Episode #0388 (20 September 2015)

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VegettoEX
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Episode #0388 (20 September 2015)

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:41 pm

Episode #0388 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version)
50:23; 96 kbps, mono; 34.8 MB

Episode #0388! VegettoEX and Herms detail the Chinese name origins for many Dragon Ball characters, along with how to best represent their names with our English language alphabet. Who is this "Jiaozi" character and why would it be somewhat ridiculous to write the dragon's name as "Shenron"...? Tune in for a crash course in language adaptations!

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Quick notes: I had Jake move his recording area at the last minute due to background noise, and then on top of that I had to use the Skype backup recording instead of his local audio track due to a computer crash mid-recording. Apologies in advance for that side of the audio. Did everything I could.
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Re: Episode #0388 (20 September 2015)

Post by MagicBox » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:17 am

This was incredibly insightful! I've really been looking forward to this episode. I've been trying to gain a better understanding of the series by keeping my very own "style guide" on my computer, filled with everyone's names and how to "properly" write them. Research the name puns, educate myself about Japanese, etc. The Chinese names have always confused me, so this is a huge help. It's a lot of information to take in, and I found myself re-playing pretty much every single explanation just to make sure I understood everything, but I'm very grateful you guys tried to cover something this complicated and set certain things straight.

I agree with what you both said; something like this is much better suited to a written guide. So I'm really looking forward to the next 4-5 years!

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Re: Episode #0388 (20 September 2015)

Post by Thouser » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:24 pm

Cool episode, guys. I'm glad there was finally an episode on this subject. Just a couple of things I'd like to point out:

"Peking" isn't actually the Wade-Giles romanization of Beijing. Pei-Ching is. Peking is the "postal romanization," a system of romanizing place names for shipping purposes developed in the early 20th century. The romanization isn't based on Mandarin, like Hanyu Pinyin or Wade-Giles are, but instead is derived from a different Chinese language called "Lower Yangtze Mandarin" or "Jianghuai Mandarin."

For example, even though the Wade-Giles romanization of Tianjin is T'ien-chin, older English sources use the "postal romanization," Tientsin.

Oolong is also not Wade-Giles. The Wade-Giles for "wulong" is "wu-lung." Oolong is just an Anglicized form from the Chinese pronunciation, not from any formal romanization style. This is similar to the Cantonese words commonly spelled in English as "dim sum" and "yum cha," which in Jyutping romanization are spelled dim sam and jam caa.

As for the apostrophes in Wade-Giles, they're used to differentiate aspirated sounds from unaspirated ones, kind of in a reverse way from the two little lines next to certain kana (ち versus ぢ).

For example pinyin "qi" and "ji" would be written in Wade-Gales as ch'i and chi. Pinyin tang and dang would be t'ang and tang in Wade-Giles, etc.

This is why we have English words borrowed from Wade-Giles like "Taoism" that are supposed to be pronounced with a d sound. If it was meant to be pronounced with a t sound in Wade-Giles, it would be spelled T'ao.

I'm looking forward to the full guide.

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Re: Episode #0388 (20 September 2015)

Post by Gozar » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:40 am

So I gave this episode a second listen through and a thought/question popped into my mind that I hope you guys might be able to field.

Why has the Wade-Giles spelling begun to fall more so into obscurity? Based on this episode, it seems like that spelling system fall more in-line with what the word actually sounds like. So why the need to re-adapt an Asian character system into English letters in a way that doesn't really fall in line with the way the word is pronounced. In other words, if "Chi" is pronounced "Ch-ee," why would English speaking people spell this word as "Qi" which is nothing like you'd pronounce it based on our own lettering?

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Re: Episode #0388 (20 September 2015)

Post by Thouser » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:54 am

Gozar wrote:So I gave this episode a second listen through and a thought/question popped into my mind that I hope you guys might be able to field.

Why has the Wade-Giles spelling begun to fall more so into obscurity? Based on this episode, it seems like that spelling system fall more in-line with what the word actually sounds like. So why the need to re-adapt an Asian character system into English letters in a way that doesn't really fall in line with the way the word is pronounced. In other words, if "Chi" is pronounced "Ch-ee," why would English speaking people spell this word as "Qi" which is nothing like you'd pronounce it based on our own lettering?
In the fifties, the People's Republic of China came up with their own romanization system, called Hanyu Pinyin. It isn't based on English pronunciation rules. After all, the point is to romanize (write using roman letters) the language, not anglicize it. And different languages pronounce the roman letters differently from each other anyway.

Compare Japan's native Kunrei-Shiki system of romanization to the Hepburn system usually used in English and you'll see a similar situation of "odd spellings."

Hanyu Pinyin started to replace Wade-Giles (and postal romanization) in English after the PRC replaced the Republic of China (Taiwan) as the representitive for "China" in the United Nations. That's the extremely basic version.

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Re: Episode #0388 (20 September 2015)

Post by Gozar » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:54 am

Very interesting. I guess that leads to one more question. Does the Roman alphabet have specified sounds dating back however far that would make a Chinese use of them inherently wrong in a fashion similar to taking phrases such as Cell from English and pronouncing it as "Se-ru?"

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