Competitive DB FighterZ is being shutdown by DB right owners.

[LightBing]

Recently various tournament organizers had to remove Dragon Ball FighterZ from their line up's for reasons they can't/won't disclose. All we know is that it's interference from those who own Dragon Ball.

Bandai Namco likely isn't behind this, their other games continue to appear on these same tournaments and they have interest in FighterZ getting the exposure tournaments provide.
That leaves Toei and Shueisha.

Here's a explanation to what's likely happening that I copied from reddit by NagataLockII:

Spoiler:

Bandai buys the rights to Dragon Ball's characters from Toei for their video game.
Bandai hires ASW to develop their game using the characters licensed from Toei
Players buy the game at the retail level and Bandai gets the revenue from the sales, recuperating the expense of paying Toei (essentially gambling it'll sell).
It's important to get that particular aspect of things out of the way. Toei (who own Dragon Ball) got their money already. All these events that we love to play in is making everyone BUT Toei money. They're sitting on the outside going "where's mine?" They can't go after Bandai as they own the rights (that's why the Dragon Ball World Tour is unaffected) but everyone else hasn't paid them a dime.

This is literally how copyright works all over the world. If you want to use someone's intellectual property, you have to pay for it. We're only really seeing this come to the forefront now with video games because the rise of Esports has created a massive influx of revenue that old grassroots never generated. In this case, revenue that Toei is not getting a piece of.

What this situation comes down to is whether event organizers are willing to pay a licensing fee to use the DBFZ IP. When you see things like Mr. Wizard calling DBFZ a "one and done" what he's really saying is "the cost of acquiring the license is more than the projected revenue it'll generate at EVO."

By this point, Toei has probably issued a figure (I'd guess around $25000) to every major event organizer around the world. You can pay to use the license or you're SOL. I'm really hoping it doesn't come down to that. I love DBFZ. I play, stream, organize events, and have built an amazing community around it. That said; I also work for a major corporation in my actual career and know how these things work. The realist in me is very sad today.

The irony of this is that FighterZ just won ESPN's game of the year and best fighting game at the Game Awards. It also had the most entrants and highest viewership at EVO(basically the Olympics of fighting games for those unaware).
Their greed is so short-sighted that it might destroy a huge source of money and exposition in a growing industry for Dragon Ball.

Just wanted to bring this topic forth since it's barely being talked about or at all by the Dragon Ball community at large. Reminder that those who own Dragon Ball care more about a few bucks than thousands of fans who love their IP.

Here's tweets from organizers who had to remove FighterZ from their tournament.
https://twitter.com/CEOJebailey/status/ ... 5834188800
https://twitter.com/MarkMan23/status/10 ... 2976221184
https://twitter.com/aksysgames/status/1 ... 8477297664

[SaiyanGod117]

Corporate greed sounds like Toei and judging from prior history it probably was them.

[Forte224]

Even without any evidence I'd assume it was Toei. They're really just the worst.

[KBABZ]

Really sad, even Nintendo are more lenient than this regarding Super Smash Bros. I get that this is what copyright law is about, but to me this sort of free promotion is rarely ever a bad thing and keeps the online community and demand for the game thriving (and allows you to make DLC to sell to them).

[AgitoZ]

Like I mentioned in the main thread, I'd like some more concrete evidence as to what's happening. I don't think any productive discussion will be brought about before more information comes out. Especially with Toei's pretty terrible (and mostly well deserved) public image.

The irony of this is that FighterZ just won ESPN's game of the year and best fighting game at the Game Awards. It also had the most entrants and highest viewership at EVO(basically the Olympics of fighting games for those unaware).

Those awards are absolutely meaningless to most people at large. ESPN's award was only an online article from what I've seen. And the Game Award wasn't even one of the ones presented on stage. Both of these accolades are negligible.

As for as EVO goes, for a new game it had really good numbers. However, it had the most entrants that year. Street Fighter V had 2,484 entrants and DBFZ had 2,575. SFV is not well liked but DBFZ only beat it by about a hundred entrants. And if it had entered in 2017, SFV's number of entrants (2,622) would have beaten it. SFV during its first year at EVO had 5,065. Making it the actual game with the most entrants of all time. And funnily enough Smash 4 also beat DBFZ's numbers at that event.

Its viewership numbers were also very good for a fighting game. It doubled the prior year's highest viewed game at the event. Maybe Toei or whoever wants some of those viewers? I don't know. However, they aren't spectacular compared to other "Esports".

Their greed is so short-sighted that it might destroy a huge source of money and exposition in a growing industry for Dragon Ball.

If Toei is responsible, then that could be true. I think pro fighting game tournaments could potentially lead to more people being interested in DBZ but I think at this point the DBZ brand has attracted more people to the game than vice-versa. If it did become a big problem, Toei could just throw tons of money at the scene lilke Warner Bros./Netherrealm does and prop up less than stellar games.

Just wanted to bring this topic forth since it's barely being talked about or at all by the Dragon Ball community at large. Reminder that those who own Dragon Ball care more about a few bucks than thousands of fans who love their IP.

I think it's not being talk about because most people in general don't care about the competitive fighting game scene. "Esports" has become very big but fighting games are at the very bottom of the barrel for everything from viewership to purses. DBFZ did very well but that does not translate into tons of people being concerned with its young competive scene.


Overall, I think Toei or whoever's assessment that the competitive scene is negligible at the moment to their profit margin is probably correct. But that's not gonna be good PR. And stifling a young, growing scene won't turn it into an asset anytime soon.

[goku the krump dancer]

So lets be solution oriented here, how do we as fans combat this bull shit fuckery (because thats exactly what it is). Apparently Smash went through a similar thing with Nintendo and they came to a solid ground conclusion, so how can we do the same?

[LightBing]

Like I mentioned in the main thread, I'd like some more concrete evidence as to what's happening. I don't think any productive discussion will be brought about before more information comes out. Especially with Toei's pretty terrible (and mostly well deserved) public image.

If by evidence you mean a tournament organizer coming forth and saying Toei demanded 20k for them to stream the game or face our lawyers, it won't happen.
It's not confirmed but it's pretty obvious who's at fault taking into account history and context.

Those awards are absolutely meaningless to most people at large. ESPN's award was only an online article from what I've seen. And the Game Award wasn't even one of the ones presented on stage. Both of these accolades are negligible.

As for as EVO goes, for a new game it had really good numbers. However, it had the most entrants that year. Street Fighter V had 2,484 entrants and DBFZ had 2,575. SFV is not well liked but DBFZ only beat it by about a hundred entrants. And if it had entered in 2017, SFV's number of entrants (2,622) would have beaten it. SFV during its first year at EVO had 5,065. Making it the actual game with the most entrants of all time. And funnily enough Smash 4 also beat DBFZ's numbers at that event.

Its viewership numbers were also very good for a fighting game. It doubled the prior year's highest viewed game at the event. Maybe Toei or whoever wants some of those viewers? I don't know. However, they aren't spectacular compared to other "Esports".

Someone calling your game the best is not negligible, it becomes one of the adjectives used when describing the game. It automatically emerges in discussions where it would appear before had it not won. It's a positive domino affect.

250k peak people watching your game on twitch isn't something most E-Sports do. I never said the game had the most entrants ever at EVO.

I think it's not being talk about because most people in general don't care about the competitive fighting game scene. "Esports" has become very big but fighting games are at the very bottom of the barrel for everything from viewership to purses. DBFZ did very well but that does not translate into tons of people being concerned with its young competive scene.


Overall, I think Toei or whoever's assessment that the competitive scene is negligible at the moment to their profit margin is probably correct. But that's not gonna be good PR. And stifling a young, growing scene won't turn it into an asset anytime soon.

You're right most people don't care about the competitive scene but I'm not even going from that angle. My angle is a company putting pocket money (to them) above thousands of fans. This concerns every Dragon Ball fan. This might not affect you directly in your consumption of Dragon Ball but the petty little thing they pursue tomorrow might.

So lets be solution oriented here, how do we as fans combat this bull shit fuckery (because thats exactly what it is). Apparently Smash went through a similar thing with Nintendo and they came to a solid ground conclusion, so how can we do the same?

Boycotting them and letting them know. Making our insatisfaction heard until they have reasons to be concerned about.

[VegettoEX]

Moving this to the video games sub-forum. OK to have a separate discussion thread for this specific angle (outside of the larger thread for the game).

[Lord Beerus]

It's a massive shame there are some outside forces shutting down the opportunities for FighterZ to be featured in fighting tournament out of what seems to be greed.

FighterZ is really the first Dragon Ball games to have gained some kind of serious recognition from the FGC. And that recognition could play a significant part extending the lifespan of the game with additional characters in maintain interest and provide more income for everyone involved. It's a shame that the Toei can't see the bigger picture to FighterZ getting all the publicity that it is in this fashion.

[AgitoZ]

If by evidence you mean a tournament organizer coming forth and saying Toei demanded 20k for them to stream the game or face our lawyers, it won't happen.
It's not confirmed but it's pretty obvious who's at fault taking into account history and context.

Well then there's not much to do because I don't know how big the money issue is. Is it a 100 or 100k for stream rights or just rights to just have it at a tournament? Does Toei state that they can't make money from it?

What history does Toei have with shutting down tournaments? Or do you perhaps mean what happens to Team Four Star by them? In both cases, Toei would be well within their rights.

Someone calling your game the best is not negligible, it becomes one of the adjectives used when describing the game. It automatically emerges in discussions where it would appear before had it not won. It's a positive domino affect.

At most it's a blurb they can put on the back of a re-release. The majority of people don't care that ESPN or the Game Awards called it the best fighting game. Awards don't produce sales nor do they produce entrants at tournaments.

250k peak people watching your game on twitch isn't something most E-Sports do. I never said the game had the most entrants ever at EVO.

I'd suggest looking at sites like Esports Charts. 250k viewers is very small. The world finals for League of Legends got 205 million people watching. It's big for fighting games and EVO but not to "Esports" at all.

And I clarified that it had the most entrants at this year's EVO. I believe making that distinction clear makes the accolade mean a lot less.

You're right most people don't care about the competitive scene but I'm not even going from that angle. My angle is a company putting pocket money (to them) above thousands of fans. This concerns every Dragon Ball fan. This might not affect you directly in your consumption of Dragon Ball but the petty little thing they pursue tomorrow might.

It most certainly does not concern every Dragon Ball fan. It concerns a subset of a subset of fans. People who are fans of fighting games and DBFZ in particular and either watching or participating in tournaments.

I'm failing to see the slippery slope of how not getting non-officially sanctioned tournaments will lead to other things being taken away by Toei. And given that there still aren't any specific details as to what exactly they're demanding it's even harder to tell how it would.

FighterZ is really the first Dragon Ball games to have gained some kind of serious recognition from the FGC. And that recognition could play a significant part extending the lifespan of the game with additional characters in maintain interest and provide more income for everyone involved. It's a shame that the Toei can't see the bigger picture to FighterZ getting all the publicity that it is in this fashion.

As far as I know, Xenoverse 1 and 2 were never recognized by the "FGC" and those games have had no problem to continue receiving support and DLC.

Far more people than just tournament goers or watchers buy that stuff. I imagine Bandai would have a hard time making money from DLC if that were the case.

[LightBing]

Well then there's not much to do because I don't know how big the money issue is. Is it a 100 or 100k for stream rights or just rights to just have it at a tournament? Does Toei state that they can't make money from it?

What history does Toei have with shutting down tournaments? Or do you perhaps mean what happens to Team Four Star by them? In both cases, Toei would be well within their rights.

Toei probably doesn't make money from FighterZ, they already made it when they sold the right's to Bandai Namco. It's the reason why no World Tour tournaments have been shut down Bandai has the right's so they can't touch them.

Does the value matter? If it was simply symbolic and in accord to the dimension of the tournament in question then I doubt tournament organizers would cancel it.
Even if they are within their right to demand money, their attitude still sucks. That's doesn't excuse anything, if that's what you're trying to say. Just because one is allowed to piss on the street, doesn't chance the fact you're pissing on the street.

At most it's a blurb they can put on the back of a re-release. The majority of people don't care that ESPN or the Game Awards called it the best fighting game. Awards don't produce sales nor do they produce entrants at tournaments.

Word-of-mouth does and this contributes to it, you're looking at this to narrowly. I'm not saying it's an extreme event but it's not irrelevant, it builds the brand with trust and quality.

I'd suggest looking at sites like Esports Charts. 250k viewers is very small. The world finals for League of Legends got 205 million people watching. It's big for fighting games and EVO but not to "Esports" at all.

I was clearly referring to twitch. I looked though that list first page and only 4 events had more peak viewership. Regardless like you said fighting games are a league below other e-sports. Although I don't see why that's relevant for this discussion, are you trying to undermine it's success or something?

It most certainly does not concern every Dragon Ball fan. It concerns a subset of a subset of fans. People who are fans of fighting games and DBFZ in particular and either watching or participating in tournaments.

I'm failing to see the slippery slope of how not getting non-officially sanctioned tournaments will lead to other things being taken away by Toei. And given that there still aren't any specific details as to what exactly they're demanding it's even harder to tell how it would.

Couldn't disagree more. This subset of people are part of the Dragon Ball fanbase and they are screwing us for no apparent justifiable reason. If they screw one, they can screw every other single fan of Dragon Ball.

[Nickolaidas]

If by evidence you mean a tournament organizer coming forth and saying Toei demanded 20k for them to stream the game or face our lawyers, it won't happen.
It's not confirmed but it's pretty obvious who's at fault taking into account history and context.

Well then there's not much to do because I don't know how big the money issue is. Is it a 100 or 100k for stream rights or just rights to just have it at a tournament? Does Toei state that they can't make money from it?

What history does Toei have with shutting down tournaments? Or do you perhaps mean what happens to Team Four Star by them? In both cases, Toei would be well within their rights.

Someone calling your game the best is not negligible, it becomes one of the adjectives used when describing the game. It automatically emerges in discussions where it would appear before had it not won. It's a positive domino affect.

At most it's a blurb they can put on the back of a re-release. The majority of people don't care that ESPN or the Game Awards called it the best fighting game. Awards don't produce sales nor do they produce entrants at tournaments.

250k peak people watching your game on twitch isn't something most E-Sports do. I never said the game had the most entrants ever at EVO.

I'd suggest looking at sites like Esports Charts. 250k viewers is very small. The world finals for League of Legends got 205 million people watching. It's big for fighting games and EVO but not to "Esports" at all.

And I clarified that it had the most entrants at this year's EVO. I believe making that distinction clear makes the accolade mean a lot less.

You're right most people don't care about the competitive scene but I'm not even going from that angle. My angle is a company putting pocket money (to them) above thousands of fans. This concerns every Dragon Ball fan. This might not affect you directly in your consumption of Dragon Ball but the petty little thing they pursue tomorrow might.

It most certainly does not concern every Dragon Ball fan. It concerns a subset of a subset of fans. People who are fans of fighting games and DBFZ in particular and either watching or participating in tournaments.

I'm failing to see the slippery slope of how not getting non-officially sanctioned tournaments will lead to other things being taken away by Toei. And given that there still aren't any specific details as to what exactly they're demanding it's even harder to tell how it would.

FighterZ is really the first Dragon Ball games to have gained some kind of serious recognition from the FGC. And that recognition could play a significant part extending the lifespan of the game with additional characters in maintain interest and provide more income for everyone involved. It's a shame that the Toei can't see the bigger picture to FighterZ getting all the publicity that it is in this fashion.

As far as I know, Xenoverse 1 and 2 were never recognized by the "FGC" and those games have had no problem to continue receiving support and DLC.

Far more people than just tournament goers or watchers buy that stuff. I imagine Bandai would have a hard time making money from DLC if that were the case.

I agree with everything you said, 100%.

In the end, it's the casuals who make Bamco rich, not the FGC. If SonicFox and Kazunoko and the other 200 competitive hardcore FG fans won't buy DBF2 because they won't be able to do a second EVO or something, well … it won't matter a bit to Shueisha/Toei. DBF not being at EVO won't give it a lower score at sites, won't make the gamers be angry with its content, won't make me and millions of fans not buy the game.

Would I like DBF to keep being at EVO and help make FGC fans take the franchise more seriously? Sure.
But it's not what I really wanted out of DBF. What I wanted, I got it. A solid game with amazing visuals, presentation and gameplay. In the end, I'm content.

[AgitoZ]

Does the value matter? If it was simply symbolic and in accord to the dimension of the tournament in question then I doubt tournament organizers would cancel it.
Even if they are within their right to demand money, their attitude still sucks. That's doesn't excuse anything, if that's what you're trying to say. Just because one is allowed to piss on the street, doesn't chance the fact you're pissing on the street.

You don't seem to quite understand my response. I'm asking for specifics. Even in your response you have no idea what organizers are dealing with and are making tons of assumptions.

You also ignore my question as to what points to Toei being the only culprit and what "history and context" I need to take into account.

Getting mad at their attitude isn't gonna change anything. Especially, again, that we have no concrete evidence to point to or analyze. I brought up their rights because you brought up their supposed past doing these kinds of situations and the only one I can think of is the TFS incidents which I had little sympathy for. Not to say it's similar but that's the only one I can think of.

There are plenty of things I can think to criticize Toei over such as their recent censorings of the movies, but I'm gonna wait until more is revealed towards this specific situation.

And it might be a language barrier issue, but your analogy isn't exactly changing my opinion. Most civilized places don't allow you to piss in the street in the first place.

Word-of-mouth does and this contributes to it, you're looking at this to narrowly. I'm not saying it's an extreme event but it's not irrelevant, it builds the brand with trust and quality.

Awards from big corporate conglomerates are not "word-of-mouth." DBZF already has had great word-of-mouth and the awards near the end of this year did not contribute at all to it.

I was clearly referring to twitch. I looked though that list first page and only 4 events had more peak viewership. Regardless like you said fighting games are a league below other e-sports. Although I don't see why that's relevant for this discussion, are you trying to undermine it's success or something?

Nothing about your response implies that you only meant twitch viewership. Even if it did, what little info I've dug through shows that DBFZ has never gotten that accolade. Esports like CSGO, Fortnite, LoL, Dota 2, all regularly get more viewers. I'd like to know what list you're looking at cause I don't see anywhere where EVO was the fifth highest watched. Which depending on the difference in viewership would not be that impressive.

If viewership is irrelevant to this discussion, why did you bring it up in the first place? You mentioned that Toei could be losing a huge source of money when in reality if they wanted tons of stream viewers they should make a DBZ multiplayer online battle arena game.

Couldn't disagree more. This subset of people are part of the Dragon Ball fanbase and they are screwing us for no apparent justifiable reason. If they screw one, they can screw every other single fan of Dragon Ball.

No.

[GTx10]

As a person who finds FighterZ's "neat" at best I say this is "meh" at best. Maybe my info is wrong (and if it is correct me) but if these "events" pay Toei/Shuisha rights money THEN they can host the game at said event right? So why can't the event pay up and BOOM issue fixed?! It seems (to me) that the "real issue" is those who make money playing FighterZ at events are being screwed and THAT is the main issue, not that the game simply is banned from these events.
Heroes and XV2 seems to be the "it" thing lately more so than FighterZ, maybe the gamr has just run its course?

[Quebaz]

Heroes and XV2 seems to be the "it" thing lately more so than FighterZ, maybe the gamr has just run its course?

I think it's pretty shitty that this is happening because Shueisha (or whoever it is) wants it, and not because the players themselves have stopped playing it. It's a pretty shitty message to send, and will influence the reception of a sequel, should it happen (it most likely will).

[AgitoZ]

Toei Animation's Twitter wrote, "Apologies, but we have no knowledge about preventing DBFZ tournaments."

It doesn't excuse them fully, since it could be Japan doing it without the English branches' knowledge.

[supersaiyanZero]

As far as E-sports go, competitive fighting games have been on the rise year after year and something like this can only hurt the FighterZ line. Not only did it beat out Street Fighter V in a huge milestone, (which when you sit back and think about it, it's freaking Street Fighter), but also introduced a huge majority of us to the competitive fighting game scene. A lot of us had no idea who SonixFox or Go1 were before this game came out.

As for winning ESPN's e-sports game of the year, I think that's a huge deal. The idea that a Dragonball game can win an award centered around a competitive scene from ESPN is a wonderful act of recognition that many of us thought would be impossible and hopefully a sign of things to come. At the very least it's a sign that AWS is heading in the right direction with this franchise. So all this talk about minimizing FighterZ's accomplishments it's first year out is a bit silly.