Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon May 25, 2015 7:22 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:I get your points, but you chose a very bad comparison to show a Faulconer fan. That clip in the dub was amplified in epicness with that music, and is probably one of the most well-regarded among people who prefer the dub. = P
Haha, you've got me there. :lol:

But, in all fairness, I'm okay with people liking what they want to. I mean, who am I to judge? It's just that he was making what I perceived to be ill informed statements, and I rebutted with my own set of opinions, and I tried to explain those reasons as best as I could. I certainly don't want people to think I'm trying to insult their views.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Zenkai » Mon May 25, 2015 7:33 pm

Bullza wrote:
It makes it sound dated and older than it is. A series that ran into mid 90's yet has dreary 70's sounding music. There's no intensity in the soundtrack at all, it kicks all of the excitement out of the show entirely by having this monotonous music that sounded the same throughout the 10 years it aired.

It's no surprise to me that they replaced the music when it came to the American broadcast and Kai.

The Kai score was far better, plagiarised or not.
When you say that it sounds dated, are you talking about the music itself, or how the old recordings of the music sound?

I honestly don't see how you can think that the orchestral music itself sounds dated (if in fact you do). Do modern movies with orchestral soundtracks sound dated to you? Would you rather have the new Star Wars movie use rock bands and synthesized rock music instead of the orchestral score?

I should note that I'm a bit biased. I'm a classical saxophonist and appreciate orchestras and concert bands. I also like the fact that Kikuchi included a prominant baritone saxophone in his orchestra.

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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Bullza » Mon May 25, 2015 7:38 pm

That's crazy talk. Dated does not equal bad, and shame on you for perpetuating that mindset.
That's not really what I was getting at. A 70's movie with 70's music like Jaws or Rocky is all well and good, an anime series that ran into the mid 90's yet still has music that sounds like it belongs in the 70's is just so out of place.

I wouldn't want to watch Attack on Titan with 90's music either.

It's not just that though, the music just isn't any good in general anyway. It's very repetitive, very boring and almost depressing to listen to.

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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Bullza » Mon May 25, 2015 8:01 pm

You also must not have heard much of it if you think there are no intense tracks, and that it sounds monotonous.
That link is exactly what I'm talking about. In no way was that track intense, there's no tension building in that song, it again sounds similar to every other track in the Japanese score (hence repetitive) and reminds me of the kind of music I'd likely to hear in an old Bruce Lee movie and not a DBZ movie released in the 90's.
Here's an example, in Vegeta's Final Flash scene, the Japanese version uses a dynamic, building ominous piece:
There was hardly any music there and what there was again sounded similar and again sucked all of the energy, tension and excitement out of the scene and made the 4 minutes were he was just charging up an attack seem pretty boring.
On the other hand, the FUNimation dub version uses the "Dragon Theme" (which is very repetitive, with the same notes constantly repeating throughout the entire track), and what does that scene have to do with Shen Long anyway?
It doesn't have to have anything to do with the Dragon. It built up the tension perfectly with what was happening on screen. Thus is something the Japanese version failed to do altogether.

Also when I say they're repetitive I'm not talking about the tracks themselves repeating but all the tracks sounding the same. The Kikuchi score all sounded very much the same, it had that same generic "dun dun dun" tune for damn near all it's "intense" and fight music.

Changing the score is the best decision they made when bringing it to the west. They've even changed it for Japan itself now, both Kai and Kai 2 would rather use original music than the Kikuchi music and I don't blame them.

The Yamamoto score was good. Kikuchis score was fine for the original Dragon Ball when it was older, looked older and was more of a mystical adventure fantasy series. It was a horrible fit for Dragon Ball Z though.

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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by EXBadguy » Mon May 25, 2015 8:53 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote: Here's an example, in Vegeta's Final Flash scene, the Japanese version uses a dynamic, building ominous piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dd_jtACCt4

On the other hand, the FUNimation dub version uses the "Dragon Theme" (which is very repetitive, with the same notes constantly repeating throughout the entire track), and what does that scene have to do with Shen Long anyway? The only decent part is at the end when Vegeta's Super Saiyan theme plays, but that track is also sort of repetitive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1yH7SIOkwU
I get your points, but you chose a very bad comparison to show a Faulconer fan. That clip in the dub was amplified in epicness with that music, and is probably one of the most well-regarded among people who prefer the dub. = P
.
Yeah, what he said.

Anyway, on topic, I definitely prefer Tokunaga over Kikuchi. His music feels so lively while Kikuchi's Z music sounds so freaking boring, though I do enjoy it occasionally and give it credit for setting its tone when something intense is about to come. He still peaked after the end of DB though. I personally wish Tokunaga did the Z movies, or better yet, work together with Menza and work on the soundtrack on most of the Z movies while putting in "unofficial" rock/metal insert songs from time to time. Or better, they could've worked on the two latest movies.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by MagicBox » Mon May 25, 2015 9:48 pm

Whether or not the Faulconer Productions crew did anything worth listening to is irrelevant to a thread talking about Kikuchi and Tokunaga.

Anyway, Kikuchi tops Tokunaga on my own personal list, but they're both amazing. Even if I was ranking every composer the franchise ever had (in any country), Kikuchi and Tokunaga would still come in first and second place, respectively. Kikuchi tops my list with his hummable melodies, wonderful orchestral arrangements, and consistent use of leitmotif. Everyone's got their own theme (Piccolo, Kuririn, Muten Roshi, Vegeta, Gohan, the list goes on). With Tokunaga, gone are the character themes, but the lighthearted, bouncing sense of "Dragon Ball" adventure comes through in his compositions and theme song arrangements. He wonderfully carried on Kikuchi's legacy and tone. It's such a crime that he doesn't get the appreciation (and work) he deserves.

I cherish the anniversary film's soundtrack CD and am anxiously waiting for Toei or Columbia or who-the-hell-ever to finally wake up and realize that the rest of GT's soundtrack deserves an official release.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:08 am

Bullza wrote:
I can't tell if you're trolling.
Nope.
It helps make the score more timeless if anything, which fits better into the Dragon Ball world.




You look like another Ignorant American whlo thinks his shitty Faulconer music is good, actually faulconer score is the one which sounded like a low budget dated 80's Synth which were all same,boring and terribly repetitive with same tones being hit,kikuchi score had suspense,emotions, goofy and good fighting music.

Kikuchi score>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yamamoto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>garbage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>faulconer score(Except few tracks)
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Bullza » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:12 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
I can't tell if you're trolling.
Nope.
It helps make the score more timeless if anything, which fits better into the Dragon Ball world.




You look like another Ignorant American whlo thinks his shitty Faulconer music is good, actually faulconer score is the one which sounded like a low budget dated 80's Synth which were all same,boring and terribly repetitive with same tones being hit,kikuchi score had suspense,emotions, goofy and good fighting music.

Kikuchi score>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yamamoto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>garbage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>faulconer score(Except few tracks)
Why are 3 of your 8 posts quoting something I said from 2015?

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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by RoarkVegeta » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:30 am

A bit of an older thread, but the topic will also be relevant so what the hell.

The Kikuchi score is Dragon Ball to me, and it's hard to imagine having anything else there. I, like many others, was introduced to the English dub, and the broadcast music. Is it good music? Sure. But after the original Dragon Ball started airing here in the US, I couldn't get over how cool the music sounded, and how well it fit, and I have distinct memories of sitting in front of my TV whistling along to the theme of Goku riding Kintoun (which is somehow unreleased). It's hard for me to go back and read the manga without having background music play in my head. For example, when I read Goku turning into Super Saiya-jin for the first time, it's just inevitable that the Movie 1 BGM is going to start playing in my head.


For Tokunaga, I'll admit, I haven't watched all of GT. I have the Dragon Box, so I really have no excuse. But for me, it just didn't feel the same. There are some fantastic moments that have great music in GT. The scene from episode 64 with Goku and Kuririn fighting on Kame House with the "Hitori Janai" instrumental playing in the background will ALWAYS bring a tear to my eye, no matter what.

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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by floofychan333 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:30 pm

Kikuchi wins in every way. Tokunaga's score ruined an already terrible Path to Power, while Kikuchi was able to continuously save terrible movies (Broly 1, both Cooler movies) with his music.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:42 pm

Yes,I think Path to Power was not really that good with Tokunaga Score,it worked well for dark space adventure sci-fi Dragon ball GT but not really dragon ball movie and the Kikuchi Score is my favourite from All 4 Sumitomo, Kikuchi,Yamamoto and Tokunaga and i don't think Funimation should have replaced the Kikuchi's Masterpiece soundtracks for dbz in place of some Dated Synthesizers with same music playing and also,the composer keeps hitting the same Tone that's the main problem with that music and it keeps extending and non Stop playing in whole episode and thus,its so loud and Obnoxious, i don't see how anyone can hate that amazing Kikuchi soundtracks, db and dbz Japanese soundtracks are one of the reason i got into it and its so Natural compared to Faulconer whose tracks makes the show more like an AMV than dbz and changes the tone away even Kaiserneko from TFS dub said that Faulconer scores were totally unfitting for series that's why they also use original soundtracks and i tried to watch dbz English dub with Faulconer soundtracks and i just couldn't watch it becoz it felt so bland and dull and more like a Saturday morning cartoon than dbz with faulconer score,If its music wasn't cheap and not computerized electronic music than it could have been intresting but excluding some soundtracks his music was very dull,boring and bland and other than nostalgia i don't see anyone preferring it over Kikuchi soundtracks and also,Shunsuke Kikuchi was a very demanded composer in Japan at the time of dbz and he also composed music for saint Seiya,Kamen rider and many other shows and in an Survey in Japan last year,for best anime soundtrack,db/z soundtracks came at no.2 position and this shows how awesome they were also,Latin America loves it and many of Japanese fans were actually dissatisfied with Yammato score in kai and if anyone thinks that dbz original score was dated or bad then i suppose he must be hating all classic 90's anime like Yu yu hakusho, fist of the north star,sailor moon,Cowboy Bebop, Gundam wings,Akira,etc. Becoz all had the similar Orchestra score and despite all these Japan ranked db soundtracks the no. 2 that proves that it isn't bad or dull or whatever the dub fans say,they are timeless classics and dubs should never modify original work like Funimation did by replacing the music
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Black_Liger » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:46 pm

While Kikuchi IS I get the feeling that if Tokunaga had continued to be db's composer, he would have become the best, he was not given a decent budget at first, but by the time of path to power, the quality of his music was jawinspiring!.

For example, I don't think kikuchi would be able to compose something like this even if his life depended on it!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFQnyIO ... Ar0EcOdeIX

So much power, so much etheareal feelings, so much raw emotion.

I people here are criticizing this?... I can only shake my head.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:57 pm

Black_Liger wrote:by the time of path to power, the quality of his music was jawinspiring!.
Path to Power was one of the first things he scored for Dragon Ball.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Black_Liger » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:11 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Black_Liger wrote:by the time of path to power, the quality of his music was jawinspiring!.
Path to Power was one of the first things he scored for Dragon Ball.
Actually he scored gt first, but I did a quick research and GT and Path to power are only a month apart, damn, I got confused over the fact that Latino audio for dragon ball hasn't aged well for the series, but the movie is actually crystal clear so I thought it was newer. :P
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:19 pm

Black_Liger wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Black_Liger wrote:by the time of path to power, the quality of his music was jawinspiring!.
Path to Power was one of the first things he scored for Dragon Ball.
Actually he scored gt first, but I did a quick research and GT and Path to power are only a month apart, damn, I got confused over the fact that Latino audio for dragon ball hasn't aged well for the series, but the movie is actually crystal clear so I thought it was newer. :P
Path to Power premiered a few weeks after GT aired, but by necessity of being an actual movie, had a much longer production schedule. In all likelihood, it was scored either before or at the same time as the very beginning of GT.
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Re: Battle of Scores: Tokunaga vs. Kikuchi

Post by Black_Liger » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:17 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Black_Liger wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Path to Power was one of the first things he scored for Dragon Ball.
Actually he scored gt first, but I did a quick research and GT and Path to power are only a month apart, damn, I got confused over the fact that Latino audio for dragon ball hasn't aged well for the series, but the movie is actually crystal clear so I thought it was newer. :P
Path to Power premiered a few weeks after GT aired, but by necessity of being an actual movie, had a much longer production schedule. In all likelihood, it was scored either before or at the same time as the very beginning of GT.
Oh, that makes sense now that you mention it, and I'm pretty sure they took their sweet time with it because it features some of the best animation the franchise has ever seen.
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