Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

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Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:58 pm

Episode #0393 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (Kanzenshuu YouTube version) (Kirblog YouTube Version)
67:17; 96 kbps, mono; 46.4 MB

Episode #0393! VegettoEX, Kirbopher, and MasakoX give a high-level review of the Resurrection 'F' retread in the Dragon Ball Super TV series. What were some of the main differences we expected, and how did it play out in the end? The 30th anniversary "Super History Book" is taking up all our time right now, so order yourselves a copy and check out some of our translations!

REFERENCED SITES:
So our dirty secret is that when Chris does longer "Kirblog" episodes (which... somehow always end up being the ones with me...?), to help out a bit I edit the audio and export his video for him. It's been long enough since our last regular episode that, rather than tossing it in the feed as a "SPECIAL" or "BONUS" or something, I decided to just number it, record an opening and ending, and toss it out like a regular episode :P.

Still planning on hitting up that 2015 news reflections/predictions episode...!
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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:54 pm

Regarding the number of out-sourced animators, on the first three series they mostly sub-contracted entire episodes to sub-contracting studios, like Seigasha. Now entire episodes are using multiple studios due to a lack of time or man-power. The industry has definitely changed since the 1990s, although we were already beginning to see some mixing in those first three series.

I don't think showing Freeza's training in detail would have been a good idea. If we had seen it I think it would have made the ending of the arc make less since. Freeza learns nothing from his training, so showing it would have amounted to nothing narratively.

The thing with Gohan, I think, is something that Chioka and the writers have come up with. It doesn't quite seem like something Toriyama would do. I think we'll see the storyline ultimately go nowhere, because Gohan has nothing to accomplish. I also don't think he was treated poorly in the arc at hand, either. He was clearly portrayed as the strongest good guy on Earth, especially in the movie. Training sure as heck didn't help Piccolo or Tenshinhan.

EDIT: Kirb referred to One Piece Episode #726. Shida Naotoshi did the animation for the transformation while Tomita Yoshikazu, Takara Isamu and Sugie Toshiharu did action animation. Shida did the one cool fight from the 2013 film and the cool part from the crossover in One Piece Episode #590. Shida has a storied history with the franchise but definitely became the top-level action animator he is today thanks to his work on PreCure.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Ajay » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:18 pm

I still vehemently disagree with the whole "Super's just as bad as Z was back in the day". During the Battle of Gods arc, I was right there with you, and many times reminded people of the inconsistencies of weekly animation. But as we've made our way through this Golden Freeza arc, there have been lows that are so unbelievably low, and highs so few and far between, that I simply cannot stand by that statement anymore. It's just not the case. Even for a weekly anime, we really are far below the norm these days.

I'm so close to catching up with One Piece now, and there's just so little in there (I can't speak for the filler arcs) that's even remotely close to what Super is spewing out at times. The inconsistencies in that show remind me of Z. I feel like the staff comments, and now Toriyama's own words speak volumes about where Super stands compared to the norm. You said it yourself, the series is a rush job.

Of course, I fully understand the series exists to sell merchandise. But surely that's the case for just about every anime of this kind? Is that really a justifiable excuse?

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:28 pm

Ajay wrote:I still vehemently disagree with the whole "Super's just as bad as Z was back in the day". During the Battle of Gods arc, I was right there with you, and many times reminded people of the inconsistencies of weekly animation. But as we've made our way through this Golden Freeza arc, there have been lows that are so unbelievably low, and highs so few and far between, that I simply cannot stand by that statement anymore. It's just not the case. Even for a weekly anime, we really are far below the norm these days.
Maybe it's because I'm only watching the episodes once (MAYBE twice), and I continue to let one or two pile up due to other life demands, but I just don't harp on these lows like everyone else in the social media echo chamber seems to. There was one in particular (was it Freeza running away?) that it seemed like EEEEEEEVERYONE was going on and on about, but when I saw it in context, it flew by and I just. didn't. care.
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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Ajay » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:56 pm

Despite some of it making me laugh, I try not to pay too much attention to the social media stuff -- or try not to take it too seriously, at least. It's certainly not influencing my view of the show to any real degree.

I suppose it is down to how much you let it get to you. I've only been watching the episodes once or twice for the latest arc, and I do agree that there are many instances that are easy to simply sigh at, and just move on with. It's when I encounter multiple poor episodes in a row like 23, 24 (especially), and the second half of 25, that I start to really find myself upset.

I just can't find a way to excuse it. If episode 24 were sandwiched between two solid looking episodes, then I'd probably be much more forgiving. But for the climax of an arc to be so poorly handled, I just find totally unacceptable. Those are supposed to be the episodes where your longrunning shows pull out the quality, and really deliver. Were there any poor moments in Z's climactic events that weren't sandwiched between solid work? I ask that sincerely. I'd love to check out those moments for myself again. I just can't recall any.

You certainly made a good point in the cast about how naturally (and something unreasonably) fans expect more. I found myself flicking through the 30th Anniversary book, thinking about how a series with so much history could be treated so poorly. Maybe that's my issue, I don't know.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by MozillaVulpix » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:12 am

This was really enjoyable. I've seen so many "The newest arc is the worst arc in DB history" opinions all around social media. It's really refreshing to have people NOT acting like it's the most terrible thing that ever happened to the franchise. And, I'm not gonna lie, if even Kanzenshuu staff would start acting vitriolic, I don't know what I would have done.

In terms of Gohan, his expanded role in Super feels like a response to how people reacted to his treatment in Resurrection 'F'. People didn't like how he got weaker for seemingly no reason, so Super decided to use it as a jumping point for some more character development. It was actually pretty refreshing. Everything since 1995 tried to make the audience forget about him, but Super, of all things, is the material that's trying to bring him back in the spotlight. Even if he's not that strong by comparison, and probably never will be.

The animation really wasn't that bad in 25 and 26. At least, in my opinion. The Goku/Golden Freeza fight just had so little substance to it that it got boring, although that criticism can also apply to the movie.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Michie » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:13 am

You certainly made a good point in the cast about how naturally (and something unreasonably) fans expect more. I found myself flicking through the 30th Anniversary book, thinking about how a series with so much history could be treated so poorly. Maybe that's my issue, I don't know.
You are not the only one who feels that way. When even the most generic harem anime has better animation than a iconic series you know there is something wrong.
If you look at the Summer season of 2015: http://myanimelist.net/anime/season/2015/summer
who would have guessed that the anime with the worst animation (not counting shorts) would have been Dragon Ball Super?

Freeza and Goku looking different every frame really takes you out of the experience.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by SaiyaSith » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:55 am

It's so good to finally hear you guys talk about DBS. Wow this was a good one. :clap:

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:50 pm

Michie wrote:
You certainly made a good point in the cast about how naturally (and something unreasonably) fans expect more. I found myself flicking through the 30th Anniversary book, thinking about how a series with so much history could be treated so poorly. Maybe that's my issue, I don't know.
You are not the only one who feels that way. When even the most generic harem anime has better animation than a iconic series you know there is something wrong.
If you look at the Summer season of 2015: http://myanimelist.net/anime/season/2015/summer
who would have guessed that the anime with the worst animation (not counting shorts) would have been Dragon Ball Super?

Freeza and Goku looking different every frame really takes you out of the experience.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with a 'generic harem anime' having better animation than Dragon Ball, especially in an industry when many projects are merely labors of love. You can't buy love in an industry with no money.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Blade » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:14 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Michie wrote:
You certainly made a good point in the cast about how naturally (and something unreasonably) fans expect more. I found myself flicking through the 30th Anniversary book, thinking about how a series with so much history could be treated so poorly. Maybe that's my issue, I don't know.
You are not the only one who feels that way. When even the most generic harem anime has better animation than a iconic series you know there is something wrong.
If you look at the Summer season of 2015: http://myanimelist.net/anime/season/2015/summer
who would have guessed that the anime with the worst animation (not counting shorts) would have been Dragon Ball Super?

Freeza and Goku looking different every frame really takes you out of the experience.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with a 'generic harem anime' having better animation than Dragon Ball, especially in an industry when many projects are merely labors of love. You can't buy love in an industry with no money.
For me the sore point in that respect is that Dragonball makes a hell of a lot more money on merchandise sales than any 'generic harem anime'. It's putting more money into the industry than most other current productions, and I think that justifies a little more love.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:59 pm

Blade wrote: For me the sore point in that respect is that Dragonball makes a hell of a lot more money on merchandise sales than any 'generic harem anime'. It's putting more money into the industry than most other current productions, and I think that justifies a little more love.
This isn't something that can be forced. Love is not something we feel obligated to hold. Works centered on 'harems' are all about the cute girls, animators love animating cute girls, so their work naturally looks better. Money does not mean quality, the ingenuity and ambition of the workers do.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Blade » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Blade wrote: For me the sore point in that respect is that Dragonball makes a hell of a lot more money on merchandise sales than any 'generic harem anime'. It's putting more money into the industry than most other current productions, and I think that justifies a little more love.
This isn't something that can be forced. Love is not something we feel obligated to hold. Works centered on 'harems' are all about the cute girls, animators love animating cute girls, so their work naturally looks better. Money does not mean quality, the ingenuity and ambition of the workers do.
Whilst Dragonball is seldom regarded as high art, it's also a pretty sweeping generalisation to say that drawing small girls invariably attracts more care and love from the talent. Tell that to the animators who grew up watching Super Saiyans, Pocket Monsters and Gundams - there's so much affection for the big franches - and with Dragonball Super it's purely a production environment issue: too many hands, too little focus, scatter-brained direction and too little time - but you know this. One Punch Man is a real work of art not purely because of animator love for the subject matter, but love for the production environment.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by ParkerAL » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:07 pm

Expecting jaw-dropping gorgeous animation from a mass-marketed Shonen show like Dragon Ball Super is unrealistic. That much I agree with. But even if animated Dragon Ball works in the past had more than their share of problems, I still feel Dragon Ball Super is well behind the pack these days. Recently, I've been slowly riding a nostalgia trip watching Pokémon XY. When it comes to being a commercialized, product-driven anime, you don't get much more blatant than Pokémon. And yet, I still think it's animation and art direction are far more consistent than what we get in Dragon Ball Super. I'd even say it has better fight choreography on average. How weird is that?

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Chuquita » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:44 pm

I just read Shingo Fujii is leaving Precure.
This guy: https://sakuga.yshi.org/wiki/show?title=shingo_fujii
I really enjoyed his animation work; would be very happy to have him on Super, but my guess is he's either going to work on the upcoming One Piece movie or he's leaving Toei altogether.

Re: the episode
I really enjoy these episodes with multiple guests. They're a lot of fun. Also that brief TFS!Gokû bit near the end was entertaining. X3

Re: F arc
The lead up to the F arc (episodes 15-18) were really enjoyable for me; Gokû and Vegeta as classmates and roommates is one of my favorite things about Super. :3
The F arc itself...it was ok, but it didn't differentiate itself enough from the movie for me. I also would've liked to see how they came upon blueper saiyan; even if it was just a flashback like how you guys mentioned Vegeta's first ssj1 being a flashback.
Also the way they messed up the hand-holding teleport had me sad/upset that entire weekend it aired (ep 23 I think) the only good(?) thing that came out of it was Gokû silently flipping out in response along with Beerus and Whis' reaction-faces to Gokû's response.
Anything good about the F arc compared to the movie imo?.....I liked that they didn't resort to CGI models in Super; those were really jarring in the F movie. I also liked the somewhat-dark "let's show everyone else right as the Earth is exploding" bit with 18 realizing what's happening but only too late to do anything. Ginyu I liked. The brief "Freeza sees Trunks and Goten" bit was something I'd hoped for, but ultimately felt not as satisfying as I thought it would.


Re: Monaka
Is it really Mo-naka? I'd been pronouncing it "mona-ka" the whole time. ^^;


Re: animation
I would like to have hope that we'll get some good animation at some point (at the level of episode 16 at least) but that upcoming One Piece movie has my current hopes low for Super getting anyone helpful + time for that or those person(s) to be helpful.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:56 pm

On my phone, so I will try to be taut. One Punch Man's character design has outright said the show was so good because the animators working on it liked it so much. Having time certainly helps but that does not mean animators that are good will join a project just because. Love is not an obligation.
ParkerAL wrote:Expecting jaw-dropping gorgeous animation from a mass-marketed Shonen show like Dragon Ball Super is unrealistic. That much I agree with. But even if animated Dragon Ball works in the past had more than their share of problems, I still feel Dragon Ball Super is well behind the pack these days. Recently, I've been slowly riding a nostalgia trip watching Pokémon XY. When it comes to being a commercialized, product-driven anime, you don't get much more blatant than Pokémon. And yet, I still think it's animation and art direction are far more consistent than what we get in Dragon Ball Super. I'd even say it has better fight choreography on average. How weird is that?
Pokemon has for a long time had a great schedule. Key animation drawings are usually worked on or finished five months before they air. Since XY the number of animators and supetvisors has increased, too. The series is also now allowed twenty percent more drawings per episode.

It also helps that Iwane Masa'aki loves the series so much. He solos five to ten episodes a year and does fight scenes and BANK animation for other sakkan. Asada Yuuji also works exclusively with with Iwane as his storyboard artist and director.

XY has also added Oohashi Aito for fight scenes lately. His fights have been really great, too. I love his new BANK for Pikachuu's Thunderbolt.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Michie » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:03 am

JulieYBM wrote:
I see absolutely nothing wrong with a 'generic harem anime' having better animation than Dragon Ball, especially in an industry when many projects are merely labors of love. You can't buy love in an industry with no money.

I thought the people working on Super also really loved the series. For some reason I feel sorry for them. Same goes for Sumitomo.
He gets lot's of hate (especially here) even though he has to deal with the hand they gave him.
In hindsight, Toei really shouldn't have rushed super. Right now Super has become a joke, no anime watcher who watches other series takes Super serieus anymore. It's going to take a lot of effort to win those people back.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Basaku » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:09 pm

Same excuse as always . "Kids show/ad for merchandise show". As if 99% of movies, series and animation in the world wasn't made to earn money. Not to mention that it's discrediting to those creators of other 'kids shows' who put in effort. Neither it is really smart long-term to phone in crappy quality, it won't be remembered very fondly when the kids grow up so no mass reintroducing of the new generation and exploiting nostalgia effect.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:01 pm

Michie wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:
I see absolutely nothing wrong with a 'generic harem anime' having better animation than Dragon Ball, especially in an industry when many projects are merely labors of love. You can't buy love in an industry with no money.

I thought the people working on Super also really loved the series. For some reason I feel sorry for them. Same goes for Sumitomo.
He gets lot's of hate (especially here) even though he has to deal with the hand they gave him.
In hindsight, Toei really shouldn't have rushed super. Right now Super has become a joke, no anime watcher who watches other series takes Super serieus anymore. It's going to take a lot of effort to win those people back.
I am sure many do. But being talented is also necessary. I am sure Tate and Iseki surely love the franchise.

There are a lot factors at play. Toei probably could have pushed for more lead in time, but Shueisha and the others could have remained concious of their condition, too.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by ParkerAL » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:34 pm

Not to go off topic, but I appreciate the insight on Pokémon's production schedule, JulieYBM. Very interesting.

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Re: Episode #0393 (24 January 2016)

Post by Dogasu » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:43 am

It's also important to remember that Pocket Monsters XY&Z has a much higher budget than Super, is airing in prime time as opposed to Sunday mornings, and isn't being animated by a production studio that's as stretched thin as Toei is.

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