Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

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VegettoEX
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Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:24 am

Episode #0386 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version)
42:36; 96 kbps, mono; 29.4 MB

Episode #0386! VegettoEX and Herms discuss the "Strength Checker", a forum thread dedicated to cataloging each and every manga statement relating to the strength or power of any given character. What purpose does such a reference serve, and what can we learn about our fandom from this?

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Enjoy!
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by SaiyaSith » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:59 am

YES!!! Thank you! :clap: :D

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by Ajay » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:28 pm

For anyone who just has no interest in strength debates, but does care about how translation works, I highly recommend you give this a listen. It's nice to hear about the finer points of translation. I would definitely enjoy an episode devoted to that sort of thing. "What's too far? How do you draw the line?" That kinda good stuff.

Great episode. Thanks.

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by SaiyaSith » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:31 pm

Just finished the cast and it's another great episode! The Kanzenshuu podcast + new DBS episodes make my week. :clap: Have a fun time at the NY premiere, Mike!

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:58 pm

I highly suggest giving this a listen for the details on translation, but also because I turned on Youtube's closed captioning for shits and giggles...and it was a glorious Kanzenshuu "fansub" ride.

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:46 am

You bring up a good point in regards to canon.
For example Majin Buu. His Pure/Kid form is unquestionably his strongest form in the anime, but the manga heavily implies otherwise. Given that the anime would be what's probably most known to the public and what subsequent games and merchandise would base its information on, we're left with conflicting accounts on what it should be. Not to mention Goku's nonsensical decision of wanting to fuse against Gotenks-Buu or Gohan-Buu, if his power is great enough to defeat an even stronger one.

There's also the more recent example of SSGSS, which in some promotional material is said to be stronger than Super Saiyan God, when the movie itself just says it's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, rather than a Super Saiyan with power surpassing Super Saiyan God. At least I'd expect it to be worded like the latter, if that's what Toriyama really meant.

I've also seen people who would be fine with the strength checker, until its translations contradict whatever belief they might have saying stuff like Herms did well, but this is where he went wrong and the official translations did it right or the anime has it differently and then referring to some lines that aren't present in the anime or pretty much, what Herms translated it as in the first place.
It can get pretty frustrating in a strength debate, I can tell you that!

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by kizuki » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:35 am

dbgtFO wrote:You bring up a good point in regards to canon.
For example Majin Buu. His Pure/Kid form is unquestionably his strongest form in the anime, but the manga heavily implies otherwise.!
I am ashamed that I never knew this after being a fan for over a decade. Is this implied in the English manga as well? Or is this one of the things that didn't get translated over, as was mentioned on this podcast with other instances?

This really makes me want to go back and re-read the entire series.

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:03 pm

kizuki wrote:I am ashamed that I never knew this after being a fan for over a decade. Is this implied in the English manga as well? Or is this one of the things that didn't get translated over, as was mentioned on this podcast with other instances?

This really makes me want to go back and re-read the entire series.
Long story short, SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are shown to be capable of killing Evil Boo, but SS3 Goku can't kill Evil Boo even with SS2 Vegeta's help, while he could have killed Pure Boo at full power, but he didn't get the chance because he was fooling around at first during their fight, and then had stamina issues because of SS3. The anime adds statements about Pure Boo being the strongest Boo, but none of them are in the manga.

As for why isn't SS3 Goku the strongest good guy, and Pure Boo the strongest bad guy, if they are the main protagonist & final villain? Because Toriyama was planning to have Goku remain dead, and Gohan & the boys as the main protagonists, so Gohan & Gotenks surpassed Goku. But after he changed his mind and made Goku the main protagonist again, he brought back Goku, got Gohan & Gotenks out of the picture, and used Vegetto as a plot-device to weaken Boo at Goku's level in order to have Goku vs Boo as the final fight.

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:15 pm

dbgtFO wrote:You bring up a good point in regards to canon.
For example Majin Buu. His Pure/Kid form is unquestionably his strongest form in the anime, but the manga heavily implies otherwise. Given that the anime would be what's probably most known to the public and what subsequent games and merchandise would base its information on, we're left with conflicting accounts on what it should be. Not to mention Goku's nonsensical decision of wanting to fuse against Gotenks-Buu or Gohan-Buu, if his power is great enough to defeat an even stronger one.
Actually, I don't think that Pure Buu being the strongest Buu is the case even in the anime. As you said, that would mean the story wouldn't make any sense*. But on top of that, there's not only all the dozens of statements from the manga that directly or indirectly place Pure Buu lower, but several fights which show him as being weaker. Some of these fights, such as Buutenks vs SS3 Goku, SS2 Goku vs Super Buu, and the "extended" SS2 Vegeta vs Pure Buu, are anime-only!

*This also applies if he's "just" stronger than Super Buu, as otherwise Mr. Buu wouldn't have been ripped out at all.

Anyway, this was an interesting episode. Especially on the subjects of the translation process, the construction of the SC, and Viz vs Simmons. Some thoughts:

*Re: stronger fighters losing against weaker fighters. I actually had a list of instances like that. It happens more often than you'd think.
*Re: "why talk about it at all?". Honestly, I never got this way of thinking. The series is about fighting. That's really all that matters. That's how every problem is solved (except Fat Buu, I guess), that's what all the characters strive to be the best at, that's what closes every arc. Why shouldn't fans want to know who's the strongest?

*Re: "tier list". My first thought when Herms brought up the other, strength-related, Non-Strength-Checker project was that Strength-Palooza thing he was planning a year or so ago. At the risk of sounding like a stereotype of the fans VegettoEX described just now, whatever happened to that? Just curious...
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:04 pm

Vegeta was still conscious after the Saiyan Saga while Gohan was completely knocked out, wasn't he? I'd put that match-up in Vegeta's favor.

Could argue Videl/Spopivich as another one, but I disgress.

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by kizuki » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:24 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
kizuki wrote:I am ashamed that I never knew this after being a fan for over a decade. Is this implied in the English manga as well? Or is this one of the things that didn't get translated over, as was mentioned on this podcast with other instances?

This really makes me want to go back and re-read the entire series.
Long story short, SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are shown to be capable of killing Evil Boo, but SS3 Goku can't kill Evil Boo even with SS2 Vegeta's help, while he could have killed Pure Boo at full power, but he didn't get the chance because he was fooling around at first during their fight, and then had stamina issues because of SS3. The anime adds statements about Pure Boo being the strongest Boo, but none of them are in the manga.

As for why isn't SS3 Goku the strongest good guy, and Pure Boo the strongest bad guy, if they are the main protagonist & final villain? Because Toriyama was planning to have Goku remain dead, and Gohan & the boys as the main protagonists, so Gohan & Gotenks surpassed Goku. But after he changed his mind and made Goku the main protagonist again, he brought back Goku, got Gohan & Gotenks out of the picture, and used Vegetto as a plot-device to weaken Boo at Goku's level in order to have Goku vs Boo as the final fight.
Interesting. I guess it was always just assumed by me that Pure Boo was the strongest, somehow -- but thinking about it, it couldn't possibly make sense since Pure Boo had done some Kaioshin absorbing and became stronger than his current form. And seeing matchups against Fat Boo, Super Boo, etc. .. I guess I wasn't paying much attention, heh. It was also the Boo Arc so .. yea'.

ANYWAY, I did some searching -- RandomGuy96 made an interesting statement on his thread (props for the thread) about Boo's power by stating it could be proportionate to his "head tentacle." Could be accurate, I guess, and very Toriyama to remember which Buu is strongest, lol.

All in all, great episode. I looked over the strength checker for a bit, incredible work.

Keep the great Podcasts coming!

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:51 am

kizuki wrote:ANYWAY, I did some searching -- RandomGuy96 made an interesting statement on his thread (props for the thread) about Boo's power by stating it could be proportionate to his "head tentacle." Could be accurate, I guess, and very Toriyama to remember which Buu is strongest, lol.
Yeah, I go by that too. I even recall bringing it up in regards to Daizenshuu EX' Transformation Guide, where they claimed his tentacle probably increased in length to mimic SS3 Gotenks' hair, but that not lining up with how it also increased, when he briefly assumed his South Kaioshin absorped form.
Good times :D

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Re: Episode #0386 (02 August 2015)

Post by Cadellin » Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:51 am

The idea of making the strength checker part of the site is an intriguing one. Interfacing it would be tricky; maybe two drop down menus based on character and arc. So a reader could ask for Vegeta's comments in the Cell games by selecting 'Vegeta' and 'Cell games'. I'm sure you folks have more than enough to keep you busy at the minute though, what with Super ongoing and Revival of F hitting the DVD stores soon.

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