Episode #0253 (27 March 2011)

[dbgtFO]

No your reasonings are good, Toriyama even said he had fun drawing the Gotenks vs. Majin Buu battle:

That's why it was fun drawing Majin Buu and Gotenks' fight. I thought up strange techniques in the spirit of a gag manga. (laughs)

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.p ... rview#link

Didn't he also say that with the Buu Saga his editors let him do things his, something he hadn't been able to do for a while. Explains the gag focused story

Yep, his editor Fuyuto Takeda was described as lenient compared to the other two.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, I don't doubt that Toriyama probably had a good time just messing around and doing what he wanted. That's why people always say that the Boo arc was going back to its roots. It was quite a contrast to the prominently sci-fi nature of the Cell arc.

Although I do think there was a kind of lack of effort on Toriyama's part. I think he had gone on longer than he wanted to, which is why the plot seems so incoherent and haphazard in comparison to the previous arcs. Of course, DB's big dumb fun, but, even for DB, the Boo arc probably had the hardest plot to get your head around.

[Majin Buu]

Although I do think there was a kind of lack of effort on Toriyama's part. I think he had gone on longer than he wanted to, which is why the plot seems so incoherent and haphazard in comparison to the previous arcs. Of course, DB's big dumb fun, but, even for DB, the Boo arc probably had the hardest plot to get your head around.

That's the thing. Did he want to end it at that point? Probably. But who's to say that he didn't put any effort into it? The "incoherent" and "haphazard" (which BTW I think is arguable, but that's for another topic) nature of it could very well just be staples of Toriyama's style (like you said, he went back to his roots with the Buu arc) rather than a symptom of not caring enough to put any effort in it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Although I do think there was a kind of lack of effort on Toriyama's part. I think he had gone on longer than he wanted to, which is why the plot seems so incoherent and haphazard in comparison to the previous arcs. Of course, DB's big dumb fun, but, even for DB, the Boo arc probably had the hardest plot to get your head around.

That's the thing. Did he want to end it at that point? Probably. But who's to say that he didn't put any effort into it? The "incoherent" and "haphazard" (which BTW I think is arguable, but that's for another topic) nature of it could very well just be staples of Toriyama's style (like you said, he went back to his roots with the Buu arc) rather than a symptom of not caring enough to put any effort in it.

To me, it felt like he'd gone past his limit, so to speak. His storytelling had already peaked at that point, and while it wasn't Oscar-winning, it was still coherent and not full of plotholes and the like. For example, the rushing ending felt like he just wanted to end there. Even the early DB arcs weren't as convoluted as the Boo arc. That's why I think Toriyama lacked effort in the Boo arc. At least, he didn't put as much effort as he did in the previous arcs. Again, that's just me. You may have a different opinion.

[Majin Buu]

Again, that's just me. You may have a different opinion.

Obviously I do . I just don't think it's a stone cold fact that Toriyama didn't care anymore at that point, even though everyone says that's the case, and especially since there's no statements or anything from him indicating that.

[MetaMoss]

The Boo arc is my personal favorite, and I think its complete randomness to be its greatest asset. As a mid-teenage boy, I seem to think in a very random fashion. Likewise, I... SQUIRREL! Nope, false alarm . Anycase, while the way of writing may seem stupid, I personally feel it has more passion in it then the previous arcs, especially the post-23rd Tenkaichi Budokai ones. Something about it makes me think Toriyama was in his element writing it. I personally would love to write stories that make people say, "What the hell just happened!?" with crazy, random plot twists. First you think you beat the bad guy, but no! He happened to be the stunt double of the real bad guy's friend's brother's mother's cousin's aunt's grandkid's father's coworker's mother-in-law's great-grandchild from the future who came back to have a Krispy Kreme. That's the stuff I would totally write for a living.

[Michsi]

Again, that's just me. You may have a different opinion.

Obviously I do . I just don't think it's a stone cold fact that Toriyama didn't care anymore at that point, even though everyone says that's the case, and especially since there's no statements or anything from him indicating that.

The artwork from the Buu Saga could be used as an example imo. I often compare it with artwork from, say, the saiyan saga. I'm not talking about the obvious difference in style, but by what I consider to be a difference in effort put in the drawings.
Buu Saga seemed so rushed in certain places and I think a lot of faces were off at time. Compared to the saiyan arc where I feel he devoted more time and care to his drawings.

Art wise it's my least favorite saga.

But I don't agree with folks saiying it shouldn't have been made. The Gotenks vs. Buu fight is one of my favorites.

[Petsu]

Really great podcast again.

I hope that more people will cite and reference their work more properly these days.

Anyway due to this podcast I think i can feel content as to knowing the reason why Yamucha always sucked in the tournament. . .guess he always got tails. . .Aiyaaaa.

[Herms]

When I had lunch with Sabat at the convention, yes he was indeed talking about the Shonen Jump event that you guys spoke of. That information about the supposed end at the Freeza arc came from a conversation he and Toriyama had with -each other-. I don't remember exactly if it was during a break or a dinner or something, not really sure, but I know it definitely wasn't heard second-hand.

Can't remember if we went over the exact quote on the podcast, but this is the intro to the Viz Jump launch Q&A session from Shonen Jump #3:

Kidz Questions for Akira Toriyama
Kids from New York's Communities in Schools organization managed to wrench the microphone from FUNimation Productions voice actor Chris Sabat at the SHONEN JUMP launch event at Chelsea Piers. In the short time they controlled the podium, the kids fired off a few probing questions for Dragon Ball Z and Sandland creator, Akira Toriyama. Let's listen in...

So Sabat was definitely right there as Toriyama was asked those questions; it's not a question of whether he heard it second-hand or not. The kids who asked the questions even "wrenched the microphone" from him, whatever that means (kinda sounds like he was the one who gave the microphone to whoever had a question). It strikes me as implausible that Sabat would both be there when Toriyama talked about when he was forced to continue the series, and then also later or earlier asked him about the same topic, at which point Toriyama gave a substantially different answer than what he told the crowd. I think it makes more sense to assume that the only time he heard Toriyama speak on the subject was the one we have a verified written record of, and that he simply misheard/misunderstood/misremembered Toriyama's answer. I guess you could argue that Toriyama didn't want the public at large to learn the real circumstances under which he was forced to continue the series, and so told them one thing and told Sabat the real story, but...why? If he had wanted to end it with Freeza, why would that have to be such a huge secret, but saying he was forced to continue around the Piccolo storyline would be OK? Or why would he be free to mention multiple times that he chose the name "DBZ" because he wanted to end things soon, but not be free to ever say he wanted Freeza to be end? Or for that matter, why would it be OK for him to casually mention in interviews that he didn't ultimately think Gohan was suited to be the main character, or that he really doesn't like Vegeta that much, but then talking about the Freeza ending stuff would somehow be too inflammatory for fans to hear?

There's no reason I can see why Toriyama wouldn't be free to mention in published interviews that at the time he planned the Freeza arc to be the ending, were that the case, and yet he never has said anything about that in interviews, despite mentioning all sorts of things about how he was originally going to have things go, the things his editors made him do, the pressures put on him to continue, etc. Why would he not mention it during these times but then happen to mention it Sabat? If it were a big secret for some reason, you'd think he would also be forbidden from mentioning it to someone like Sabat too. Maybe it just happened to slip his mind in all those interviews but when Sabat asked he happened to remember, but that seems pretty unlikely. Again, it seems to me that the most likely explanation is that when Sabat heard Toriyama say he was forced to continue DB during its third year (and we know he was around to hear this), he mistakenly thought "the third year" referred to the Freeza storyline.

Perhaps you misremembered what Sabat told you about the circumstances under which he heard Toriyama says this (maybe you were even the one to misremember/misunderstand Toriyama's answer as being about the Freeza arc, rather than Sabat). You said yourself that you can't remember Sabat's story exactly. And you only heard the story...what, 1-2 years ago? And you're also a fan heavily invested in the series who would presumably want to remember information like this as accurately as possible. Sabat meanwhile would have been recounting something that happened 8 years ago, so the chances of him misremembering are even greater. I'm not trying to pick on you or defame Sabat's character; it's simply a fact that human memory is very faulty. Even eyewitnesses in trials are notoriously unreliable. The bottom line is that we've got a written record that during the Viz SJ launch party Toriyama said X about when he was forced to continue the series, so if Sabat says that Toriyama instead (or in addition) said Y, we need more evidence that his own memory years after the fact.