Why is Rock music in DB so frowned upon here?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Over my four years here (Jeez time flies eh remember the pre BoG hype so much! ) I have noticed a lot of folks seem to rebuff rock music when it comes to DB, my question is why? Folks frown at Linkin Park AMV's but I mean they work, DB is is a hard hitting show I think it lends itself to rock music quite well and why I actually like the FUNi dub of the old movies. Seems this new modern DB era is quite rock inspired, Hero in BoG was a lil rocky then "F" came along that gave us the obvious "F" song and even the Vow of Z closer song was a lot heavy then one would think! And then there is the new Super OP, which is heavily rock inspired. It just works with DB or rather the latter half of DB (aka Z onward).

[Bajosexto]

Maybe it's because most people here grew up with/prefer the Kikuchi score, which was an orchestral one. I do like the FUNi replacement score for movie 4(that's the only movie I've seen in English). I'll admit that I don't like it as much as the Kikuchi score for lord Slug but I do think it's good. I've heard that some of the movies(FUNi dub) had replacement scores similar to the one in movie 4. I wish FUNi had an option(in the movies) to watch it in Japanese with the US music.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

I absolutely love rock/metal music. These are ones of my favourite genres. But I can't stand them in Dragon Ball. They are something totally different. They do not represent characteristic Dragon Ball atmosphere at all.
I would say that for some people, Kikuchi is not much less important Dragon Ball character than Goku himself - that's the second argument.

There are tons of stuff we like, which we don't want to mix together, because we don't see any connection between them.
...and, of course, nostalgia factor is very strong here.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Faulconer's 3rd Law of Instrumentations.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

VegettoEX said it best in podcast episode #392. It is about what defines DB music and understands the world and the tone it is set in and for me as well as a lot of people it is the Kikuchi Shunsuke score.

Now, it doesn't mean only Kikuchi can do it. There are other composers who can do it just fine. Takaki Hiroshi, for example can do it and has done before. But, the producers have dropped this idea for some reason and are going with a whatever style.

It is hard for me to explain, but when I watched Kai, the latest movies and now as I'm watching Super my feelings towards the music is that "It doesn't feel like the Dragon World to me."

[SaiyanGod117]

Nostalgia, there's some musical pieces that can truly be timeless; however Kikuchi's isn't one of them.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

As others have said the music is fine, its all about how it fits Dragon Ball and we've seen varying levels of success in this regard over the years. Dragon Ball is one of those series where you need to dig deeper to understand the world and the characters Toriyama created, and this should be reflected to some extent in the music. Edgy tunes may work for certain fight sequences, but in the time in between the big fights they need time to breath because Dragon Ball, while certainly about action is not all about action. It is a fantasy series based on a Chinese legend, and because rock is relatively a more recent music genre within this context you can't get that atmosphere when the music is always blaring in the background, there has to be more there to address every other aspect of the series.

Take the Faulconer soundtrack for example, while there was a certain charm to it that fit at times (the Super Saiyan 3 Goku theme was very good) certain themes that are critical to the story were missed in the process, themes such as drama and suspense are better captured by silence, which the score lacked and as a result it fell short of feeling like a "Dragon Ball score".

Another aspect of the story Faulconer and other replacement composers missed was the whimsical and comedic feel of Dragon Ball's roots. Tom Keenlyside and John Mitchell did a decent job of this with the Westwood dub (another reason I'm beyond curious at this point to see the Ocean Kai dub as they are allegedly behind its replacement score) but overall, like Faulconer more silence would have been a plus.

Composers like Kikuchi fit like a glove because the intense themes are there, but because the score is better paced and takes its time to deliver its all the more satisfying when those moments of tension hit.

It's all about getting the right balance of everything that makes Dragon Ball what it is, I definitely think rock music in Dragon Ball can benefit the story when used right, but as with comedy in Star Wars too much can be a detriment (I'm looking at you Jar Jar Binks).

[floofychan333]

I absolutely love rock/metal music. These are ones of my favourite genres. But I can't stand them in Dragon Ball. They are something totally different. They do not represent characteristic Dragon Ball atmosphere at all.
I would say that for some people, Kikuchi is not much less important Dragon Ball character than Goku himself - that's the second argument.

There are tons of stuff we like, which we don't want to mix together, because we don't see any connection between them.
...and, of course, nostalgia factor is very strong here.

Me too, I'm a System of a Down fanatic but I'd hate to see System music play in the background of a DB show or movie. Also, Kikuchi is as important to the series as Toriyama; that's one reason why Super can never be the best DB series IMO.

[MasenkoHA]

Most here prefer/ have a bias toward the Japanese version and the rock heavy music is just another one of the changes American Dragon Ball Z to alter the show like Goku being turned into Superman.

On the other side the preference for the Kikuchi score is only a majority opinion here. Outside here the vast majority prefer Faulconer's score over anything. But that's a heavy combination of nostalgia and the only experience they have with Kikuchi's music is its badly placed use in Kai. I honestly despised the Kikuchi score when I first heard it in Kai around the Android saga on Nicktoons because the placement was horrid and I was used to the Yamamoto score by that point (though most American Z toonami era fans hated that score too) and didn't really appreciate the Kikuchi score until I started watching Z episodes on FunimationNow.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

VegettoEX said it best in podcast episode #392. It is about what defines DB music and understands the world and the tone it is set in and for me as well as a lot of people it is the Kikuchi Shunsuke score.

Now, it doesn't mean only Kikuchi can do it. There are other composers who can do it just fine. Takaki Hiroshi, for example can do it and has done before. But, the producers have dropped this idea for some reason and are going with a whatever style.

It is hard for me to explain, but when I watched Kai, the latest movies and now as I'm watching Super my feelings towards the music is that "It doesn't feel like the Dragon World to me."

I just think that people prefer the Kikuchi score because its apart of the Japanese package, and people who have the background knowledge of what the series was conceptually see that the score was done purposely for the tone in relation to the concept. People who prefer the hard rock songs do so because they only see the series anticipating how it was marketed on Toonami. Like you said, the division people have about the series as I notice is generally seen in music preference. Though I did like the hard rock used in the later movies because they generally are just action-centered generic battles anyway and not story related at all.

Though I don't accept the bias some elitist fans have where they think the music is only inherently better just because they assume that Toei understands the vision of the series due to it just being Japanese, where as in modern production of the series I don't think they do or care that much anymore. Seeing as how bad music was handled in Kai and the clear generic treatment we have with the overly synthesized J-Pop Tunes Sumitomo had, and the extremely repetitive Yamamoto scores which people here at least acknowledge being a flaw. I can accept Japanese scores fitting dragonball's overall atmosphere when done well, like it was in the original series, the specials and GT.

Most of the modern incarnations of the series don't have very interesting music in it anymore, and Super' former over synthesized, random J-Pop tones didn't fit at all for me, and it made it more noticeable that the series was bring treated as just another kid's shounen show, rather than a period piece. Most of the songs now don't even sound like they were made for the series, like the infamous early Goku theme, and title-card themes in Super. Come on. If I wanted an update on the original tones of the series, I'd personally want something more like what they give Naruto part 1's score where it was more of a mixture of the Rock & Eastern instrumentals for that martial arts feel.

[Rukawa11]

So I've read

Dragon Ball is one of those series where you need to dig deeper to understand the world and the characters Toriyama created, and this should be reflected to some extent in the music.

And

VegettoEX said it best in podcast episode #392. It is about what defines DB music and understands the world and the tone it is set in and for me as well as a lot of people it is the Kikuchi Shunsuke score.

And it definitely won't be the last time someone would say something along the lines of DB/Z bearing a profound meaning that goes beyond its Shonen/ Super Powers themes, and that only upon understanding this will we come to appreciate Kikuchi's soundtrack.

Fellas,
Shunsuke Kikuchi was selected to score DB's music in early 1986 (possibly late 1985). During that time, only a handful of Anime composers (like Shiro Sagisu's brilliant work on Kimagure Orange Road) would write music other than classical. Composers of Saint Seiya, Hokuto no Ken, Mobile Suit Zetta Gundam, and many other Dragonball contemporary Animes used the same instruments Kikuchi was using, and none of those Animes had Wuxia roots. DB's ost is called "classical music" and it's not a genre pertaining to Wuxia films alone.

Classical music in Anime (and to a lesser degree, in film) endured until the late 80's but was definitely a dead art by the early 90's. The thing with DBZ is that it continued into the 90's, and it probably would've sounded strange to many if Episode 1 of DBZ (which aired a week or two after DB ep. 153) would suddenly contain a totally different style of music. So Kikuchi was that rare case who scored an Anime from the mid 80's using music that was in at the time, and was asked to carry on when the Anime entered into the 90's using the same style. The result was dreadful for the most part. Movie 10, for example, which was produced in 1994, had a soundtrack that made it look like a 1984 film.

If Dragonball had aired in 1990 instead of 1986, where no Anime had classical music for a soundtrack, then the producers may not have hired Kikuchi at all. It's time we take a different look at things and realize that the theory about Kikuchi being hired for the purpose of evoking the vibe of old Wuxia music is absurd, because this so-called Wuxia music was prevalent in most 70's and 80's Anime.

With regards to the main topic, I'm as disdainful as others about rock/ metal music in DBZ.. Can't stand it. But Kikuchi's score isn't the way to go either. Have you listened to DBZ Ultimate Battle 22's soundtrack for PS1? To me, that was DBZ spirit at its finest.

[Kunzait_83]

Composers of Saint Seiya, Hokuto no Ken, Mobile Suit Zetta Gundam, and many other Dragonball contemporary Animes used the same instruments Kikuchi was using, and none of those Animes had Wuxia roots.

Hokuto no Ken most certainly has exceedingly obvious and blatant Wuxia roots. Saint Seiya and Zetta Gundam on the other hand don't of course.

Hell, Hokuto no Ken is in many ways a more classically straight forward & traditional Wuxia series than DB is, with the Mad Max post-nuclear war setting being the only real wrinkle that it throws into the mix (as opposed to DB's space aliens, weird sci fi tech, cyborgs, bio mutants, dinosaurs, shape changing Dr. Slumpian animal people, etc).

[90sDBZ]

I've always wondered this myself. Especially considering a lot of the music from the Budokai game series is essentially plagiarised rock music, yet still seems to be very praised around here. I think it's a case of people just disliking replacement scores in general, with the Budokai series music getting a free pass because the rock music was there to begin with.

I'd even argue there's a possibility that the Budokai music was made to appeal to both the Japanese and Western fanbases. It makes perfect sense considering the Budokai series was made as a response to the massive success of Z in the US. And both dub and sub fans alike seem to love it, Youtubers and all.

[VegettoEX]

I've always wondered this myself. Especially considering a lot of the music from the Budokai game series is essentially plagiarised rock music, yet still seems to be very praised around here. I think it's a case of people just disliking replacement scores in general, with the Budokai series music getting a free pass because the rock music was there to begin with.

I'd even argue there's a possibility that the Budokai music was made to appeal to both the Japanese and Western fanbases. It makes perfect sense considering the Budokai series was made as a response to the massive success of Z in the US. And both dub and sub fans alike seem to love it, Youtubers and all.

I love the jazzy stuff in Budokai and think the over-the-top rock stuff (double bass pedal, anyone?) mixed in with it is jarring and out of place and I'd rather it not be there.

[90sDBZ]

I've always wondered this myself. Especially considering a lot of the music from the Budokai game series is essentially plagiarised rock music, yet still seems to be very praised around here. I think it's a case of people just disliking replacement scores in general, with the Budokai series music getting a free pass because the rock music was there to begin with.

I'd even argue there's a possibility that the Budokai music was made to appeal to both the Japanese and Western fanbases. It makes perfect sense considering the Budokai series was made as a response to the massive success of Z in the US. And both dub and sub fans alike seem to love it, Youtubers and all.

I love the jazzy stuff in Budokai and think the over-the-top rock stuff (double bass pedal, anyone?) mixed in with it is jarring and out of place and I'd rather it not be there.

Isn't the vast majority of the Budokai music rock based though? It seems to be mainly Budokai 2's story mode that used jazz, while the actual fight music in all 3 games was more or less exclusively rock.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Most here prefer/ have a bias toward the Japanese version and the rock heavy music is just another one of the changes American Dragon Ball Z to alter the show like Goku being turned into Superman.

On the other side the preference for the Kikuchi score is only a majority opinion here. Outside here the vast majority prefer Faulconer's score over anything. But that's a heavy combination of nostalgia and the only experience they have with Kikuchi's music is its badly placed use in Kai. I honestly despised the Kikuchi score when I first heard it in Kai around the Android saga on Nicktoons because the placement was horrid and I was used to the Yamamoto score by that point (though most American Z toonami era fans hated that score too) and didn't really appreciate the Kikuchi score until I started watching Z episodes on FunimationNow.

I do get the sense that a lot of folks here are pretty adverse to any change because of that era, which is completely understandable. Faulconers score wasn't really rock inspired at all, I have no idea what it is inspired by lol just a collection of noises most of the time. I personally think that a lot of the old movie rock song placements FUNi used worked, though granted I have seen the movie with the OG JPN score so my opinion isn't fully fleshed but I think the new Super OP shows how well a rock inspired track can work.

Side note: Funnily enough I didn't hate the Kikuchi placement in Kai. I never had a problem with it, I have had more problems with Sumi-score on TFC lol not as much as I expected mind you given the dislike from the JPN broadcast but there are some doozies in there for sure!

[Rukawa11]

I agree that it comes down to what era the series was produced in. Alternative Rock/ Nu Metal didn't pervade Anime soundtracks until early 2000, so technically anything produced before then would sound awkward.

[VegettoEX]

I agree that it comes down to what era the series was produced in. Alternative Rock/ Nu Metal didn't pervade Anime soundtracks until early 2000, so technically anything produced before then would sound awkward.

FUNimation was simply the last one to drunkenly stumble on the bandwagon, by which point everyone else had already jumped ship.

The quintessential example of this is probably the Street Fighter II movie with Korn and Alice in Chains and KMFDM when it came out here in 1995. My recollection of the last-gasp was the Tekken movie with Stabbing Westward and the Offspring in 1998.

FUNimation with Deftones and Drowning Pool and Pantera and stuff? 2001 through 2003.

[90sDBZ]

I agree that it comes down to what era the series was produced in. Alternative Rock/ Nu Metal didn't pervade Anime soundtracks until early 2000, so technically anything produced before then would sound awkward.

But isn't Dragonball basically a timeless story anyway? I mean it's set in a period were dinosaurs and flying cars co-exist. And all the new material from 2013 onwards is basically a continuation of that same universe. I don't think the era a show was produced in should necessarily dictate that it needs to use contemporary music. I mean there's not really anything in-universe that would suggest that Dragonball/Z is supposed to represent the real life 1980s or 1990s that it was produced in. It's a timeless story set in a bizarre fictional world that happens to be very diverse, and I think many different kinds of music can lend themselves to it quite effectively.

Toei themselves had no problem using drastically different scores for GT, Kai, and the newer material anyway.

[Kunzait_83]

So normally this would be the point where one might expect that I'd argue that "only classical/Wuxia-style music should ever be used in something DB-related". I remember back in the day, years back, there were a number of people here who used to think that due to my immense dislike of the FUNimation/Faulconer scores that I was somehow anti-rock music as a whole, even outside of Dragon Ball.

Anyone who's known me well for even half a split second would know that the idea that I'm somehow an "anti-rock" person is beyond laughably absurd. I was basically raised by and around some of the biggest rock music nerds this side of the United States. Rock is hardcoded into my DNA.

And as much as I've talked at obnoxious length about how big a part of DB's wuxia identity the Kikuchi score is, its not like plenty of Wuxia films & shows haven't steered away from using a classical/traditional-styled Wuxia score going back since roughly the mid-80s. Plenty of stuff in the New Wave-era in the latter 80s and throughout the 90s would steer away from using traditional 1960s/1970s Wuxia scores and instead opt for more modern/contemporary sounds, ranging from pop, synth, and other kinds of electronic music. Hell, A Chinese Ghost Story even has Wu Ma's character bust out into a goddamned hip hop/rap song during a training sequence. Tons of Wuxia has also steered back to more old fashioned, traditional scores as well, especially in the 2000s (a decade that was all about indulging in nostalgia for classical/traditional pre-New Wave Wuxia), but its not like the genre has somehow remained completely and utterly untouched by the hand of modern music for all these years. Quite far from it.

So I'm very much the exact diametric opposite of some anti-rock and roll/classical music snob, and Wuxia as a genre is certainly no stranger to all kinds of modern music (alongside its more traditional type of scores). So why the intense hostility against the Faulconer score?

There's a number of reasons, but the biggest and most overarching of them all comes down to one very simple conclusion, one that ardent fans of the Faulconer score just seem to be unable or unwilling to accept: to people like myself, and tons of others, the Faulconer score is simply just plain terrible, cringingly embarrassing, godawful lousy music in and of itself. Regardless of what kind of show its being used for, its just an atonal mess of noise that most of the time is less pleasant to listen to than the death wail of a child being skinned alive. Its garbage that I wouldn't use to score softcore pornography, much less a show I actually like and have some vested interest in.

Same goes for whoever the fuck scored GT (Menza I think it was?). Or even GT's rap intro. I'm not in the LEAST bit opposed to hip hop music in general. Again, I grew up during and amidst the Golden Age of hip hop. Boogie Down Productions, NWA, Public Enemy, Wu Tang Clan, etc. were as enmeshed into my psyche my whole life as Black Flag, The Melvins, Bad Brains, and Nirvana. Hell, its not even like hip hop and Wuxia don't have an EXTREMELY cozy and long-standing relationship with one another, as I detailed back in the Wuxia thread. It got taken down from youtube sadly (otherwise I'd have linked it here), but there used to be this AMAZING, remarkably well edited music video up that someone made for the Shaw Bros. wuxia classic Bastard Swordsman set to some GZA tracks, and it fit in beautifully.

Like with Faulconer for Z, its not that hip hop COULDN'T in theory work for GT (or any other part of DB for that matter). The problem here, as before, is that GT's FUNi score and intro are just dogshit in and of themselves, as music unto itself, irrespective of what its being used for.

The reason isn't hard to figure out either: these scores were all quick, cheapie, half-assed, amateurish, cash-in gigs made on the fly and on short notice for what FUNimation deemed (at the time) to be just a dumpy, disposable children's cartoon who's sole aim was to make them money. Obviously DB is Toei's own personal piggy bank of a property as well, but its more than obvious that there was a much greater degree of craft and quality control that went into it, as Toei was not only a much bigger and more financially well off company than FUNi, but also had more actual experience with production and thus that had the resources at their disposal to make something with some degree of genuine professionalism to it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a die hard fan of things like punk rock and Z grade horror & action movies: sometimes amateurism, winging it, and lack of resources can not only go a long way, they can even be an asset and part of the charm for some things. That's not ALWAYS the case however, and I think with FUNimation and Dragon Ball the culprit here was a toxic combination of not only amateurism and lack of resources, but moreover a lack of CARE. Amateurism and shoddy production values only have as much charm insofar as there is a genuine sense of care and love for what you're doing.

That's simply NOT the case with the various FUNimation replacement scores, all of them. These were all clearly pure mercenary work, "just have something done and done on time that we can use to fill the dead air with, fuck all as to how it turns out or how well it creatively works". Furthermore, its the kind of "rock" music that's not even really actual rock music in the first place. Its clearly just corporate mandated nonsense based on what some very out of touch middle aged men vaguely thought was "hip" and "in vogue" with "the kids these days" and such at the time. I think a lot of this stuff only really works if you somehow have never actually listened to very much genuine rock music before in your life. Same with GT's "Step into the Grand Tour". The only way I can see that having its intended effect of impressing anybody is if the person in question had never listened to a moment of real hip hop music a day in their lives before that.

And as to some of the actual rock bands that were used in some of the movies and specials? Well, those were all mostly Nu Metal (rare random exceptions like Dream Theater aside). And while I speak for no one else but myself here, my own thoughts and views on Nu Metal are... less than pleasant to put it mildly. The late 90s and early 2000s were NOT at all kind to rock music in the mainstream. Had the series been dubbed with the intent on replacing the score with contemporary rock bands maybe a few years earlier in the 90s, we might very well have gotten some much better bands out of it (the Street Fighter II anime REALLY lucked out there, Korn notwithstanding).

Its not that I think you couldn't make a more rock or electronic or even hip hop oriented score work with Dragon Ball material: its that it also has to be GOOD and well composed and well executed rock/electronic/hip hop music. Irrespective of anything else to do with style or tone or genre, Kikuchi's score simply smokes just about anything and everything that FUNimation has ever produced for this series music-wise just in terms of pure craft and execution. The melodies are WAY more evocative and transportive, as opposed to just droning, mindless background noise.

I love, LOVE plenty of electronic music, plenty of particularly harsh and crazily experimental and abstract shit, but if you're an electronic music buff and Faulconer DBZ ranks high up on your list of favorites, I'm simply at a loss then. To me that's like being a hardcore fan of the score to something similarly junky like the 1980s G.I. Joe cartoon or whatever other random, trashy kids cartoon you can name. That's kind of the biggest problem with trying to compare Faulconer with Kikuchi. Faulconer's music sounds of a piece with some "who gives a fuck" careless tack-on score for a disposable, merch-shilling kids action cartoon, whereas Kikuchi's fits right in with any classic Shaw Bros. score. For all the wincingly stupid Youtube comments talk about how the Faulconer score is so much more "epic", really its Kikuchi's that is genuinely cinematic, whereas Faulconer is perfectly suited to a 90s toy commercial.

That's the biggest part of it overall. But with that said, I actually do very much LOVE that a more old fashioned, traditional Wuxia score was ultimately used for DB/Z. Dragon Ball was already in most ways such a contemporary example of genre blending as it was, and I think that the more old fashioned Wuxia score was (intentionally or unintentionally) a really effective way of still anchoring all the flashy newness of it with the genre's past. As much crazy, wacky Toriyama-isms as Dragon Ball throws at you, the score never lets you forget for a moment where its real heart and soul actually lies.

That for as much Hoi Poi Capsules and dinosaurs and hover bikes and cyborgs and space aliens and whatever other nonsense it conjures, beneath it all this is still a VERY familiar, very old fashioned and well trodden tale of mighty, noble, strong willed, heroic martial arts warriors training and competing and growing to their pinnacle, before another generation of fighters emerges to take their place.

I also don't really understand what this obsession is that so many folks here have with "updating" Dragon Ball to sound and look 100% of a piece with present day anime titles. You've already got that with Dragon Ball Super, and hell now even with Kai which gave the Z series the full George Lucas treatment. I don't really understand what it is that some people here want exactly. Whether you like it or not, this was a mid 80s to mid 90s Japanese anime series first and foremost, and nothing's ever going to really alter that.

If you love the Faulconer version so much, that already exists. If you want the original Z series with more contemporary Shonen anime music, that's where Kai comes in. And if you just want 100% fresh brand new content that looks and feels like a modern Shonen anime from scratch, you've got Super. I think that some people here won't honestly be happy unless someone really invents time travel and we can all go back and somehow make it so that the original rendition of Z never existed in that capacity at all and it all really did somehow start fully formed from Toei as the FUNimation version from late 90s/early 2000 Toonami.

Mike/EX is the only person who's even kind of approached talking about what I think is the root core problem lurking behind a lot of these discussions: I think a LOT of people were very thoroughly sold on Dragon Ball Z being this totally contemporary "new hotness" entity that supposedly embodied the zeitgeist of the time (late 90s/early 2000s) and finding out that it wasn't originally actually that at all just... fucks with some people's minds on some deep seated gut reactionary level that maybe even they're not fully aware of.

I digress though. So as much as I think the FUNimation replacement music fails on its own even divorced from how well it fits with DB, I also do very much appreciate that DB keeps one foot as much rooted in its genre's past as it does with where its genre was contemporaneously within the then-present 1980s and 90s. It makes for a very striking and memorable combination.

But really, a LOT of it with the Faulconer stuff is that its just bad, bad, bad, unlistenably tasteless music all by itself.