Episode #0411 (04 September 2016)

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MozillaVulpix
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Re: Episode #0411 (04 September 2016)

Post by MozillaVulpix » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:20 am

Nejishiki wrote:I found the insight brought about from one of the commentators interesting. I find battle power dissection boring, yet I can spend considerable time analyzing character motivations. I can play with the idea that the two aren't that different. Now, I think if there's any difference between the two, it's that's there a silent encouragement to boast superiority with one's ideals. That's not to say that "Well, I dare you to prove me wrong" attitude doesn't exist on the other side, but applying hard rules of fiction seems easier with tier placements than it does for explaining how events occurred in a story. Oddly, most of these rules are never implied to be as strict as they're being preached from my findings. I actually do think stories can be found within a battle. It's "good writing", arbitrary as that definition is, if you can walk away from the story and effectively describe the difference in how Butta and Reacoom go about attacking their opponents, for one example.
Oh, that was my comment! Perhaps you're right about the difference there. Although I know there can be long discussions and "I'm right" arguments about character motivations (the 'was Gohan out-of-character during the Cell Games' is one in particular I've seen heated arguments about), most of the time, you don't necessarily go and say "my character interpretation is better than your character interpretation". And you don't assume both readings can't co-exist. Whereas with Power Levels, there is only one number a character can have at a particular point in time, so there's only one possible right answer.

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Re: Episode #0411 (04 September 2016)

Post by Nejishiki » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:39 am

MozillaVulpix wrote:
Nejishiki wrote:I found the insight brought about from one of the commentators interesting. I find battle power dissection boring, yet I can spend considerable time analyzing character motivations. I can play with the idea that the two aren't that different. Now, I think if there's any difference between the two, it's that's there a silent encouragement to boast superiority with one's ideals. That's not to say that "Well, I dare you to prove me wrong" attitude doesn't exist on the other side, but applying hard rules of fiction seems easier with tier placements than it does for explaining how events occurred in a story. Oddly, most of these rules are never implied to be as strict as they're being preached from my findings. I actually do think stories can be found within a battle. It's "good writing", arbitrary as that definition is, if you can walk away from the story and effectively describe the difference in how Butta and Reacoom go about attacking their opponents, for one example.
Oh, that was my comment! Perhaps you're right about the difference there. Although I know there can be long discussions and "I'm right" arguments about character motivations (the 'was Gohan out-of-character during the Cell Games' is one in particular I've seen heated arguments about), most of the time, you don't necessarily go and say "my character interpretation is better than your character interpretation". And you don't assume both readings can't co-exist. Whereas with Power Levels, there is only one number a character can have at a particular point in time, so there's only one possible right answer.
Oh, was it? I meant to check back on the podcast to get my reference correct, but I didn't have the inspiration for it at the time. Thank you for saving me the trouble. :D

Right, but I think the part that's lost upon that type of discussion is that there are multiple layers to a battle, which is the case with characters too. I've never read Hunter x Hunter, but the example ParkerAL showcased aligns well with the direction I'd like to go. While the two of us could discuss Gohan's behavior in the Cell Game, be it civil or harshly, we'll never be literal over what's fact or not. Flexibility can be found through insights each of us may have never considered alone. It's exploring the mind in mutual sense.

In the case of battle powers, it feels as if elements ultimately compiled throughout the narrative are lost in the "metagame" of picking and choosing information, as opposed to looking at the entire picture. There's this notion that the "power scaling" only works "this" way. The flexibility is hardened. Kaboom tends to elaborate how early Dragon Ball stories had its characters applying their ki with physical strength as opposed to raw energy, explaining why the in-universe battle powers managed to read lowly despite their feats. That's cleverly analyzing the characters' minds and methods with how they fight, while also delving into the internal scale of fighters. We learn the "Earthling" and "Namekian" technique firsthand and it's contrasted with the "Saiyan" technique later, branching further as multiple characters openly admit to having to read, adjust, and react to new surroundings. I prefer to investigate the motive before I tackle the cause, working backwards, so to speak. That's a strong example of that, I think. I've managed to have some insightful discussions over fighting technique between characters that didn't devolve into rigid numbering and enjoyment could be found by subtly learning their characters simultaneously. The flexibility returns! Now we're thinking like the characters.

Let's just give this a brief try in what I intend to convey. Piccolo is a former Mazoku clansman, so his fighting technique is violent and brutal, even once he's reformed. It's in his DNA. Gohan is technical in practice, but unrefined in the heat of the moment, reflecting his gentle nature developing differently than his father. Combine these traits together and you can piece how a battle between the personalities would play out. I think Piccolo would immediately be the aggressor, forcing Gohan into the defensive. I could go further into the possible conclusions, but I think I made a point well enough. Sure, overwhelming strength is a factor, but even in the sections of the story that are accused of being simple muscle matches, strategy and pacing is always applied in some capacity and I try my best to bring that up, when applicable. I don't know, I just find it infinitely more interesting that way. It combines the best of both worlds while reminding us to be excited about what we're experiencing. :thumbup:

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Re: Episode #0411 (04 September 2016)

Post by TKA » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:23 pm

VegettoEX wrote:So again, difference between "genuine thought exchange, challenging each others' points, and maybe even trying to reach a consensus" and "fuck you your numbers are wrong". The latter is all I see elsewhere.
So your gripe is with shitty people, rather than with power level debates. Shitty people make everything bad, no matter how good it is [see: various religions that talk about peace and brotherhood, then look at the people following said religions]. I think it's important for you especially, one of the pillars of the dragonball community, period, to differentiate between this entire "genre" of dragonball discussion and shitty people ruining everyone's fun. It's unfair to look at a group of people based solely on the actions of those without tact or common courtesy. That small minority of shitty people would pick something even more arbitrary than fictitious numbers to be abrasive about.

I mean, it's kind of a frowned-upon cliche at this point to label a group of people based on the actions of a loud minority.
Herms wrote:But I worry that, to a certain extent, it's a zero sum game here: the fact that the strength debate crowd are swimming in such great big gobs of power probably means that there's not quite as much power to go around for the rest of the fans. The whole problem is that they currently seem to have the ability to steer any conversation straight towards what they want to talk about, effectively drowning out any other type of discussion. This doesn't always happen, but it seems to happen an awful lot, and the reverse phenomenon seems rare to nonexistent: threads on animation get derailed into strength debates, but when was the last time you saw a strength debate get derailed into an animation discussion? There's an imbalance here that seems to be skewing fan discussion as a whole in a certain direction.
It's interesting that you used discussing animation as your example here. I know that it isn't the crux of your argument, but it's interesting to me nonetheless, and I have a bit of anecdotal evidence in regards to it. See, whenever I go into a Dragonball Super thread, and it doesn't matter if it's an episode thread or general discussion thread, there's always people complaining about the animation's quality (or more specifically, lack thereof), regardless of the intention of the thread or even the (in my opinion) more interesting stuff the episode actually contained.

I don't care how the animation looks; I don't care about the fight choreography; I don't care about the music etc. I'm a simple kinda guy. I'm just in it for the characters, story and lore. The main points of discussion I look for I don't get to see a whole lot of. As a Star Wars nerd, I love continuity and I love seeing fan theories and official stuff that try to explain away discrepancies between different installments (comics, video games, movies, novels etc), so I LOVE seeing stuff like this. As a Lit nerd, I like seeing characters being analyzed and seeing greater meaning, or character arcs etc. ascribed to them, even though we all know Toriyama wasn't planning that far ahead. These are the things I like, and don't see often, but I don't think there's an imbalance, nor am I going to say people should stop talking about the score, the animation, the artwork etc. and instead discuss the things I like.

Btw, thanks for all the translations you've done for your History of Everything thread. I lost 2 days there once.
Herms wrote: Oh believe me, they have power out the wazoo. They are in no need of further power. Their supply on that score is amply sufficient. And if there were an unlimited supply of power to go around, it probably wouldn't matter.
[Insert_Tacky_Overused_Awful_"It's Over 9000"_That_Makes_Me_Feel_Like_Shit_For_Even_Using_One_Joke_Here]

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