Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

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Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:29 pm

Episode #0361 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version)
63:07; 96 kbps, mono; 43.5 MB

Episode #0361! VegettoEX and Gaffer Tape dissect the character of Bardock. Who did we think this character was, what has changed about him over the years, and can he even be considered one character anymore? The week's news and "Who's That Character?" wrap up the show!

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Enjoy! :D
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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:11 pm

You said we don't get a lead hero who doesn't win until 2013, but what about History of Trunks?

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by jpdbzrulz4sure » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:07 pm

Regarding this week's "Who's That Character", I know exactly who it is. 8)

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Chuquita » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:55 am

Thoughts on the various Bardocks:
-the original I do agree strikes me as a disconnected everyman who doesn't really care much about anything outside him until he gains the power to see the future and ends up desperately in over his head.
-EOB Bardock is very tsundere (or maybe kuudere) by comparison. He acts like he doesn't care, but he does and it's shown he does.
-It's harder to get a reading on DBMinus' Bardock. He's a smart and clever kinda guy who cares about his family which itself may have become the impetus for him to lose some of his colder edge. Maybe he didn't have a reason to care about others before he met Giné? ("Power of love"? *hoverboard*)

I don't really wanna see him get something like ssjg though. Not that they can't retcon the first ssjg from not looking kinda Vegeta-y in silhouette, but I'd rather that if anyone else had to get it, that it be Vegeta.

Also, I hope that DB science event has a stage show, or at least some promo animation *really wants to see lab assistant Gokû in action.* X3

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:40 am

I think you guys nailed the core of the controversy. Toriyama's small involvement in the TV special + good feedback + inclusion of a portion of it (the relevant part) in the manga + continuous praise throughout the years made people, myself included, simply accepted it as part of the story. This doesn't apply to any other movie or TV special either. And the fact that Minus is just a bunch of bullet points with no character (or even story) development doesn't help it as a valid alternative to the existing story.
Chuquita wrote:He acts like he doesn't care, but he does and it's shown he does.
I wouldn't necessarily call it an act. I believe that he actually doesn't care (initially), but the fact that those people healed and fed him and are being attacked by the very people who destroyed his planet and whole race makes him "help" them by destroying their attackers and not killing the Plantians. At least that's why prefer the OVA over the manga in this case, because he doesn't stay there and smile to the Plantians after he defeats Chilled.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:56 am

Did I catch myself saying the Bardock TV special aired in 1991? My bad. 1990!

1991 was when Toriyama first made comments about it in the second Anime Special book.
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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by TrunksTrevelyan0064 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:07 am

To get into the 'canon' discussion: remember that Battle of Gods introduced the whole 'multiverse' idea. Maybe the Bardock TV Special and DB Minus took place in separate universes?

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Makaioshin » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:54 am

I look forward to listening to the podcast when I get home. Based on the picture on the front page though I think there might have been another Bardock that was overlooked.
TrunksTrevelyan0064 wrote:To get into the 'canon' discussion: remember that Battle of Gods introduced the whole 'multiverse' idea. Maybe the Bardock TV Special and DB Minus took place in separate universes?
We don't really know anything about the other universes other than that they exist. The idea that they are just slightly different versions of the Dragon World we know is just something from the popular fanfic.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:04 pm

Makaioshin wrote:I look forward to listening to the podcast when I get home. Based on the picture on the front page though I think there might have been another Bardock that was overlooked.
Technically there are two:

- Super Saiyan 2 Bardock from Dragon Ball Heroes (though he does get a quick mention)
- Bardock from Dragon Ball Online

We honestly just don't personally know enough about the Online version of the character to really have an in-depth discussion on it. Also I forgot. Take your pick.
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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by TrunksTrevelyan0064 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:22 pm

Makaioshin wrote:
TrunksTrevelyan0064 wrote:To get into the 'canon' discussion: remember that Battle of Gods introduced the whole 'multiverse' idea. Maybe the Bardock TV Special and DB Minus took place in separate universes?
We don't really know anything about the other universes other than that they exist. The idea that they are just slightly different versions of the Dragon World we know is just something from the popular fanfic.
I realize that, but it's the only explanation I could come up with that would allow both Bardock stories to work at the same time :P

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:28 pm

TrunksTrevelyan0064 wrote:
Makaioshin wrote:
TrunksTrevelyan0064 wrote:To get into the 'canon' discussion: remember that Battle of Gods introduced the whole 'multiverse' idea. Maybe the Bardock TV Special and DB Minus took place in separate universes?
We don't really know anything about the other universes other than that they exist. The idea that they are just slightly different versions of the Dragon World we know is just something from the popular fanfic.
I realize that, but it's the only explanation I could come up with that would allow both Bardock stories to work at the same time :P
We do know that Herms has said that the Chozenshu imply that the 12 Universe concept doesn't work like that, and that all the stories with Goku and the gang take place in Universe 7 (which would require more alternate timelines than what Trunks created).

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Kakarot88 » Thu May 01, 2014 1:16 am

Heard the Podcast and just had to re-watch the original Bardock special...and I have come to the conclusion as to why I think Bardock is so, iconic: he is the antithesis and epitome of Goku! He is the father living vicariously through his son! With regard to his first iteration, he fails to achieve what his son does...
Here is what I mean:
  • Bardock tries hard and does NOT summon uncommon Strength.
    However, unlike Kuririn or Yamcha, Bardock does NOT completely fail either!
    Bardock "goes the distance" so to speak and pushes himself even further beyond
    • ...than most...he passes out whilst en route to warn his Saiyan brethren and does so at the expense of his own body: his ship is covered in blood and he limps the whole way eventually falling face first and passing out;
    whereas Goku tries hard and succeeds (...well except for Cell and Beerus...moving on!) ok let's say tries hard and succeeds the SECOND time around, specifically, Goku fails against Piccolo Daimio but trains intensely after pasisng out and becomes a formidable opponent!
    • ...well after using steroids excuse me Ultra Devine Water... point is Goku succeeds because he is given the second chance Bardock does not have.
    Here's a better example, Goku is broken after the Ginyu fight, gets healed (ignore Zenkai power that's not my point I'm talking story contextual ideals not in universe rationalizations) and comes back ready to go round 2 so to speak against the elements:
    • Namek and those on it!
    Conversely, Bardock fails against Dodoria and essentially goes "Screw it, I'm on my own, let's go for broke!" but unlike Goku he fails. Bardock is unique because of his effort; his failures only exemplify how much harder he tries and comes up short. Goku tries and succeeds, which begs the question was he holding back or too afraid to go all in at the first instance, whereas Bardock is all in all the time and this makes sense given his cultural upbringing wherebey he is judged by his strength alone which can be digitally recorded and thus placing him in a cast system.
All in all Burdock, to me, appears to be the Goku we want to see but only once and not really Goku: a hard ass that tries hard and fails.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by TKA » Fri May 02, 2014 11:47 am

Good installment.

OG Bardock is a damn good character. Being a guy raging against the machine, but is ultimately doomed to fail is a great character type to mess around with, especially when he's Goku's father. Recent stories all have main characters with super awesome fathers that are the best thing since sliced bread (Naruto has Minato, Ichigo has Isshin, Luffy had Dragon AND Garp etc), so I always thought it cool that Goku's father was some low-class trash warrior. It also helps Goku's character, since he ultimately didn't have super genes to fall back on: his progression was all him. Being born from a father with a power level less than Gulldo's and attaining Super Saiyan is infinitely more inspiring and awe-inducing than being the super gifted son of a super gifted warrior.

This is why I do not like Episode of Bardock and DB-. They turn Bardock into something he just isn't: something great. He isn't great, and was never meant to be great. Power-wise, if we accept the statement that Saiyan promotion lies in power level, and Bardock was still a low-class, it puts his power level somewhere under 4000, and that's pathetically weak compared to what we know is out there. Character-wise, why would he be a caring, compassionate Saiyan? There's no reason for it: he's out there destroying worlds and clearing out entire civilizations. The Bardock Special presented him this way, which is in keeping with the description of Saiyans from the series, but had the ingenious idea of tying his prompt to action to his comrades's murders, because even bad men have friends. Even when he does take up the fight, I see it more as "Frieza screwed me, so I'm gonna give him a piece of my mind," and not "I will put an end to his tyranny so we can all live in peace!"

... I'm babbling again. The only good Bardock is in the original TV Special. These later two are both, dare I say, awful? EOB's is because he's the ravings of a fangirl, and akin to something I'd expect to see on deviantart. DB-'s Bardock is awful because his character, what little of it there is, makes no sense. If this is Toriyama's take on Bardock, why give us so little? Is he expecting us to transpose the TV special's Bardock onto this Bardock and go from there? Are we supposed to ignore the TV Special? If so, why give us this little? I'd be interested in a 10-issue DB-, but a 1-issue comic is just awful in trying to make so many alterations to what we know of the DB world.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by shmike » Sat May 03, 2014 2:25 pm

I always subscribed to the multiverse theory of DB. Thanks to the many DB movies (and DBO, DBGT, etc) which could fit in and out of the main series, it's the only way to keep yourself sane.
Also, why can't there me multiple universes? I mean look at DC and Marvel.
One could even argue that DB- and EOB Bardock are the same guy.
Anyway the most controversial thing I see here is Goku being sent from Planet Vegeta at the age of 3. THAT is the biggest contradiction. Three year olds can talk. Goku is no longer an unruly baby who fell out of a basket and hit his head. Now he is a toddler who has some powers. Think of it this way, Gohan was only a year or so older at the beginning to DBZ.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Kaboom » Sat May 03, 2014 6:20 pm

To be honest, I think some people are exaggerating when it comes to Minus-Bardock, or getting the wrong impression of him.

The original TV Bardock was, as pointed out, portrayed as just another soldier. He was a low-class Saiyan, in a team with four other low-class Saiyans, and aside from gaining some fame for he and his team's successful exploits, his name really didn't go down in history or end up remembered.

However, the special did still portray Bardock himself as "special" in some ways. He had a power level of nearly 10,000, which was way stronger than any other low-class Saiyan should normally have and trumped even —for reference— Nappa the elite's power of 4,000 or so. Then he got the psychic powers. Then he was the only one of his crew to survive against Dodoria. Whether it was luck or skill, Bardock from the TV special really was "special" in at least a few ways.

Then Naho Ooishi made him even more "special" in Episode of Bardock, but I don't need to explain that to anyone.

However, the way I see it, Toriyama undid that in Minus. He scaled things back down in light of Episode of Bardock, and gave us an even "less special" Bardock than in the TV special. Minus-Bardock doesn't have psychic powers, he doesn't have people praising him for his extraordinary class-defying power (he likewise isn't shown charging through an army of Freeza's elites, or anything like that). He's just an average low-class Saiyan who simply notices Freeza's odd behavior and acts on a gut feeling.

Furthermore, in terms of changes to Bardock's personality in Minus, I think that's kind of being blown out of proportion too. By no means is Minus-Bardock suddenly a "nice guy." In the very first page of Minus, we see him smiling gleefully as he and his unnamed partner slaughter random aliens. He's still a murderous dirtbag who thrives on violence like pretty much every other Saiyan at the time.

The ONLY difference we see is that this "revised" Bardock has a soft spot for his wife and son(s). Even then, he's all tsundere about it, and blames it on Gine rubbing off on him. Heck, come to think of it, even Gine herself isn't necessarily painted as a "good person" in any way. She likewise only shows familial affection and concern for Bardock, Raditz, and li'l Kakarrot. But she's certainly not protesting Bardock's career choice, or anything.
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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Sat May 03, 2014 7:15 pm

Kaboom wrote:Then he got the psychic powers.
More like psychic curse. The 'power' did nothing for him, and was never meant to. The Kanassan only gave it to him as a form of torture so that he could see the inevitable demise of his race.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon May 05, 2014 1:59 am

With Bardock being revealed to be merely an average warrior, and never really respecting Freeza, and Gero being retconned in as the leader of the RRA... I'm starting to think that maybe those semi-literate youtubers were right about Toriyama writing the Funi dub...

Anyway, as Kaboom pointed out, Bardock was clearly depicted as special in the... special. I recall you complaining about the special giving him a battle power, saying it ruined something, but even without that, he was clearly depicted as a good deal stronger than average, and definitely not just a regular Joe Average saiyan/Freeza thug, as you seemed to think. This is particularly evident at the end, where he bulldozes his way through dozens of those regular Joe Average grunts that he supposedly is one of. It also shows up earlier, when he single-handedly wipes out an entire squad of elite fighters that had just wiped the floor with his saiyan comrades.

Will the next podcast have anything to do with all of these new Toriyama Q and As? I'm eager to hear that discussed.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon May 05, 2014 8:20 am

You're certainly not wrong about that. I did make the comparison, though, of the Bardock special walking a tightrope over the pitfalls of prequelitis, and I should have been clearer to point out that it didn't walk that tightrope perfectly. I think it does a very good job of it, but I do feel him mowing through mountains of Freeza's goons and being the only opposition against Freeza at the very end brings it in danger of falling off, and that is the part I have the hardest time swallowing. I feel it manages to squeak by, though, due to the fact that he is ultimately forgotten and ultimately accomplishes nothing in that charge. For me, it's barely enough to balance it out.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Luso Saiyan » Mon May 05, 2014 10:09 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:he was clearly depicted as a good deal stronger than average, and definitely not just a regular Joe Average saiyan/Freeza thug,
Saiyans (low-class or not) are by default potentially stronger than a "regular Joe" of Freeza's forces, but Bardock was never depicted as anything more than a low-class saiyan. In fact, that may very well be the only thing consistent between the TV special and Minus.

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Re: Episode #0361 (27 April 2014)

Post by Basaku » Mon May 05, 2014 1:04 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote: We do know that Herms has said that the Chozenshu imply that the 12 Universe concept doesn't work like that, and that all the stories with Goku and the gang take place in Universe 7 (which would require more alternate timelines than what Trunks created).
I wouldn't exactly trust Chozenshu on this considering it doesn't even seem to understand how alternate timelines are suppoused to work. Of course there's a question whether anyone does (AT included...) but yeah. IMO 12 universes thing was inserted into new movie to either a) have potentially tons of uber-powerful different Gods of Destruction to battle with for the team or b) have an easy way out of of plot inconsistiences, easy reboot/reset button and a place to dumb stuff they may not want to consider canon anymore (like possible both GT and DB Online)

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