Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

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Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:14 pm

Episode #0392 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version)
100:13; 96 kbps, mono; 69.0 MB

Episode #0392! VegettoEX and Kirbopher trek through a sea of Dragon Ball music composers in an attempt to answer the big question: what defines Dragon Ball music? Is it the instrumentation or the raw compositions? What aspects can be found in each different musical score? Join us for an in-depth look!

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Enjoy! I ended up listening to the show three times through while I was selecting tracks and editing them into the mix, and my takeaway is that -- despite having a 90ish minute topic -- we didn't really go all that in-depth about any of the composers' styles and traits. There's so much more we can do, and I really want to. Think of this almost like a primer for future conversations! We'd love to get your feedback and help us to guide those future conversations.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by Geekdom101 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:29 am

REALLY happy to hear my buddy and partner Blackenfist get mentioned. He loves you folks a lot and this means a lot to him. I was really happy for him.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by blackenfist » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:34 am

I was in shock when I saw my video as a reference to a Kanzenshuu podcast. Been listening to the podcast for a while now so it just warms my heart. Thanks for the reference I really appreciate it.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by MajinMan » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:56 am

From now on Nathan Johnson shall be know as "blah-de-blah." Because nobody realizes that he was a thing. Same goes for his music.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by kenisu3000 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:18 am

I can totally agree with Kirbopher about the Sumitomo cue that was used for Pure Boo's final moments. I haven't watched Final Chapters anywhere past what I've documented, so at first I didn't know what piece that would have been, but I immediately recognized it when the sample started up. It was first used when Videl says goodbye to Gohan as she pulls out from the Spopovitch/Yamu pursuit (mentioning as he flies on ahead that she wants to date him), and I've always thought it was uncharacteristically brilliant and tearjerking.

And learning that Tokunaga's Genkidama cue from GT (I refer to it as "Off To A New World") uses the same theme as the GT title card... holy crap, you're right! How did I never catch that? Thanks for pointing that out! I'm a disgrace to my reputation.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by Deathbringer » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:58 pm

Excellent podcast, this was the first time I've listened to an episode of this podcast from start to finish (I've only heard a few of them). For me there is no contest, the Kikuchi score on the original DB/DBZ anime is the musical definition of the whole series, not to say that other composers haven't done a good job of their own take on the series.

One thing I noticed was when you guys talked about the opening to Dragon Ball Super not being used in the actual show, you made it out like it wasn't used at all but the music for the episode title card and the commercial break music were both inserts of Chozetsu Dynamic.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by AlexFili » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:35 pm

Dragon Ball has a rich musical legacy, particularly for me in the videogames where it has a rock-techno feel. There are certain songs from the series that are just so catchy and assembled well. Hearing music triggers all these memories in a way that nothing else can, which is why it's such a big deal and a massive part of DBZ's heart and soul!

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by medama_oyaji » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:16 pm

Yeah, as an example of how context for how you experienced the series influences what defines Dragon Ball music, I was totally with you Mike about Kikuchi being the truest essence of DB music. As soon as I hear his score, it grabs me by my bones. However I did not play any DBZ video games growing up, and still have hardly played any (the occasional fighting game at a friend's house, a handful of times). So when you were talking about Yamamoto and how he also captures the true spirit of DB music, I was like "Ok, that's interesting" and looking forward to hearing a clip. However, when the clip was played my thoughts were basically "HUH? What is this??" It does not sound like Dragon Ball to me at all! And that must be because I don't have the same context as you.

On the other side of the coin, I'd say the other music that I associate most with Dragon Ball probably is that early English dub music. However, instead of that warm, happy feeling I get from Kikuchi, I'm transported to the aggravation and nerd rage I felt at the time over the dub :lol:

These days, I feel pretty neutral about the English dub, and am able to even look back at the "Rock the Dragon" version with some fondness. But music has an interesting primal power where it can grab you and transport you back to either warm fuzzy feelings, or angry agitation!

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:50 pm

To me when I think of Dragon Ball music the first thing that comes to mind are the xylophones, horns, rattles, and 80s guitar strings that I fondly remember from Dragon Ball Tenkaichi Budokai and Red Ribbon arcs and DBZ Saiyan arc. GT music is forgettable to me, but the recap music is what stuck in my head for so long.

Don't have much to say about FUNimation dub soundtracks cause I wasn't a fan back then except for the soundtracks used for the GBA Legacy of Goku games with Super Saiyan Vegeta and whatever soundtrack they used for Movie 12 stage in Buu's Fury.

But I tell you... two major things made me hate the dub music and certainly weren't the best kind of first exposure: DBZ Moive 8 with the random band songs and the thing GT used that thought it was music. Those two examples are what made me look upon the dub in disgust thinking in addition to all the stupid dialogue they used you also have the horrible music to go with. Suffice to say, I was wrong as I later found out the Faulcener soundtrack was fantastic, but still not what I consider the soundtrack of Dragon Ball.

For Yamamoto's score, I still remember the music of Budokai 2 and 3 and I still consider them the best of Dragon Ball game music, especially with great opening themes.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by TKA » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:44 pm

Good discussion about a topic I really have no interest in, but you guys managed to keep my attention for 100 minutes.

I don't usually notice background music unless I find it particularly awful, or particularly good. I listened to the Faulconer soundtrack recently and most of it is just noise that I simply ignored when watching, but the gems are fantastic. Similarly, I find most of the original soundtrack pretty bland and forgettable, and, again, only a few gems stuck out to me.

All that said, I suppose Faulconer's score is the one I like the most. It doesn't define Dragonball for me (because, again, I barely care about the music), but it enhances the experience of watching in a way that no other soundtrack quite does.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by Dogasu » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:46 am

I love reading and listening to people talk about the background music to my favorite shows and so this episode was right up my alley. I'm also insanely jealous of you guys for being fans of a franchise that you can buy on DVD with whatever soundtrack you want (cries at the state of the Pocket Monsters dub in 2015)

One thing that would have been interesting to hear you guys' thoughts on, though, was how the show uses silence to make certain statements. You two sorta-kinda touched upon it when talking about the dub and how it's just wall-to-wall music but I would have loved to hear you guys talk about how the decision to not use music in certain scenes contributes to the sound of the show as a whole. The first time I watched the Japanese version I instantly noticed how the show would sometimes have entire segments without any background music playing and that, to me at least, is a big part of the show's atmosphere.

And to steal a bit from Chris Psaros' DBZ Uncensored:
The moment Gohan gets his neck broken by Rikuum's kick is SO much more dramatic in the Japanese version, and once again, it's all because of the sound direction, or in this case, the lack thereof. What happens is that Gohan comes in to strike, and after he screams out in anger, everything goes absolutely silent. Rikuum jumps up and kicks Gohan, who falls backwards, hitting the ground, and you hear NOTHING during the whole exchange. No music, no sound effects, nothing, just utter and complete silence. The next sound you hear is Rikuum landing, then the sound of the wind blowing gradually returns. The scene is very eerie and effective, and you just sit there holding your breath with your mouth hanging open the whole time. In contrast of course, is the loud, overblown FUNimation version which is full of noises, music, voices and everything else.
I know talking about non-music in a podcast episode devoted exclusively to music might seem a bit weird but I think it would have been a fascinating discussion nonetheless. Not that it wasn't already a stellar episode already.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by kenisu3000 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:34 pm

Dogasu wrote:And to steal a bit from Chris Psaros' DBZ Uncensored:
The moment Gohan gets his neck broken by Rikuum's kick is SO much more dramatic in the Japanese version, and once again, it's all because of the sound direction, or in this case, the lack thereof. What happens is that Gohan comes in to strike, and after he screams out in anger, everything goes absolutely silent. Rikuum jumps up and kicks Gohan, who falls backwards, hitting the ground, and you hear NOTHING during the whole exchange. No music, no sound effects, nothing, just utter and complete silence. The next sound you hear is Rikuum landing, then the sound of the wind blowing gradually returns. The scene is very eerie and effective, and you just sit there holding your breath with your mouth hanging open the whole time. In contrast of course, is the loud, overblown FUNimation version which is full of noises, music, voices and everything else.
Haha, I remember reading about that scene on you and Psaros's sites way back when, before I had even watched that part of the series. I didn't have access to the Japanese version at the time, so I actually resorted to buying the Pioneer VHS with that episode and trying to imagine it without sound. When I finally got that portion of the series in Japanese I believe that was the first scene I spot-checked. To this day, it remains my favorite use of silence in the entire series (and one of my favorite moments overall), and so much of that has to do with the two of you selling it for me.

My second-favorite use of silence (or at least, lack of music) in DBZ - and I don't think I've ever seen it get mentioned here - has to be the moment just after Cell has achieved his Perfect Form, and he stands there glowing while all the Z Warriors just gape at him, and the only thing you hear is the power hum coming from Cell's glow.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by OmegaRockman » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:00 am

I wanted to post this days ago, but I forgot. In regards to Tokunaga's GT score, while I rather like it, I don't think it's quite Dragon Ball. Honestly, Sumitomo's Kai score sounds more Dragon Ball to me, save for the terrible production values, placement, and disco track. With that said, I do think the only legitimately great score Sumitomo ever did for DB was Battle of Gods' (BoG kinda had a Yamamoto Kai feel to me, minus the stench of plagiarism, of course; F, on the other hand, was inoffensive, but forgettable) and I'd still rather have more recycled Kikuchi in Boo Kai than Sumitomo (though I have to agree with Kirbopher that he did a fantastic job on Chibi Boo's defeat). Then again, I'm one of the dummies who actually prefers Kikuchi Kai to Yamamoto Kai; yes, Yamamoto did a wonderful job of reappropriating other peoples' music to make it sound like Dragon Ball and yes, the Kikuchi Kai score is limited and not as well-placed as in Z, but I love Kikuchi's music so much that hearing it in Kai just feels right. Going back to Tokunaga (yeah, kinda went off track... sorry), his score sounds more like an SNES JRPG score to me than a DB score to me, like something straight out of the Squaresoft days. I dunno, I must be weird.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by Captain-Sora » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:53 am

Not to defend the dub score itself, but I wouldn't say it's cheap composing to capitalize on particular motifs and musical ideas by making a good deal of renditions of them. Part of what makes a fantastic score is taking advantage of all those moments where one can arrange a particular theme and utilize them when it's appropriate. The more it is done, the more thematic depth there is to the body of work. The real problem is whether all those variants actually have a semblance of variety and experimentation to them. Leitmotifs can be pretty multifaceted, having arrangements for different moods or even being presented in an incomplete or subtle form to suggest a hint of things to come in a story. There's a lot of ways they can be played with, and it adds a lot of complexity to a score when it's done so well. It's what makes John Williams a flat out god among film composers.

For Kikuchi's score, it's less to do with having restraint, and more to do with how the production and placement of his music was handled. So much of the show's material is just comprised of pieces taken from the movies, so there's not that many reoccurring musical ideas to actually establish for various characters and concepts solely within the series itself. A lot of it is just reused material originally composed for other villains, main characters, and major plot elements from the films. Those are their themes. As a result, almost every character or idea seemingly has less reoccurring musical identities to them, barring the motifs specifically set up for the show very early on. However, when one inspects his handiwork for those films and sees all of those cues put together in the proper context, it's easier to notice just how much he masterfully sticks to these various motifs and constantly rearranges them pretty well throughout each score. For example, the bulk of Tree of Might is mainly just comprised of variations of the main/tree theme, Tullece's theme, and some other minor reoccurring material. There's more leitmotifs than there are of any non-thematic pieces.

All in all, composing a good deal of motifs and implementing them a lot isn't bad in itself. It just needs to be done well and not come off as painfully repetitive, lacking much differentiation between renditions and such.
Last edited by Captain-Sora on Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by Dogasu » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:33 am

I think the criticism people have against the dub's Cell theme, at least, is how it's literally just the same six notes repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It sounds like the backing track to a rap song and while some people may like that I think a lot of us just don't feel like that fits the character.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by Captain-Sora » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:45 am

Which is a valid criticism to note. It's just that it goes back to what I said about it being more of an issue of not really developing a musical idea all that well, causing the repetition to be more glaring. It's not so much about using a motif a lot, but how it's not really rearranged and and played with as creatively as it could have been. The only noteworthy thing about Cell's material is how his music transitioned from grungy musical ideas to his perfect form theme, which doesn't evolve or vary much after that from what I remember. The Buu theme serves as a better example of how to actually expand on a character's motif. The way it grew and altered complemented the narrative, and it didn't come off as repetitive due to its various arrangements being unique in their own way.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:08 am

Captain-Sora wrote: For Kikuchi's score, it's less to do with having restraint, and more to do with how the production and placement of his music was handled. So much of the show's material is just comprised of pieces taken from the movies, so there's not that many reoccurring musical ideas to actually establish for various characters and concepts solely within the series itself. A lot of it is just reused material originally composed for other villains, main characters, and major plot elements from the films. Those are their themes. As a result, almost every character or idea seemingly has less reoccurring musical identities to them, barring the motifs specifically set up for the show very early on. However, when one inspects his handiwork for those films and sees all of those cues put together in the proper context, it's easier to notice just how much he masterfully sticks to these various motifs and constantly rearranges them pretty well throughout each score. For example, the bulk of Tree of Might is mainly just comprised of variations of the main/tree theme, Tullece's theme, and some other minor reoccurring material. There's more leitmotifs than there are of any non-thematic pieces.
I didn't notice that Kikuchi had leitmotifs for the movie villains until just a year or two ago, even though I've been watching the original Japanese version for years. The only leitmotifs of his I had picked up on prior to that was Goku's, Piccolo's, and Vegeta's since the leitmotifs are only apparent in TV series 1, early Z, and the movies due to how his music was used. However, I think there were some attempts to give at least the Z villains in the series proper musical identities using the movie music. One of the Movie 2 tracks typically played for Freeza, one of the Movie 6 tracks repeatedly showed up for Cell, and one of the Movie 11 tracks regularly played for Majin Buu. Though it would have been great to see Kikuchi create original compositions specifically for those characters.

I think Mike and Meri summed up the Kikuchi and Falconer scores perfectly. Kikuchi's score does have an old feel to it, but it's timeless. It still holds up as good music. Falconer's on the other hand sounds much more dated and doesn't hold up well because it was in essence an imitation of a score that sounded like everything else you were hearing in most 90s action cartoons- a type of music that, in my opinion, wasn't particularly good to begin with. The Shuki Levi music was described by Kirbopher as "noise". I get the sense that a lot of the music in American action cartoons of that era (with the exception of Batman the Animated Series) wasn't made to be good music that sticks with you so much as just be background noise. Yes, you had your memorable opening themes, but I'm willing to bet that most of the people that grew up watching those shows wouldn't be able to recall many specific tracks from the actual episodic BGM from memory. I watched quite a bit of the dub as it was coming out (virtually in its entirety), but I can only count on one hand the number of specific Falconer and Shuki Levi tracks I can recall from memory; with the rest of their scores just blending into general sounds in my mind.

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Re: Episode #0392 (06 December 2015)

Post by SaiyaSith » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:14 am

Great cast! I hope you guys make one soon about all of the new reveals and Toriyama's quote about the quality of DBS.(Once you confirm his quote)

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