanish; having to use such an ability shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free. There absolutely SHOULD be a punishment for using your stamina recklessly. Just like if you pull an unsafe ultimate, you should be punished by getting Guard Broken, and being left to eat what the enemy dishes out.
Now, I won't deny that stamina breaks last a bit too long, but at the same time, a lot of this just sounds like you're wasting all your stamina and wondering why you're being slapped around for it.

And honestly, the Spike DBZ games were so laughably easy to break, due to half the attacks being glorified cutscenes you couldn't evade out of if the first hit landed. You could easily stunlock your opponent with one of those, by using one and landing another while they were getting into their "standing up" animation.

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:16 pm

Lightdasher wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Finally thing about this is I fucking destroyed Omega Shenron with Goten just now. :lol:
Don't suppose you'd have a clip? Not for the sake of proof, but I'm always up to see Goten beat the stuffing out of someone. :>
I'll give to you tomorrow.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Jackalope89 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:27 pm

Nia wrote:
emperior wrote:
Lightdasher wrote: I still play B3 and XV2, so mechanics for both are fresh in my mind. However, I realize that experience can also depend on how well a player does in these games. Perhaps I'm just not good enough at Budokai 3 to overcome the shortcomings presented, while I can in Xenoverse 2? Or maybe I'm too sheltered from the true threats of characters in XV2 because I only play parallel quests? One thing's for certain, I must be quite the noob. :?

I can say: Budokai 3 characters come back to form as soon as they're hit while stamina broken as well. Avoiding an ultimate in that condition is a no-go, however.
Being able to immediately recover when hit in the stamina-less state is already a much better way to handle it. Being hit by an ultimate can also be considered a good enough punishment for it, but anything more than that becomes way too much - and that's what happens in XV2, where you don't only eat an ultimate but also a long combo before it, once you get your stamina broken. And, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember there being any mechanic to break the stamina of your opponent in B3, while in XV2 it's actually quite easy to do so once your opponent is low on stamina. That's the definition of a broken mechanic in my opinion, and Xenoverse 2 would be much more enjoyable if they completely removed the stamina system and made vanishes being timing-based like perfect guards. That's just my opinion, of course, but I believe the Tenkaichi/Raging Blast games did a much better job at handling the 3D gameplay than XV and XV2 did.

Dimps is good at 2.5D fighters and they proved it in the past. I would be happier if they went back to that style of gameplay.
Or you could learn how to use the Step Vanish, which doesn't require stamina, and is entirely timing based. By no means am I saying Budokai 3 is a bad game (I think in general, I think the combat is quite a bit deeper), but a lot of this honestly is just you guys sounding like you never bothered to learn the most basic of mechanics, no offense.
And as I said before, you have stuff like Limit Burst which allows you to break out of an attack even when you have no stamina. If you're getting smacked around, you can use it to not only break free, but it knocks the enemy away, giving you time to not only recover stamina, but if you have a counterattack skill, you'll have a chance to set it up. Not only that, but the Step Vanish can be used even when you're stamina broken.

The idea of Stamina in XV/XV2 is to prevent you from being able to freely spam evasion/vanish; having to use such an ability shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free. There absolutely SHOULD be a punishment for using your stamina recklessly. Just like if you pull an unsafe ultimate, you should be punished by getting Guard Broken, and being left to eat what the enemy dishes out.
Now, I won't deny that stamina breaks last a bit too long, but at the same time, a lot of this just sounds like you're wasting all your stamina and wondering why you're being slapped around for it.

And honestly, the Spike DBZ games were so laughably easy to break, due to half the attacks being glorified cutscenes you couldn't evade out of if the first hit landed. You could easily stunlock your opponent with one of those, by using one and landing another while they were getting into their "standing up" animation.
Even without the step vanish (I just cannot get that timing down), if you keep an eye on your stamina, and don't spam it, you're usually pretty well off.

Not to mention, there are ways to break a character's stamina when its full. Of course, that's more about timing and set up (particularly in PvP), but doable.

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Re: Dimps, we need to talk...

Post by Phozz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:09 am

Nia wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
emperior wrote: I have sold my XV2 copy a while ago, but I remember absolutely hating the stamina system. It's not fun, and once you get your guard broken you just sit there and watch your character getting combo-ed without you being able to do anything about it. That's definitely not a good mechanic, and I hope they will get rid of it with the next game.
I feel like Tenkaichi 3 sort of nailed the gameplay for a 3D DBZ game so I hope they will be inspired from it for their next game. Even though in my opinion they should revert to the glorious 2.5D gameplay Dimps DBZ game always had before the first Xenoverse. It's less broken, more fun, and keeps the high speed battles feeling of XV2. Shin Budokai 2 is a prime example of how good a 2.5D DBZ game can be if done right.
With some workarounds they could be able to keep the multi-team battles, DB hunt thing and other gimmicks they introduced in PQs - my idea would be of seamlessly switch the gameplay from 2.5D to 3D after the fights are over.
Exactly. Because of the stamina I can only play XV2 in short bursts because of how annoying it is. Imo, Budokai 3 handled stamina perfectly. I forget exactly how it happened, either after Hyper Mode or losing your transformation, but your character would stand still and catch their breath for a few moments and you had to press all 4 buttons to stop it. Then the action starts again. No 2 minutes of sitting there while the slow stamina bar recharges to full.
It only takes a long time to recover if you get stamina broken (or just plain run out) when you're low on stamina. You recover it faster (when not stamina broken) on the ground than when flying, and it stops regenerating whenever you're dashing, attacking, or step vanishing. Not to mention, you can use Limit Burst to cancel out getting ragdolled by a stamina break now.
I will say I think there is somewhat of an over-reliance on stamina management, but a lot of this is really overblown.

Instead of trying to vanish out of the first hit of a combo, wait until the enemy goes for a bigger strike, or if you do vanish out of one, immediately block or dash backward (dashing is easier, but with good timing, you can also vanish step).
Also, a standard vanish only costs one bar of stamina if you're blocking or attacking, so you can use that to spare a bit of stamina that way.

(Also, in Budokai 3, fatigue built up from dodging, especially that games equivelant of vanish which cost Ki too, and just plain old taking damage. If you got hit while low on stamina, you'd revert from your transformations and be left helpless, and generally had to eat a hefty attack from an enemy, so I'm not seeing much difference here. If anything, you were actually more helpless in Budokai 3, since you also needed Ki to dodge.)
These are facts.

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