Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Discussion regarding any musical aspect of the franchise, from game soundtracks to BGM to remixes. Upcoming & classic CDs, reviews, where to find them, and more!

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Bullza
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8262
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Bullza » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:03 am

Doctor. wrote:Sumitomo's score was nothing like Faulconer's outside of the synth at the start of Super, which got dropped in the following arcs and was hated almost unanimously.


I just said it was more like it, not that it was like it.

Whereas the Kikuchi's had a mostly dreary and old fashioned score that was mainly just depressing. The Faulconer score was more upbeat and blood pumping as it was a bit more rock based.

The Dragon Ball Super score was never really depressing to listen to and it's not outdated. So when you here something like The Ultimate Tag Team or The Theme of the Saiyans then that sounds more like something you'd here from Faulconer than Kikuchi.

User avatar
Doctor.
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10386
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Doctor. » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:21 am

Bullza wrote:Whereas the Kikuchi's had a mostly dreary and old fashioned score that was mainly just depressing.


Well, that's just not true in the slightest. It may have a solemn feel, but it can also be hopeful and cheerful.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Regular
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby MasenkoHA » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:42 am

What little I've heard of the Sumitomo score is so blah though. I watch a comparison video between Super Buu killing everyone on earth in the Z dub vs Kai the Final Chapters and it killed me to admit it but I preferred the Z dub version because much as I loathe the Faulconer score as a whole the Super Buu theme is pretty effin awesome.


The Kikuuchi score is dated NOW but it was made in the mid 80s and lasted until the mid 90s. You know what is also dated NOW? The Bruce Faulconer score.


And yeah I don't get Bullza's Kikuchi score was depressing comment in the slightest. It's pretty freakin upbeat. Especially in the Dragon Ball days. It had a much much wider range of emotion than the Faulconer where Faulcouner's score has a very limited range of emotion.

User avatar
Bullza
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8262
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Bullza » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:13 am

Doctor. wrote:Well, that's just not true in the slightest. It may have a solemn feel, but it can also be hopeful and cheerful.


Those are upbeat but then that has the other problem I mentioned. That sounds like something you would hear in those 70's martial arts movies even though it was a 90's series. It ages the show terribly.

Also the first half of that second link really was dreary. I could post loads of dreary tracks to, there's probably more of them.

A better example just seems to be finding the scenes though. Like this scene where Gohan pulls out the Z Sword, around 2:50 in....it's just the most depressing music that you could possibly hear in what is supposed to be a triumphant scene where Supreme Kai is happy yet the music makes you want to cut yourself.

Compared to the Faulconer music in the same scene, it really is just horrible to listen to and a vast amount of the show sounds like that. It's a really boring and depressing show to watch without the Faulconer score.

MasenkoHA wrote:And yeah I don't get Bullza's Kikuchi score was depressing comment in the slightest. It's pretty freakin upbeat. Especially in the Dragon Ball days. It had a much much wider range of emotion than the Faulconer where Faulcouner's score has a very limited range of emotion.


It was able to get away with it in Dragon Ball because the show was older and looks older. It was a somewhat better fit because the series was like the old Chinese martial arts movies. So it did fit having that 70's style music.

Dragon Ball Z it doesn't suit at all, it's music makes the show look 20 years older than it is and it's a Sci Fi action series with a lot of fast paced action and intensity. The Kikuchi score is slow and dreary.

Especially with scenes like I mentioned above with Gohan shouting and doing his really intense and dramatic power up when he goes Ultimate for the first time and the music makes it sound like a comedic scene and perhaps what you would hear when Goku and Krillin were racing each other to get the stone.

Then there's other iconic scenes like Goku turning Super Saiyan 3, one of the most popular scenes mainly because of the Faulconer music otherwise....it's the same depressing music.

Vegeta goes Super Saiyan...same depressing music. Vegeta does the Final Flash on Cell...same depressing music and so on.

User avatar
IHaveNoUserName
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby IHaveNoUserName » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:36 am

Bullza wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Well, that's just not true in the slightest. It may have a solemn feel, but it can also be hopeful and cheerful.


Those are upbeat but then that has the other problem I mentioned. That sounds like something you would hear in those 70's martial arts movies even though it was a 90's series. It ages the show terribly.

Also the first half of that second link really was dreary. I could post loads of dreary tracks to, there's probably more of them.

A better example just seems to be finding the scenes though. Like this scene where Gohan pulls out the Z Sword, around 2:50 in....it's just the most depressing music that you could possibly hear in what is supposed to be a triumphant scene where Supreme Kai is happy yet the music makes you want to cut yourself.

Compared to the Faulconer music in the same scene, it really is just horrible to listen to and a vast amount of the show sounds like that. It's a really boring and depressing show to watch without the Faulconer score.

MasenkoHA wrote:And yeah I don't get Bullza's Kikuchi score was depressing comment in the slightest. It's pretty freakin upbeat. Especially in the Dragon Ball days. It had a much much wider range of emotion than the Faulconer where Faulcouner's score has a very limited range of emotion.


It was able to get away with it in Dragon Ball because the show was older and looks older. It was a somewhat better fit because the series was like the old Chinese martial arts movies. So it did fit having that 70's style music.

Dragon Ball Z it doesn't suit at all, it's music makes the show look 20 years older than it is and it's a Sci Fi action series with a lot of fast paced action and intensity. The Kikuchi score is slow and dreary.

Especially with scenes like I mentioned above with Gohan shouting and doing his really intense and dramatic power up when he goes Ultimate for the first time and the music makes it sound like a comedic scene and perhaps what you would hear when Goku and Krillin were racing each other to get the stone.

Then there's other iconic scenes like Goku turning Super Saiyan 3, one of the most popular scenes mainly because of the Faulconer music otherwise....it's the same depressing music.

Vegeta goes Super Saiyan...same depressing music. Vegeta does the Final Flash on Cell...same depressing music and so on.


Haha okay you just said that it's depressing music for SSJ3 and Final Flash for kikuchi score, I like faulconer but I beg to differ that it isn't depressing music, there is a reason why it sounds like martial arts music maybe because Dragon Ball iwas originally about martial arts. The kikuchi score has some fast paced BGM such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFTzggtD_uo, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAFmz3q2qiA, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWcetjED-Gw, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jAOsa7kzA4, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dFJz7kmNK8

User avatar
kenisu3000
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 869
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:32 am
Location: Places and stuff...
Contact:

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby kenisu3000 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:45 pm

For the life of me I will never understand this idea that "old" automatically equals "bad". If you ask me, we're currently in the dark ages of film/TV scoring. The old stuff is the good stuff.

If you think the music in certain scenes in the Japanese TV series is unfitting, it's not Kikuchi's fault, it's the person who tracked the episode and re-purposed Kikuchi's music from the movies. But in the case of the example you bring up (Gohan's first transformation using the powers he got from Elder Kaioshin), I still think the score fits. The music used here is "Small Superheroes" from Movie 11, which is a downright jubilant cue and not "dreary" at all. Just because the Japanese version approached things from a different angle than you expected doesn't make it "dreadful". The music does NOT have to be hardcore to bring out the energy of a scene.

And DragonBall didn't just suddenly make this dramatic switch over to full sci-fi genre when it added a Z. It remained a martial arts series at its heart and merely gained a sci-fi dressing.
BGM forever! If only more people paid attention to it... well, I intend to change that.

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Asura » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:24 pm

kenisu3000 wrote:If you think the music in certain scenes in the Japanese TV series is unfitting, it's not Kikuchi's fault, it's the person who tracked the episode and re-purposed Kikuchi's music from the movies.

Yeah, music placement isn't Kikuchi's fault but it still hurts the reputation of it. Funny enough I was watching the episode last night in JP where Gohan makes a friend with a dinosaur before the T-Rex comes and kills it at the end (pretty brutal stuff in comparison to Super) and they start playing this upbeat sort of goofy theme while Gohan is just standing over the carcass of his friend.

User avatar
Bullza
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8262
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Bullza » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:55 pm



But then in that circumstance, four out of those five tracks all sound practically the same which is a big flaw with that soundtrack in general that too much of it just sounds too similar. Only that fifth track there stood out somewhat from the other four.

kenisu3000 wrote:For the life of me I will never understand this idea that "old" automatically equals "bad". If you ask me, we're currently in the dark ages of film/TV scoring. The old stuff is the good stuff.


It's not that it's old. Dragon Ball Z in general is old but the show itself isn't dated. The Kikuchi score sounded dated even for when it came out in the 90's. Dragon Ball Super's soundtrack does not sound dated, it matches the time that it came out, same with Dragon Ball Kai.

The music used here is "Small Superheroes" from Movie 11, which is a downright jubilant cue and not "dreary" at all. Just because the Japanese version approached things from a different angle than you expected doesn't make it "dreadful". The music does NOT have to be hardcore to bring out the energy of a scene.


I know that track isn't dreary and that's​ the problem. In a fairly dramatic and intense scene why are they playing a track that sounds like it should be used in a comedic scene? It is completely unfitting of the scene. You'd expect to hear that when he's fooling around as the Great Saiyaman or something, it made a joke of the scene.

The Faulconer score played not only a better track in that scene but an appropriate one.

User avatar
IHaveNoUserName
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby IHaveNoUserName » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:14 pm

Bullza wrote:


But then in that circumstance, four out of those five tracks all sound practically the same which is a big flaw with that soundtrack in general that too much of it just sounds too similar. Only that fifth track there stood out somewhat from the other four.

kenisu3000 wrote:For the life of me I will never understand this idea that "old" automatically equals "bad". If you ask me, we're currently in the dark ages of film/TV scoring. The old stuff is the good stuff.


It's not that it's old. Dragon Ball Z in general is old but the show itself isn't dated. The Kikuchi score sounded dated even for when it came out in the 90's. Dragon Ball Super's soundtrack does not sound dated, it matches the time that it came out, same with Dragon Ball Kai.

The music used here is "Small Superheroes" from Movie 11, which is a downright jubilant cue and not "dreary" at all. Just because the Japanese version approached things from a different angle than you expected doesn't make it "dreadful". The music does NOT have to be hardcore to bring out the energy of a scene.


I know that track isn't dreary and that's​ the problem. In a fairly dramatic and intense scene why are they playing a track that sounds like it should be used in a comedic scene? It is completely unfitting of the scene. You'd expect to hear that when he's fooling around as the Great Saiyaman or something, it made a joke of the scene.

The Faulconer score played not only a better track in that scene but an appropriate one.


They dont all sound the same maybe M1525 and M1522, there are a few more fast paced BGM

User avatar
Diccolo-420
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Diccolo-420 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:31 pm

I prefer faulconer, but you can't say Kikuchi is has a bad composition by any stretch of the imagination. Are there times where the tracks don't match? Sure, Toei has gotten lazier and lazier when it comes to scoring their material. Just look at the sumitomo score of kai. If Z had a 100% top notch scoring for kikuchi that would make it even better. Faulconer had the same problem where tracks played that didn't belong there.

My gripe with kikuchi is that none of the tracks are actually named and they come in packages, so it's really hard to find tracks I want to hear sometimes.

I will say this though: even though I prefer faulconer for Z, nothing will ever replace kikuchi for OG dragon ball. Ever.

User avatar
IHaveNoUserName
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:31 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby IHaveNoUserName » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:19 am

Diccolo-420 wrote:I prefer faulconer, but you can't say Kikuchi is has a bad composition by any stretch of the imagination. Are there times where the tracks don't match? Sure, Toei has gotten lazier and lazier when it comes to scoring their material. Just look at the sumitomo score of kai. If Z had a 100% top notch scoring for kikuchi that would make it even better. Faulconer had the same problem where tracks played that didn't belong there.

My gripe with kikuchi is that none of the tracks are actually named and they come in packages, so it's really hard to find tracks I want to hear sometimes.

I will say this though: even though I prefer faulconer for Z, nothing will ever replace kikuchi for OG dragon ball. Ever.


I 100% agree with you, Toei has had mistakes and got really lazy when it came to the Kikuchi Replacement score

Blondiebear_17
Newbie
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:11 am

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Blondiebear_17 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:03 am

I prefer Faulconer. While I think the music for Dragon Ball is so appropriate for the tone of the series I feel like the Japanese Music fro DBZ sounds too over dramatic and old fashioned. I really prefer Yamamoto or Sumitomo. I don't know if the poor audio on most of the releases might make the whole show sound more dated in general to me though it feels like the show is 20 years older than it is the way it sounds.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2435
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Kunzait_83 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:26 am

Bullza wrote:And even though the show by this point was in the mid 90's, the music sounds that dated that it's like something you would hear in some of those really naff Chinese martial arts movies in the 70's.


Bullza wrote:That sounds like something you would hear in those 70's martial arts movies even though it was a 90's series. It ages the show terribly.


Dragon Ball literally and unequivocally IS one of those cheesy 70s martial arts movies, made as a serial TV anime.

Understand something guys: at a certain point, these kinds of convos can sometimes go beyond just personal preference and delve into just what's correct and incorrect about how the show was originally produced and for what type of audience.

Getting COMPLETELY past the idea of what one personally prefers, lets establish a few things here: the Faulconer score was produced for the express purpose of helping to reinvent the tone and presentation of Dragon Ball Z as an American Action Cartoon along the lines of G.I. Joe, Transformers, Justice League, etc. featuring characters of a superheroic nature fighting supervillains and saving the world every week.

Whether or not you personally prefer that version of the show is irrelevant: that isn't in any way what this show was originally produced to convey or embody in its native form. Dragon Ball, from Pilaf through Boo, was made to embody classic (and yes, decidedly cheesy) Chinese martial arts fantasy films of the 60s, 70s, and 80s in the form of a more longform serialized manga and anime TV series.

Everything from the characters being hermetic weirdos out in the middle of nowhere training to master superhumanly powerful kung fu Chi techniques from ancient Taoist lore, to using those techniques to compete against each other in tournaments and to fight against other rivals and settle old scores or test their skills against despotic tyrannical emperors or ancient demons, to traveling around the afterlife and train with gods and deities from Buddhist lore, all the way down to even the presence of weird sci fi concepts like Hoi Poi Capsules, cyborgs, futuristic cities with hovercrafts, space aliens, and time traveling bio creatures getting into the mix (because lets not forget that sci fi didn't just suddenly come into the picture with Z: its been a part of the series' makeup from the very first chapter onward, and moreover sci fi concepts cropping up in martial arts fantasy is hardly unique or specific to just DB/Z)...

...EVERYTHING you see in DB reflects and represents what kung fu fantasy films of the past several decades - up to and including DB's time in which it was made - were generally doing. There simply IS NO "stark tonal shift" that happens from end of original Dragon Ball to the beginning of DBZ that somehow "justifies" the idea that "Kikuchi may have fit original DB, but definitely didn't fit DBZ": that very notion is largely completely made up by people who are looking for after-the-fact excuses and rationalizations to justify their own initial perceptions of how the series was first presented to them (where the dub for DBZ ran very hard with the whole "hardcore badass superhero action squad" thing while the dub for DB stuck somewhat more closely to the original martial arts theme).

In reality, the WHOLE anime in its Japanese form from DB episode 1 to DBZ episode 291 marks a fairly consistent tone of "whimsically bent Chinese-rooted kung fu fairy tale with equal parts ridiculous slapstick and violent fighting" with a VEEEEERY graaaaaadual bending and tweaking of that tone that occurs to its full completion well long prior to the transition from DB to DBZ.

Whether you like it or not, whether you prefer the "reversioning" of the tone and story/characters done by a company wholly unrelated to the show's creation more than a decade after the fact, it doesn't ultimately matter... what you are ultimately watching is the footage from a show that was originally made as a gigantic love letter to hokey and weird Chinese martial arts fantasy films of the 60s-90s. The Kikuchi score was made in large part to REFLECT that. It not only suits the material, it cannot POSSIBLY be more appropriately befitting of the material in question.

I'd go so far as to argue that one of the net effects of the FUNimation dub's production (the score being a major component in it, along with the heavy script rewrites) was to in some ways alter the very GENRE of what it is that Dragon Ball is representing. Because the types of 90s kids superheroic action cartoons from America are in NO way similar or related in ANY way to the kinds of wuxia films that DB was in actual fact imitating and paying homage to. Shows like Beast Wars or Batman Beyond, and whatever else have you have NOTHING in the way of common ground whatsoever with mystical kung fu movies like Zu Warriors, Duel to the Death, Buddha's Palm, etc. most of which in the case of the latter films are scored MUCH more in the same vein as Kikuchi.

And I'm sorry, but a generalized "action comedy" label to tag DB/Z with is an unbelievably vague and unhelpfully nondescript non-classification that in NO WAY gets at the heart of what DB/Z is ultimately doing: clearly this series is aiming for something MUCH more specific, something that can CLEARLY be seen and pointed to in MOUNTAINS of other similar works.

People can argue that Faulconer's score is much more fitting of a late 90s American action superhero cartoon show, and they'd be correct in making that argument: but this gets COMPLETELY away from the fact that Dragon Ball/Z is in no remote way a late 90s American action superhero show. That's NOT what it was produced as originally and that's NOT the audience it was made for. It was RE-PURPOSED and REWORKED into being that kind of show more than ten years after it was originally finished in Japan.

If you like and prefer that re-purposing of the show, then great, splendid, good for you. No one's trying to take that away from you: but that has NOTHING to do remotely with whether or not the original production score "fit or suit the material". The fact is, it PERFECTLY fits and suits the material AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED AND INTENDED. It doesn't fit or suit what that material was much later on re-imagined into being by a totally unrelated outside company, which is ultimately the interpretation of the show that dub/Faulconer fans are in love with.

Its fine to prefer that version, and its fine to not like or not give a crap about Chinese martial arts fantasy as a genre: but understand that when you talk about the FUNimation DBZ dub, you are talking about something with VERY different creative intentions for a VERY different type of audience than that of the originally produced show in question that it takes its footage from.

Whether dub and Faulconer fans like it or not, Dragon Ball/Z in its Japanese production is a thoroughly massive pastiche on Chinese martial arts folklore as represented in cheesy kung fu fantasy films for almost an entire century now (literally since the silent film era). The dub, knowing its audience of late 90s/early 2000s American middle school kids wouldn't know nor care about that stuff but WOULD like the surface-level superficiality of a much more generalized cool action show, went to the trouble of drastically retooling the whole package (including particularly the score) and re-inventing it as the next animated equivalent to Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers.

Both the Kikuchi and Faulconer scores perfectly fit both of those drastically opposing and clashing intentions in their respective versions of the series. But understand that what separates those two starkly different intentions and interpretations of this series is that only ONE of those two reflects the original creative intentions and vision of the series' creator/author and the original production team that was actually responsible for writing, drawing, and animating the fucking thing in the first place (and thus giving it life to begin with): and it damn sure isn't Faulconer/FUNimation.

My ultimate point here is: its one thing to personally prefer a later re-invented alternate version of something. Its quite another to then turn around and say "this later reversion is so intrinsically superior that it gets and understands the material way better than the original did" when the very core aims of the two versions are in no way remotely even close to related.

One's a matter of personal preference. The other is just blindingly ignorant and disrespectful towards the material (and moreover, its key creative influences) that MADE THE VERY SHOW YOU LOVE SO MUCH POSSIBLE TO EVEN EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Without those "naf" Chinese martial arts flicks, you simply wouldn't HAVE any Dragon Ball/Z. In ANY capacity. Period.

Whether or not you enjoy Kikuchi's score as either music unto itself or as a score for what you perceive as your beloved childhood hard rockin' superhero fightfest cartoon is TOTALLY unrelated and irrelevant toward whether or not it "fits" or "suits" the material as it was originally conceived and intended. And no matter how you slice it or dice it, the Kikuchi score, be it "good" or "bad" music unto itself, it could not POSSIBLY be a better fit to suit this anime series' tone in its original intended form.

Saying you prefer Faulconer over Kikuchi is one thing: I vociferously disagree with that of course, but I can respect and engage with that in a reasonable manner as simply a matter of vastly differing tastes. Saying (or even IMPLYING) that Kikuchi (and by extension Toei and possibly even Toriyama himself) somehow didn't "understand" this material and "misjudged" it by giving it the "dated" style of score that they did is something PROFOUNDLY more ridiculous and downright stupid and disrespectful to the core heart and soul of the very work that people here purport to love so much to begin with. Because if that kind of "they misjudged what they were scoring" sentiment should be applied anyone, it'd unquestionably be to FUNimation and to Faulconer Productions above all else.

That Kikuchi makes Dragon Ball/Z sound like an old cheesy martial arts movie is most certainly NOT a bug, and its not even merely a feature: its in direct support of the very reason that this series even exists at all in the first place... that reason being cheesy (and very, VERY old) kung fu fantasy stories based on ancient Chinese myths. Those have a VERY distinct style of film score that has gone with them for the better part of several decades prior to DB's creation: having the anime be made with a similar score is hardly in ANY way ill-fitting to the material.

The only way it might come off as "ill-fitting" to someone is if they simply don't know about, have not seen, and/or just don't care about the kinds of martial arts fantasy films, TV shows, and assorted material that DB is drawing directly from to give it life and its overall direction. Which, lets be honest, this applies to a VAST overwhelming chunk of Dragon Ball's Western audience, both sub AND dub fans alike, who generally comprise people who are FAR more familiar with and fond of the kinds of generalized American kids' action/superhero cartoons that the Faulconer score is trying to help reinvent this series as, and typically have utterly zero experience with or interest in films and television shows that actually represent DB's genre of absurdly over the top Chinese-derived martial arts high fantasy.

This core distinction is literally where just about damn near close to ALL of the discrepancy and conflict between different sects of American DB/Z fandom ultimately comes down to, regardless of whether or not most of them clearly sees and understands it for what it is.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread

Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.


Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.


Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Regular
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby MasenkoHA » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:47 am

kenisu3000 wrote:For the life of me I will never understand this idea that "old" automatically equals "bad". If you ask me, we're currently in the dark ages of film/TV scoring. The old stuff is the good stuff.
. .


I agree with this 110 percent. I miss the movie scores of the 70s/80s that were just so big and grand. I think music scores try waaay to hard to be I dunno lowkey

As for preferences. I think people only dislike Kikuchi’s music for DBZ but accept it for Dragon Ball because that’s how it was presented to them. I’m willig to be very few would dislike the Kikuchi score if Funi had kept it from the beginning

User avatar
Slangh
Newbie
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 1:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Slangh » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:32 pm

Dragon Ball remains its own thing, regardless of what it was based on or what its music is supposed to intend. Intentions or historical homages aren't that relevant to the average viewer, whether music fits the scene or not matters the most. Does it make the scene memorable or improve it, that's the question. Kikuchi's score works most of the time, other times Faulconer's score works better.

Kikuchi's score is more consistent and subtle, not to mention there's room for silence. All in all Dragon Ball is just 'easier' to hear with this score and gives it more subtext, especially with the original cast, without annoying added dialogue and explanations. I guess it's a zen kind of thing, there's more calmness. Sometimes the placement of the score makes it sound generic and indifferent, with the exact same tunes playing in key moments as well in less relevant ones. Most of the happy or peaceful music sounds a bit too goofy to me. But other times you can hear rare pieces that hit the nail on the head, like when 18 says 'see you later' against Krillin. Really beautiful. The sometimes generic placement in the series is probably because a lot of pieces were just taken from the movies, where they fit best. Movie 12 is my favorite.

Faulconer's score varies a lot in quality. In contrast with the Kikuchi's score this one tries really hard to fit the scenes and leaves no room for subtlety, with varying results. Personally I hate most of the tunes that were supposed to be goofy or fun sounding, way more than the happy tunes of Kikuchi. Faulconer's were annoying at best. Then there are the great themes that not only fit but also enhance the scene. The SSJ3 transformation is a great example of how the score was used: 'epic' music for this transformation which is interrupted by a goofy moment with Mr. Satan, which of course needed bad goofy music, even though it lasts for only 5 seconds. But of course many of the specific themes are great, like the themes of Vegeta, Porunga, Majin Buu, Super Buu, Kid Buu, Imperfect Cell, etc.. The music playing during the transformations of Ginyu, Vegeta, Cell (imperfect but especially perfect) and SSJ3 Goku are also highlights.

Because of it's incessant playing and lack of subtlety Faulconer can't beat Kikuchi even if it has some really great themes. The Japanese music also has rare insert songs which adds to its freshness.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2435
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Kunzait_83 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:33 pm

Slangh wrote:Dragon Ball remains its own thing, regardless of what it was based on or what its music is supposed to intend. Intentions or historical homages aren't that relevant to the average viewer, whether music fits the scene or not matters the most. Does it make the scene memorable or improve it, that's the question.


My above response wasn't even about the "average viewer" though (in a Western sense at least): this is a discussion on a DB forum that both caters to and is populated largely by hardcore DB nerds. Getting deep into the weeds about how the series was made, what it was based on, where it came from in a creative etymological sense, and so on is part and parcel of the whole entire point of this place. This obsession that some folks here have had for awhile now with every discussion about every point being kept as "casual friendly" and basic as humanly possible is completely antithetical to a site like Kanzenshuu, which is all about keeping things as informed and informational as humanly possible.

The point that I was responding to was the sentiment of "Kikuchi's score sucks an doesn't fit the series because it makes the series sound like some cheesy, old kung fu movie". The correct response to that sentiment is "Yeah, no kidding it does: that's the entire point of both the score, and of Dragon Ball itself in general". Its almost ENTIRELY because Dragon Ball was repackaged and revised into presenting itself in the U.S. as a much more generic sci fi/superheroic American action cartoon along the lines of stuff like your average TMNT or Power Rangers knockoff that most U.S. audiences would be perplexed and dumbfounded when finding out that the series was originally presented as anything else BUT that.

Otherwise, we simply would not be having discussions like this one time and time and time and time and time again over the years/decades. There simply would be NO controversy as to the overall "suitability" (which is totally different from whether or not one finds it to be "good" or "bad" music in itself to their tastes) of the show's original native score. Like it or don't like it, it is 10,000% genre appropriate to this material.

It's honestly NO different than if someone slagged off on John Williams' Star Wars theme and said "This score sucks because it dates Star Wars into sounding like some cheesy space opera serial from the 50s". Again, no shit: that's the whole entire point for Star Wars existing as it does. I don't give a crap how "casual" and "average a viewer" you are: there simply IS NO separating something like Star Wars from its creative DNA of "cheesy space opera serial from the 40s and 50s". It exists in the form that it does ENTIRELY BECAUSE OF THAT, and the moment you take it far enough away from that is the moment it suddenly stops feeling anything like Star Wars anymore.

Its no different at all with Dragon Ball: without being a love letter to classic (and contemporary for its time) Chinese Wuxia and kung fu fantasy films, Dragon Ball would not exist AT ALL. The score is 100% indicative of and reflecting that core, key aspect of the series that gives it its entire lifeblood and reason for existing as it does.

Also another thing while we're at it: responses like this always come at it from a Western lens and presupposes up front that Chinese Wuxia films are somehow as obscure and unknown universally across the world as they are in North America (at least nowadays). That simply is TOTALLY and categorically untrue in every which way: kung fu fantasy films of the kind that DB is based on are INCREDIBLY widespread, popular, and very much ingrained into most Southeast Asian pop culture, among kids and adults alike.

They're very much the Asian equivalent of something like Westerns or sword and sorcery epics within those parts of the world, as endemic and universal to audiences in those regions as any other commonly known pulp genre you can name, and with many of their films occupying much the same mainstream realm in that part of the world as summer blockbusters in North America. DB rooting itself firmly within that kind of genre is hardly something that would go over the heads or be unnoticed by even the most average and general of viewers within the culture of its intended audience.

Its only when its imported to a faraway foreign region like North America that all of a sudden this essential and thuddingly, blindingly fucking obvious aspect of the series suddenly becomes this obscure and arcane piece of apocrypha that most average viewers and casual fans will look at you weirdly for mentioning or trying to delve into: all the more so when the most commonly seen and consumed version of this series had carefully and thoroughly did everything it possibly could to surgically remove as many traces of that genre lineage as it possibly could, shy of reanimating the whole thing from scratch.

The only POSSIBLE way that you get this level of confusion and bafflement about something as endemic as a given work's very tone or genre that's this widespread for something as otherwise mainstream as DB/Z is when that tone and genre was so blatantly and deeply fucked with in the translation, and when that original tone and genre is much more specific to pop culture in one part of the world while being much less mainstream and more underground in another.

It also doesn't help that most Western DB fans apparently don't understand what the basic definition of the word "genre" even is, and almost universally will cite DB's genre as "Shonen": which isn't a genre at all, but simply means "made for Japanese children, little boys specifically". A demographic which encompass a TON of wildly different and varying genres (horror, sci fi, detective noir, sports, superheroes, slice of life sitcom, etc), DB's martial arts fantasy simply being one among them.

A mistake which also further DEEPLY skews the whole fandom's focus away from the real roots of DB's creative content, looking instead to much later Japanese shows about pirates, cooking, and trading cards and such (and which only have anything tangentially in common with DB in terms of story beats, plot formula, and character types because DB made a boatload of money), rather than at actual contemporaneous material about masters of mystical superhuman Taoist martial arts living in faraway fantasy lands who are constantly seeking to improve themselves as fighters.

AND this whole confusion is even MORE compounded that much further when the general culture surrounding most of DB's Western fanbase is as willfully cut off and disassociated as it generally is from most forms of film, TV, or general media (even some VERY mainstream ones) that aren't merchandising behemoths targeted primarily at small children in the first place, particularly on channels like Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, Disney Channel, etc. which only that much further skews the eye of its overall broader critical focus away from a LOT of other forms of media and narrowing it down solely to a relatively small and specific niche.

The layers to which this particular fanbase has buried, cocooned, and niched itself hopelessly far, far, far away from even being CAPABLE of seeing where something like DB originated from and the critical context that surrounds its very creation are dense and numerous.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread

Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.


Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.


Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5775
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Gaffer Tape » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:18 pm

I, too, must echo my perennial confusion at people making the claim "Kikuchi's score fits for DB but not for DBZ." It's a viewpoint that, to me, belies the kind of out of sequence viewing order that most Americans were subjected to in regards to this series. That, in turn, implies a fondness of familiarity as well. They were introduced to DBZ with this type of music, and so they like it, and it fits. Then several years later, they were introduced to DB with the original type of music, so it fit. I'd like to say chances are they probably only paid a passing glance to DB and viewed it as a "silly old DBZ prequel" (which is incorrect in every single word of that phrase) only necessary to fill in backstory, but I'd probably be making too many assumptions at that point.

But part of what leads me to say that is that I find it almost impossible to imagine that someone could watch 153 episodes of Dragon Ball, pop in the next disc for Z 1, and immediately go, "Oh, geez. This music I listened to for 153 episodes that fit perfectly well? It doesn't fit this at all anymore! It needs more synthesized rock guitars!" I mean, Z episode 1 picks up where the previous episode left off. Same characters. Same world. Same animators. Same voice actors. Same story. The only difference is that a man from space shows up. Otherwise, it's 15 minutes of Gohan dicking around in the woods, which in itself is a clear homage to Goku doing the same thing in DB episode 1.

I could almost buy the excuse of the whole outer space thing, but the fact of the matter is, the first big chunk of Z, the Saiyan Arc, has almost no "sci-fi" trappings (you know, aside from Capsules and advanced technology that DB has always had from day one). It has its three villain characters, one scene of Nappa and Vegeta on an alien planet, and two filler episodes out of 35 taking place on an alien planet, one of which is actually just a vision quest. The rest? The same martial arts training stuff you would have gotten prior to this. The same types of battles and violence found in the last major story arc, only now the hero can give himself a red aura. The introduction of a very, very, very Eastern-inspired afterlife so in your face even a 12-year-old American kid could pick up on it.

So, no, I don't buy the idea that Kikuchi fits for DB but DBZ is such a radical departure right out of the gate that it requires a new score. I contend it's familiarity breeding resistance to what you're not used to.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 12/11/18!)
Current Episode: Endless Island Adventure - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 11!

User avatar
Doctor.
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10386
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby Doctor. » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:58 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:snip

I'm curious. What are your thoughts on Yamamoto's Kai score?

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7789
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby ekrolo2 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:06 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:snip

I'm curious. What are your thoughts on Yamamoto's Kai score?

Hates it from what I recall, at least he considers it a massive downgrade from Yamamoto's work on the Budokai games.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Regular
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Bruce Faulconer or Shunsuke Kikuchi ?

Postby MasenkoHA » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:25 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:I, too, must echo my perennial confusion at people making the claim "Kikuchi's score fits for DB but not for DBZ." It's a viewpoint that, to me, belies the kind of out of sequence viewing order that most Americans were subjected to in regards to this series. That, in turn, implies a fondness of familiarity as well. They were introduced to DBZ with this type of music, and so they like it, and it fits. Then several years later, they were introduced to DB with the original type of music, so it fit. I'd like to say chances are they probably only paid a passing glance to DB and viewed it as a "silly old DBZ prequel" (which is incorrect in every single word of that phrase) only necessary to fill in backstory, but I'd probably be making too many assumptions at that point.


I don't think that's an unfair assumption. I think for a lot of North American fans Dragon Ball is like a less awful version of the Star Wars prequels. It's just unnecessary backstory to them. Not helping Toonami basically promoted it like some sort of Muppet Babies thing "They're so cute at that age" But again it's only DBZ that fans have a problem with the Kikuchi music. Nobody bats an eye with Dragon Ball using it or say it's bad (or less umm savory adjectives).Shoot I doubt that many people cared when Toonami aired the first 3 movies with the Japanese music intact back in the late 90s. It's only NOW when people look back with Faulconer's music as part of the package of the show they remembered that they care and get upset hearing something else to it.

The same people who like the Faulconer music but also hate the Kikuchi music (when it comes to DBZ) tend to not like Yamamoto's music either which also feels way more like a Space epic.



But part of what leads me to say that is that I find it almost impossible to imagine that someone could watch 153 episodes of Dragon Ball, pop in the next disc for Z 1, and immediately go, "Oh, geez. This music I listened to for 153 episodes that fit perfectly well? It doesn't fit this at all anymore! It needs more synthesized rock guitars!" I mean, Z episode 1 picks up where the previous episode left off.

5 years isn't exactly where the previous left off...



Same characters. Same world. Same animators. Same voice actors. Same story. The only difference is that a man from space shows up. Otherwise, it's 15 minutes of Gohan dicking around in the woods, which in itself is a clear homage to Goku doing the same thing in DB episode 1.

I could almost buy the excuse of the whole outer space thing, but the fact of the matter is, the first big chunk of Z, the Saiyan Arc, has almost no "sci-fi" trappings (you know, aside from Capsules and advanced technology that DB has always had from day one). It has its three villain characters, one scene of Nappa and Vegeta on an alien planet, and two filler episodes out of 35 taking place on an alien planet, one of which is actually just a vision quest.

It starts with an alien invader, reveals the main character is an alien, and is structured around an impending alien invasion, and then reveals another character is, in fact, an alien. Thus a demon and God are retconned into being aliens as well. This is then followed by a Kid from a future trying to stop evil cyborgs from creating a dystopian future. One can argue DBZ is where the show definitely trades in its more mythical elements for sci-fi elements. I don't think that means DBZ is throwing away its wuxia influence but there's definitely more of a sci-fi bent than fantasy now.



As bad as it could get I honestly feel like the Buu saga was more of a return to form.

The rest? The same martial arts training stuff you would have gotten prior to this. The same types of battles and violence found in the last major story arc, only now the hero can give himself a red aura. The introduction of a very, very, very Eastern-inspired afterlife so in your face even a 12-year-old American kid could pick up on it.


Other than King Yemma, an American Kid would still pick up on fluffy cloud heaven and hell being down below.


Return to “Music”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests