Does DBZ's OST Feel Lackluster at Times?

[Kunzait_83]

Calm. The. Motherfucking. Hell. Down.

You're the one who started drama. Not me.

I... what? How? What?

Oh, I'm sorry. I can't believe I would've ever thought that said that you thought yourself better than other people in this thread. Except oh wait, you did:

There's a metric FUCKTON of blatant misconceptions and incorrect assertions, such as the main topic of this thread, that all stem primarily from not only general ignorance/inexperience with Wuxia

You literally called people ignorant for not having the "expertise" that you do. Don't even try to dance around like you didn't.

I don't have "expertise" in jack shit, nor did I ever once claim to. Certainly not in Wuxia. I'm as painfully generic a fan of the stuff as it gets: there are actual academics who study this stuff in MUCH greater detail for a living who make me look like the dunce-boy that I am.

I said that there is a general ignorance of Wuxia in modern day DB fandom, because there CLEARLY IS. Being unaware of (i.e. ignorant) of a given topic DOES NOT therefore make someone "ignorant" in the "you are unintelligent" definition of the word. It means that this is a (albeit crucial) blind spot in today's fandom. The fact that I, again a patently unremarkable fanboy, am one of the only people here raising any noise about this is out and out MYSTIFYING to me: hence where some of the frustration on my end comes from. My attitude this whole way has been "Why does it gotta be ME who has to be the one to talk about this stuff? I'm an idiot." Its literally the EXACT opposite of what you're accusing me of. I don't think myself "special" for it, and once again, you're very obviously just stuffing words into my mouth.

"People have a whole helluva lot of mistaken impressions about DB because they don't know about this thing here" does NOT translate to "Everyone here is stupider than me and I'm superior." YOU'RE the one who's going well out of your way to read that into this because you clearly WANT to have a reason/excuse to get into a fight here. Its dripping from every word out of you.

And yet, I'M the one who "started the drama". Right.

Its JUST a fucking anime/manga. Take a Xanax and lie down or something.

Then why are you calling OP ignorant for thinking Kikuchi didn't fit with the sci-fi elements of Z, enough to write two thesis-long posts about it? If it's just an anime, why are you getting so frustrated over simple opinions?

1) I didn't call the OP ignorant. I said that there's an ignorance in fandom as a whole about this topic. BECAUSE THERE CLEARLY FUCKING IS, or else I wouldn't have to bring it up and write "thesis-long" posts on the matter.

Secondly, I find DB fandom as a whole frustrating, but its as FAR down at the bottom of the laundry list of items in my life as it gets. I post about Wuxia here while I have some time aside here or there in between MUCH more infinitely pressing matters. I also DON'T find it so frustrating that I go out of my way to insult people (even though you're claiming that that's what I've done here).

That is not anywhere even remotely close to what I was saying, you assclown.

Case in point.

Note that you're the only one here calling anyone names and resorting to personal insults. Hence I'll say it again: calm the fuck down. If you're not some 13 year old (and you very well might be, given the evidence on display here) show a little fucking class, even if you think that I'm not.

Because I mean Kanz isn't just any random DB forum. This is where the truly dedicated die hards generally come to. The kinds of people who really DO care about DB's cultural roots and creative influences. I thought that if you were here, odds were that you were a LOT more interested in DB than just a normal, casual degree.

Oh wow. Now you're saying that being a casual fan is unwelcome here.

Just because this is where the hardcore manga-only fuck-the-dub fans go, doesn't mean it's a safe space from the casuals. I would think the biggest English Dragon Ball fansite on the web would welcome all fans, casual or not. That's why this thread exists in the first place.

Jesus. Proof positive, you're just trying to pick a fight here.

I was illustrating the fact that BECAUSE this is first and foremost a place for die hard/hardcore fans, then this is all the more THE place for in-depth analysis. THAT DOESN'T EXCLUDE CASUALS from being welcome, nor does it constitute my "shitting on them".

You're exhausting, and I can't tell honestly if you're legitimately dense or if you're just trolling (could easily go either way). Either way I'm officially done.

[Kaboom]

I hope that little exchange is truly done now, but even if it is, both of you please try to be a little less touchy and a little more courteous in the future.

[Daimo-Rukiri]

The OST is fantastic it has it's moments and some of the better stuff did come from Z so I don't see why people are complaining, yes it's my own opinion and I'm sticking to it. I personally felt the faulconer tracks were seriously misplaced and just "didn't fit" the series like... at all! the only few tracks I did like were obviously the SSJ3 theme, and the room of spirit and time (or hyperbolic time chamber for dub fans) but not really anything else.

[Ripper 30]

As someone going into sound directing and editing, I'll throw in my two cents.

The biggest problem that Yamamoto and Sumitomo have is that they want to score Z like it's Power Rangers. They see Z as a juvenile show for children with bright colors, energy beams and silly puns. And while that's sort of true, they forget that Z also has a story with character development, and mostly takes itself seriously unlike OG and Super. So their music is always over-the-top and so loud that it overtakes the dialogue sometimes. Moments that are supposed to be powerful and emotionally charged come across as cartoony and one-dimensional.

I know all the elitists on this forum disagree, but I have always loved Faulconer's music. Super Buu's theme, Vegeta SSJ, Cell's theme, Ginyu Transformation and the SSJ3 theme are all wonderfully catchy and Faulconer's team understands the emotion behind the scenes they play in far better than the Kai composers ever did. BUT, it had a similar problem to Kai in that it was still scored like a cartoon. There's no silence, no subtlety. Every single scene has music playing over it, and like someone else said, when it's lighthearted, it sounds embarrassingly juvenile, and other times it's overly grungey, dripping with cringeworthy 90s edge. Basically, while I love the individual music itself, the scoring ends up being even worse than Kai.

I kind of agree with the OP in that Kikuchi's music sounds a bit dated today. It's great for OG and all the way through Frieza's death, but for the Android saga and later, it starts to lose steam. It's very old-fashioned and Fist Of The North Star-ish for a series that's suddenly filled with sci-fi, and there's an odd juxtaposition that bothers me. But oh man, Kikuchi understands subtlety and silence, and that's a lost art. And the insert songs are just awesome. They add so much color to the soundtrack that the other scores just don't have.

If I could have it my way, I'd have Faulconer's score combined with Kikuchi's music placement, silent moments, and insert songs. I'd also only have it for the Android saga and later, for where they really fit. I'd keep Kikuchi for everything else, maybe even Yamamoto for a few things. But that's just me.

I agree with you for the most part but I think Kikuchi had really Good Music after Freeza Arc too which Suited the Situation and the Cell Arc kind of had a Suspenseful Music like that of Horror Movie well who can forget this memorable SSJ transformation of Trunks https://youtu.be/G6FboEQRRsI or scenes like this when goku is ascending past Super Saiyan Form https://youtu.be/tbpEUaVPArg the music is awesome here and of course the SSJ2 Transformation is legendary and even in Boo arc it had some awesome Themes too like this one https://youtu.be/5yfyNbi6M34 which had suspense, this One ( at 2:51) hypes up the audience https://youtu.be/p_MhOIItYYM so I think the music didn't really felt dated as its an old series too and Music fitted Perfectly as DBZ too looks dated animation wise compared to nowdays so it kinda fits best and Yammamoto music is my Second Favourite but it sounds like typical Shonen Anime at times same with Sumitomo music so Kikuchi's Music is very unique in its own way and easily best among all others

[GTx10]

I think the Japanese score lost its "flavor" within the Majin Buu arc. I must admit the Buu arc music is just there, I think the only track I can recall that is exclusive to the Buu arc is Ultimate Gohan's ready for battle music. That's just the second opening song with a higher pitch. The Buu era movies also lack a good soundtrack aside from Tapion's ocarina melody.
The Japanese soundtrack was at its best during the Dragon Ball era. King Piccolo's theme is just yummy.

[coola]

Problem with Kai music, is placement, i like Formidable Opponent, Saiyan, but after i heard it for 100th time through series, i got tired of it, same thing happened with Kkuchi replacement score, almost all music was misplaced, and it didn't help they were allowed to use only post Freeza soundtrack and from later movies.

[Ripper 30]

I think the Japanese score lost its "flavor" within the Majin Buu arc. I must admit the Buu arc music is just there, I think the only track I can recall that is exclusive to the Buu arc is Ultimate Gohan's ready for battle music. That's just the second opening song with a higher pitch. The Buu era movies also lack a good soundtrack aside from Tapion's ocarina melody.
The Japanese soundtrack was at its best during the Dragon Ball era. King Piccolo's theme is just yummy.

I actually Loved the Boo arc music infact it is the Saga where new theme songs and Soundtracks came that are opening and endings and I found the Boo Arc music really good and way better than Faulconer's Music and also Sumitomo's Music which was often misplaced at times and also the Music Director of DBZ knew how to appropriately use Silence better than The Music Director of Kai and FUNi Dub of Z (that is the Main Reason the Music never Felt that much annoying compared to Kai where that one track called "The Formidable Warrior, The Saiyan" played like 2 or 3 times an episode and that's why it felt more repetitive than Kikuchi's Music in Z)

[Ripper 30]

Problem with Kai music, is placement, i like Formidable Opponent, Saiyan, but after i heard it for 100th time through series, i got tired of it, same thing happened with Kkuchi replacement score, almost all music was misplaced, and it didn't help they were allowed to use only post Freeza soundtrack and from later movies.

Agreed, I am a Fan of Kikuchi's Music but I didn't like how random and rushed the placement of Kikuchi's Music was in Kai and only a small percentage was utilised and sadly, the ones who grew up with Faulconer's Music in Z had a very Bad Image of Kikuchi's Music and they think that only the tracks used in Kai are the only ones that Kikuchi had but they should see DB and DBZ which has way better placement of Kikuchi's Music

[GTx10]

Its different for everyone. Like I really Enjoy GT's Japanese soundtrack and I can hum those tunes all day. Yet the Japanese Z Buu era music is just a blank for me. Outside of We Gotta Power and We were Angels I can't remember too much.
I think some of the Bruce F themes during the Buu arc were great however. Super Buu's US theme is just sex to my ears.

[ssj5]

Kikuchi got you on every scene you needed. Fight, sad, epic, mysterious etc. I wish we could use those musics on your dragon ball tribute projects without copyright strike danger... I think it's not really risky. For example this guy uses it on a lot of his videos and he monetizes them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4inGw7MvhA

His videos are huge so someone would already noticed and claimed copyright, so maybe they are cool with the old original OST but probably wouldn't risk it with the modern USA/Super stuff. But the original Kikuchi stuff is not even listed in Youtube for Content ID detection so it would literally take Toei or whoever has the rights, to look into your video and claim copyright, and again the MAstar media guy has a huge channel and he keeps using those songs so I guess it's ok to use. It's like the sound effects. Everyone and their mother samples the sound effects from the series and nobody bothers to claim copyright which is cool because how are you supposed to do dragon ball related stuff without those.

[Nejishiki]

More often than not, Toei Animation claims "YouTube money" from Dragon Ball videos, even if they're not removed. I doubt those channels are financially benefiting from Kikuchi's works.

[ssj5]

More often than not, Toei Animation claims "YouTube money" from Dragon Ball videos, even if they're not removed. I doubt those channels are financially benefiting from Kikuchi's works.

What I doubt is MAstar Media spends months of hard work into an animation to not make any money out of it.

[Nejishiki]

"MaSTAR Media" receives donations from fans (I'd recommend against contributing towards that). I think my original statement stands.

[Weejus]

In fairness, I'm not that into any of the Dragon Ball TV soundtracks, aside from a couple pieces here and there. I think Kikuchi's work does its job as a perfectly serviceable, if rarely amazing, aural accompaniment to the onscreen action.

[Rukawa11]

The biggest problem that Yamamoto and Sumitomo have is that they want to score Z like it's Power Rangers. They see Z as a juvenile show for children with bright colors, energy beams and silly puns. And while that's sort of true, they forget that Z also has a story with character development, and mostly takes itself seriously unlike OG and Super. So their music is always over-the-top and so loud that it overtakes the dialogue sometimes. Moments that are supposed to be powerful and emotionally charged come across as cartoony and one-dimensional.

Depending on how you look at it, DBZ can indeed be viewed as a profound storyline that could rival the likes of Evangelion and Ideon (I'm not being sarcastic at all here), but that's totally beside the point. So Yamamoto and Sumitomo's problem lies in creating colorful, energetic, cartoony music that override the dialogue, and that's not supposed to suit a Shonen Fighting Anime like DBZ? So are you saying Yuyu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, Flame of Recca and technically every other Shonen fighting Anime from 1995+ are cartoony for having such bgm? You've mentioned something about Bruce Faulconer's score not suiting DBZ for that same reason, but have you heard Toshio Masuda's score on Naruto Part I? The explosive guitars completely smoke Faulconer's work, and not only do they override the dialogue, there are times where you can't hear what the characters are saying from how upbeat and energetic the music is and there could be no better way to express the intensity of a Shonen fighting Anime.

Kikuchi's DBZ has been the only odd case among all Shonen fighting Anime. Even when considering its so-called Wuxia roots, it shouldn't be hard to realize that you simply cannot have a dull bgm without even a freakin drum beat playing at a scene where two characters are exchanging blows at an unprecedented speed. I still wouldn't want Faulconer's music at such scenes, though (many sounded like Linkin Park instrumentals that didn't make it to Hybrid Theory or Meteora).

Having ten or fifteen Solid State Scouter-esque bgm would've captured the intensity of the DBZ fights like no other.

[Ripper 30]

The biggest problem that Yamamoto and Sumitomo have is that they want to score Z like it's Power Rangers. They see Z as a juvenile show for children with bright colors, energy beams and silly puns. And while that's sort of true, they forget that Z also has a story with character development, and mostly takes itself seriously unlike OG and Super. So their music is always over-the-top and so loud that it overtakes the dialogue sometimes. Moments that are supposed to be powerful and emotionally charged come across as cartoony and one-dimensional.

Depending on how you look at it, DBZ can indeed be viewed as a profound storyline that could rival the likes of Evangelion and Ideon (I'm not being sarcastic at all here), but that's totally beside the point. So Yamamoto and Sumitomo's problem lies in creating colorful, energetic, cartoony music that override the dialogue, and that's not supposed to suit a Shonen Fighting Anime like DBZ? So are you saying Yuyu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, Flame of Recca and technically every other Shonen fighting Anime from 1995+ are cartoony for having such bgm? You've mentioned something about Bruce Faulconer's score not suiting DBZ for that same reason, but have you heard Toshio Masuda's score on Naruto Part I? The explosive guitars completely smoke Faulconer's work, and not only do they override the dialogue, there are times where you can't hear what the characters are saying from how upbeat and energetic the music is and there could be no better way to express the intensity of a Shonen fighting Anime.

Kikuchi's DBZ has been the only odd case among all Shonen fighting Anime. Even when considering its so-called Wuxia roots, it shouldn't be hard to realize that you simply cannot have a dull bgm without even a freakin drum beat playing at a scene where two characters are exchanging blows at an unprecedented speed. I still wouldn't want Faulconer's music at such scenes, though (many sounded like Linkin Park instrumentals that didn't make it to Hybrid Theory or Meteora).

Having ten or fifteen Solid State Scouter-esque bgm would've captured the intensity of the DBZ fights like no other.

i Disagree, the music neccessarily don't need to be like Naruto or Yu Yu Hakusho soundtracks, orchestra Can be powerful as well, the mixing of instruments is a thing too and Kikuchi too had some kickass Music as well like,
For Intense Fights music like :
https://youtu.be/cG8YdwCVZSc
https://youtu.be/4BDKeuhDyIA
https://youtu.be/DFgo2moznQw
https://youtu.be/LUUWwgswbvk
https://youtu.be/It-daXUtVkE
https://youtu.be/CI8SzHziPWg
https://youtu.be/w14FuFPoB2o
https://youtu.be/Lukg7tQgaqA
https://youtu.be/zd4ylDJBLWM

I personally don't think one has to compose music like yyh or Naruto neccessarily when in their own Way the soundtracks fit perfectly, even Japanese Fans prefer Kikuchi over Yamamoto and Sumitomo

[Rukawa11]

i Disagree, the music neccessarily don't need to be like Naruto or Yu Yu Hakusho soundtracks, orchestra Can be powerful as well, the mixing of instruments is a thing too and Kikuchi too had some kickass Music as well like,
For Intense Fights music like :
https://youtu.be/cG8YdwCVZSc
https://youtu.be/4BDKeuhDyIA
https://youtu.be/DFgo2moznQw
https://youtu.be/LUUWwgswbvk
https://youtu.be/It-daXUtVkE
https://youtu.be/CI8SzHziPWg
https://youtu.be/w14FuFPoB2o
https://youtu.be/Lukg7tQgaqA
https://youtu.be/zd4ylDJBLWM

I personally don't think one has to compose music like yyh or Naruto neccessarily when in their own Way the soundtracks fit perfectly, even Japanese Fans prefer Kikuchi over Yamamoto and Sumitomo

Most of the tracks you've listed suited DBZ up until the Ginyu Force battle and the first four or five movies, but after introducing something as flashy as Super Saiyan and having Future Trunks and Vegeta achieve that form after Goku, it just didn't feel that Kikuchi's score could carry such overwhelming, catchy, and (at the time) unprecedented visuals. I'm not saying the ost should necessarily be like YYH or Naruto. But something that was more up-to-date with the times like Kawai Kenji's Patlabor score (1990) or Tanaka Kouhei's work on G Gundam (1994) would've been a welcome change. We might've even had a few Piano-driven tracks (which, together with electric guitars, has to be one of Kikuchi's least favorite instruments).

I also agree with what many members have said about the placement of Kikuchi's music in DBZ being wrong in many occasions (I remember waiting anxiously for that piece of music in Movie 5 where Cooler's three henchmen attack Goku and he fires this triple ki blast to appear in the series), but that doesn't solve the main problem.

DB is still so often treated as an optional backstory prequel for DBZ rather than the first consecutive half of one whole series.

That's something that annoys me to this day. Unfortunately, I can't blame fans for passing up DB (but I'll call them insane for doing so nevertheless). Unlike other Anime sequels like Patlabor the New Files, Naruto Shippuden, Gundam Seed Destiny, and Code Geass R, DragonballZ doesn't contain much events that provide closure to former DB storylines (You get a detailed flashback about Piccolo Daimao before Piccolo merges with Kami-sama in Cell Saga so even that wouldn't count). Dragonball ended with everything being resolved and DBZ was a whole new beginning rather than a continuation of unresolved stories from DB.

[Ripper 30]

i Disagree, the music neccessarily don't need to be like Naruto or Yu Yu Hakusho soundtracks, orchestra Can be powerful as well, the mixing of instruments is a thing too and Kikuchi too had some kickass Music as well like,
For Intense Fights music like :
https://youtu.be/cG8YdwCVZSc
https://youtu.be/4BDKeuhDyIA
https://youtu.be/DFgo2moznQw
https://youtu.be/LUUWwgswbvk
https://youtu.be/It-daXUtVkE
https://youtu.be/CI8SzHziPWg
https://youtu.be/w14FuFPoB2o
https://youtu.be/Lukg7tQgaqA
https://youtu.be/zd4ylDJBLWM

I personally don't think one has to compose music like yyh or Naruto neccessarily when in their own Way the soundtracks fit perfectly, even Japanese Fans prefer Kikuchi over Yamamoto and Sumitomo

Most of the tracks you've listed suited DBZ up until the Ginyu Force battle and the first four or five movies, but after introducing something as flashy as Super Saiyan and having Future Trunks and Vegeta achieve that form after Goku, it just didn't feel that Kikuchi's score could carry such overwhelming, catchy, and (at the time) unprecedented visuals. I'm not saying the ost should necessarily be like YYH or Naruto. But something that was more up-to-date with the times like Kawai Kenji's Patlabor score (1990) or Tanaka Kouhei's work on G Gundam (1994) would've been a welcome change. We might've even had a few Piano-driven tracks (which, together with electric guitars, has to be one of Kikuchi's least favorite instruments).

I also agree with what many members have said about the placement of Kikuchi's music in DBZ being wrong in many occasions (I remember waiting anxiously for that piece of music in Movie 5 where Cooler's three henchmen attack Goku and he fires this triple ki blast to appear in the series), but that doesn't solve the main problem.

DB is still so often treated as an optional backstory prequel for DBZ rather than the first consecutive half of one whole series.

That's something that annoys me to this day. Unfortunately, I can't blame fans for passing up DB (but I'll call them insane for doing so nevertheless). Unlike other Anime sequels like Patlabor the New Files, Naruto Shippuden, Gundam Seed Destiny, and Code Geass R, DragonballZ doesn't contain much events that provide closure to former DB storylines (You get a detailed flashback about Piccolo Daimao before Piccolo merges with Kami-sama in Cell Saga so even that wouldn't count). Dragonball ended with everything being resolved and DBZ was a whole new beginning rather than a continuation of unresolved stories from DB.

I Think Kikuchi Did a Great job on The series because his scores just feel perfect for the world of Dragon Ball and the Kai Music was too much like Faulconer and kind of like generic Anime Music of these days and it just didn't felt as distinctive as Kikuchi's Music which in my opinion is in leagues of his own and that's why I didn't liked Yamamoto that much because his Music was good but too much like Budokai Video games and sometimes loud and the same theme is overused to much too the point it sounded so generic I mean compare Gohan Killing Cell In Both Kai and Z or Trunks Transformation in ssj or ssj2 or goku Ascending ssj form in Room of Spirit and Time or vegeta Ascending or even Goku killing Boo, all were way more Epic in Z and that's due to Music and I never really got "dated" feeling from them as it fitted perfectly most of the time and it's the Kai Music which felt lackluster at times

[Rukawa11]

it just didn't felt as distinctive as Kikuchi's Music which in my opinion is in leagues of his own

90% of Anime series in the 70's and early 80's sounded exactly like Kikuchi's score on DBZ. He himself was a prominent figure in that period with Super Robot/ Sentai shows.

[MarcBigleague]

During the Cell arc I hear a lot of these two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dFJz7kmNK8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXrLhDF8xE0

I personally feel they give off a different level of intensity than previous "action" pieces like M814 B which was mostly played during Saiyan and Freeza Arc. I know the two I linked above were made for Movie 7 and not the show, but their use in later parts of the show and not in Saiyan/Freeza arc did make the show feel evolving to me.

Also, btw, I believe M814 B does use snare drums and I'm sure many others do too lol.