Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

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Ripper 30
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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:06 am

MarcBigleague wrote:During the Cell arc I hear a lot of these two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dFJz7kmNK8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXrLhDF8xE0

I personally feel they give off a different level of intensity than previous "action" pieces like M814 B which was mostly played during Saiyan and Freeza Arc. I know the two I linked above were made for Movie 7 and not the show, but their use in later parts of the show and not in Saiyan/Freeza arc did make the show feel evolving to me.

Also, btw, I believe M814 B does use snare drums and I'm sure many others do too lol.
agreed,as they started to progress further the Soundtracks clearly had the evolving feel specially this episode Ending Track From Boo Arc which is my Favorite (who would dislike it) https://youtu.be/ijMVw5zxvLY

Or this fighting music which seems intense to me what's dated about this https://youtu.be/CI8SzHziPWg

But we all can agree this piece is True Masterpiece :
https://youtu.be/0v_jLoJcgns
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by MarcBigleague » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:21 am

Ripper 30 wrote:Or this fighting music which seems intense to me what's dated about this https://youtu.be/CI8SzHziPWg
Oh wow I don't even remember this one but it sounds amazing. It's has a rock tone to it.

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Rukawa11 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:19 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:Or this fighting music which seems intense to me what's dated about this https://youtu.be/CI8SzHziPWg
This is possibly the only Kikuchi piece where there's a dominant guitar track, but there aren't many like it. It's still no Solid State Scouter, though.

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by DefinitiveDubs » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:03 pm

Rukawa11 wrote:
DefinitiveDubs wrote:The biggest problem that Yamamoto and Sumitomo have is that they want to score Z like it's Power Rangers. They see Z as a juvenile show for children with bright colors, energy beams and silly puns. And while that's sort of true, they forget that Z also has a story with character development, and mostly takes itself seriously unlike OG and Super. So their music is always over-the-top and so loud that it overtakes the dialogue sometimes. Moments that are supposed to be powerful and emotionally charged come across as cartoony and one-dimensional.
Depending on how you look at it, DBZ can indeed be viewed as a profound storyline that could rival the likes of Evangelion and Ideon (I'm not being sarcastic at all here), but that's totally beside the point. So Yamamoto and Sumitomo's problem lies in creating colorful, energetic, cartoony music that override the dialogue, and that's not supposed to suit a Shonen Fighting Anime like DBZ? So are you saying Yuyu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, Flame of Recca and technically every other Shonen fighting Anime from 1995+ are cartoony for having such bgm? You've mentioned something about Bruce Faulconer's score not suiting DBZ for that same reason, but have you heard Toshio Masuda's score on Naruto Part I? The explosive guitars completely smoke Faulconer's work, and not only do they override the dialogue, there are times where you can't hear what the characters are saying from how upbeat and energetic the music is and there could be no better way to express the intensity of a Shonen fighting Anime.

Kikuchi's DBZ has been the only odd case among all Shonen fighting Anime. Even when considering its so-called Wuxia roots, it shouldn't be hard to realize that you simply cannot have a dull bgm without even a freakin drum beat playing at a scene where two characters are exchanging blows at an unprecedented speed. I still wouldn't want Faulconer's music at such scenes, though (many sounded like Linkin Park instrumentals that didn't make it to Hybrid Theory or Meteora).

Having ten or fifteen Solid State Scouter-esque bgm would've captured the intensity of the DBZ fights like no other.
Except the tracks for Naruto and Hakusho are comedic for the funny moments and badass for the badass moments. It never gives me the impression that it doesn't take itself seriously like Kai's music does. There's nuance and subtlety in other shonen tracks that I don't get from Yamamoto's work. It all sounds so one-dimensional, as if it's spelling out to kids what they're supposed to be feeling. I don't do music theory so I don't even know how to properly criticize it, something about it just doesn't sit right with me. Namely because I can't remember any of the tunes off the top of my head, besides the ones that play 100 times, because the melodies are generic and unmemorable. Also, I don't defend the Naruto anime for whatever it does, since it flat-out sucks compared to the manga with all its unnecessary censoring.

Faulconer's bigger problem rather than being bombastic is that it's constantly playing over everything, and it's usually way too far in the direction of either clownish comical music or grungy 90s butt rock.
Last edited by DefinitiveDubs on Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:10 am

DefinitiveDubs wrote:
Rukawa11 wrote:
DefinitiveDubs wrote:The biggest problem that Yamamoto and Sumitomo have is that they want to score Z like it's Power Rangers. They see Z as a juvenile show for children with bright colors, energy beams and silly puns. And while that's sort of true, they forget that Z also has a story with character development, and mostly takes itself seriously unlike OG and Super. So their music is always over-the-top and so loud that it overtakes the dialogue sometimes. Moments that are supposed to be powerful and emotionally charged come across as cartoony and one-dimensional.
Depending on how you look at it, DBZ can indeed be viewed as a profound storyline that could rival the likes of Evangelion and Ideon (I'm not being sarcastic at all here), but that's totally beside the point. So Yamamoto and Sumitomo's problem lies in creating colorful, energetic, cartoony music that override the dialogue, and that's not supposed to suit a Shonen Fighting Anime like DBZ? So are you saying Yuyu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, Flame of Recca and technically every other Shonen fighting Anime from 1995+ are cartoony for having such bgm? You've mentioned something about Bruce Faulconer's score not suiting DBZ for that same reason, but have you heard Toshio Masuda's score on Naruto Part I? The explosive guitars completely smoke Faulconer's work, and not only do they override the dialogue, there are times where you can't hear what the characters are saying from how upbeat and energetic the music is and there could be no better way to express the intensity of a Shonen fighting Anime.

Kikuchi's DBZ has been the only odd case among all Shonen fighting Anime. Even when considering its so-called Wuxia roots, it shouldn't be hard to realize that you simply cannot have a dull bgm without even a freakin drum beat playing at a scene where two characters are exchanging blows at an unprecedented speed. I still wouldn't want Faulconer's music at such scenes, though (many sounded like Linkin Park instrumentals that didn't make it to Hybrid Theory or Meteora).

Having ten or fifteen Solid State Scouter-esque bgm would've captured the intensity of the DBZ fights like no other.
Except the tracks for Naruto and Hakusho are comedic for the funny moments and badass for the badass moments. It never gives me the impression that it doesn't take itself seriously like Kai's music does. There's nuance and subtlety in other shonen tracks that I don't get from Yamamoto's work. It all sounds so one-dimensional, as if it's spelling out to kids what they're supposed to be feeling. I don't do music theory so I don't even know how to properly criticize it, something about it just doesn't sit right with me. Namely because I can't remember any of the tunes off the top of my head, besides the ones that play 100 times, because the melodies are generic and unmemorable. Also, I don't defend the Naruto anime for whatever it does, since it flat-out sucks compared to the manga with all its unnecessary censoring.

Faulconer's bigger problem rather than being bombastic is that it's constantly playing over everything, and it's usually way too far in the direction of either clownish comical music or grungy 90s butt rock.
What about Kikuchi's Soundtracks in Z?
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Rukawa11 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:16 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:What about Kikuchi's Soundtracks in Z?
One of my issues with Kikuchi's DBZ score which I may not have been able to get across properly is the drums.

But before I talk about them, I want you to understand that Kikuchi's work on DBZ belongs in a genre known as "classical music." The guy sticks firmly to violins, violas, oboes, saxophones, and a host of other instruments that all belong in an orchestra. Wuxia films aside, those instruments are not different than the ones used in 70's action films like Mad Max or James Bond. Being this deeply rooted in classical music, Kikuchi would naturally shy away from electric guitars, synthesizers, keyboards, and even pianos.

His biggest problem, however, is the drums. It may have been alright if he'd used all those classical music instruments if only he'd used normal/ consistent drum beats that are loud enough to be heard instead of orchestral percussion that tend to take a backseat or blend in with the other instruments

If you listen to this piece of music from 1988's Samurai Troopers/ Ronin Warriors, you'll notice that the lead saxophone solo sounds like many of Kikuchi's work in DBZ. In fact, Kikuchi's saxophone solo that played when Vegeta reflected on Goku's greatness against Kid Boo and when Goku stood up to Broly in Movie 8 asking everyone to lend him their strength completely smokes the Ronin Warriors soundtrack in terms of catchiness. The only thing that completely gives the Ronin Warriors piece an edge is that the classical sax solo is accompanied by modern keyboards, synths, and most importantly, a drum beat.
If you listen closely to the drums, you'll realize there isn't a single instant in all of DBZ where we heard the drums that clearly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeTsXtsxW4

It's really insane when you realize that 90% of the hard-hitting and flashy DBZ fights were accompanied by music without a prominent drum beat like the one in this energetic fight song from Patlabor (1989):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppx5VEej7BU

With regards to Kikuchi hardly using synthesizers and keyboards, check out this track from Street Fighter II: the Movie. It's astonishing how this piece was played in a 1994 film where DBZ was still running and still playing bgm with 70's instruments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pcx4fV ... UvKe16MwRn

This piece was played when Ryu was trying to make Ken snap out of the hypnotism he was under. Imagine if this were played when Goku was convincing Majin Vegeta to stop fighting? The result would've been amazing.

Finally, as testimony to Kikuchi never evolving or keeping up with the times, this piece from his work on Grendizer (1974) hardly sounds older than his work on DBZ nearly 15-20 years later. I'd believe this piece was played during the Saiyan or Freeza arcs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YshmaY-KD4I

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Captain-Sora » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:16 am

Rukawa11 wrote:Being this deeply rooted in classical music, Kikuchi would naturally shy away from electric guitars, synthesizers, keyboards, and even pianos.
There are some instances where he dabbles into contemporary instrumentation. He wouldn't exactly compose an entire score around a particular modern style, but stuff like electric guitars have seen some use. Some renditions of Broly's leitmotif utilizing one are notable examples.

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:31 pm

I like Dragon Ball original Japanese score.. DBZ OST could have been better IMO. And I love Super's OST. I have a bit of a mixed opinion on it. Overall I like the music but I found DBZ's to be a bit less intense/emotional at times when such tracks were needed.

I also do like Funimation but as you can see I'm very open minded on the soundtracks and I do respect the other OST's. I'll watch the series in any way it's been released. Honestly I'm actually quite glad they didn't change Super's OST for the new dub.

This may vary from other fans views, but I really thought the original Dragon Ball had a more fitting soundtrack with it's backgrounds and particular scenes in comparison to DBZ.
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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:37 am

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:I like Dragon Ball original Japanese score.. DBZ OST could have been better IMO. And I love Super's OST. I have a bit of a mixed opinion on it. Overall I like the music but I found DBZ's to be a bit less intense/emotional at times when such tracks were needed.

I also do like Funimation but as you can see I'm very open minded on the soundtracks and I do respect the other OST's. I'll watch the series in any way it's been released. Honestly I'm actually quite glad they didn't change Super's OST for the new dub.

This may vary from other fans views, but I really thought the original Dragon Ball had a more fitting soundtrack with it's backgrounds and particular scenes in comparison to DBZ.
Still the Kikuchi's Z Music is far superior to Super's or Kai music and specially Faulconer's music which many people who only watched the dub think is the best but in my opinion its worse along with that repetitive GT dub score
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Rukawa11 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:29 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:Still the Kikuchi's Z Music is far superior to Super's or Kai music and specially Faulconer's music which many people who only watched the dub think is the best but in my opinion its worse along with that repetitive GT dub score
Super's ost is basically following what's in these last couple of years. Which is to say, epic music (or orchestral). I dunno about everyone else, but I really hate how epic music is now appearing everywhere. In the past, this type of music was used strictly (or at least, 90% of the time) in Hollywood/ blockbuster films and Anime movies/ ovas with high production values (Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal, for instance). You could never, for instance, hear a similar piece in The Last Samurai or The Matrix as you would in Inuyasha or Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters. But now, music from DB Super or Naruto Shippuden sound exactly the same as the kind of stuff you hear in cinema, despite the fact that Shonen fighting animes rarely if ever warrant such epic music.

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:14 pm

Rukawa11 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:Still the Kikuchi's Z Music is far superior to Super's or Kai music and specially Faulconer's music which many people who only watched the dub think is the best but in my opinion its worse along with that repetitive GT dub score
Super's ost is basically following what's in these last couple of years. Which is to say, epic music (or orchestral). I dunno about everyone else, but I really hate how epic music is now appearing everywhere. In the past, this type of music was used strictly (or at least, 90% of the time) in Hollywood/ blockbuster films and Anime movies/ ovas with high production values (Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal, for instance). You could never, for instance, hear a similar piece in The Last Samurai or The Matrix as you would in Inuyasha or Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters. But now, music from DB Super or Naruto Shippuden sound exactly the same as the kind of stuff you hear in cinema, despite the fact that Shonen fighting animes rarely if ever warrant such epic music.
Times change maybe it's an effect of modernization or bucking the trends.

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Re: Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:23 pm

Rukawa11 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:Still the Kikuchi's Z Music is far superior to Super's or Kai music and specially Faulconer's music which many people who only watched the dub think is the best but in my opinion its worse along with that repetitive GT dub score
Super's ost is basically following what's in these last couple of years. Which is to say, epic music (or orchestral). I dunno about everyone else, but I really hate how epic music is now appearing everywhere. In the past, this type of music was used strictly (or at least, 90% of the time) in Hollywood/ blockbuster films and Anime movies/ ovas with high production values (Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal, for instance). You could never, for instance, hear a similar piece in The Last Samurai or The Matrix as you would in Inuyasha or Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters. But now, music from DB Super or Naruto Shippuden sound exactly the same as the kind of stuff you hear in cinema, despite the fact that Shonen fighting animes rarely if ever warrant such epic music.
Sure, some tracks in Super have a rather cinematic feeling but about half of the other tracks do not. It's a mixture of both. It's also doing kind of it's own thing in a unique way. I can point to some tracks in Super that are not the kind of music you'd hear in a movie. And I do watch many films.

You say anime very rarely warrants the music that Super uses, but honestly I felt that in many spots of the series it did blend together rather well.
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