Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

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Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby VegettoEX » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:20 am

Episode #0445 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version) (SoundCloud version)
91:12; 96 kbps, mono; 62.9 MB

Episode #0445! Mike chats with Rich and Jeff about accusations of Toyotaro tracing artwork in the lead-up to his July 2018 V-Jump cover contribution. To lighten the mood a little bit, Julian and Meri join for a quick breeze through 2015's "Dragon Ball 590 Quiz Book". Play along at home and see how strong you are!

SEGMENTS:
  • 00:12 - Introduction
  • 05:38 - Toyotaro Part 1
  • 35:09 - Toyotaro Part 2
  • 1:05:51 - 590 Quiz Book
  • 1:29:46 - Wrap-up
REFERENCED SITES:
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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby KBABZ » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:22 pm

The idea of using reference is a very tricky one. All the time at the effects studio I was at (Weta Digital, hoo-rah), we're told to start our animations with reference for it to be as best as it can possibly be. This can be filming ourselves in the reference room, or it can be using existing footage of, say, someone's dance performance. One shot I worked on for a film last year had a piece of artillery firing, and I used reference of the real-life object doing that. Well, isn't that the animation version of tracing? Is copying a gymnast's Olympic performance for an animation considered plagiarizing their hard work? When a manga artist traces over a picture of a gun to make a hyper-realistic depiction, how creatively fulfilling and progressive is that when the gun looks like a CAD drawing and the character holding it appears stylized? Me animating for a film could be excused as it being for a commercial product, but then isn't that what the DBS manga is as well to some extent?

"What is a reference, a homage?"

For me, the answer to that is that it's done with the intent that a viewer/reader pick up on the call-back to another work in a positive manner, respectfully as Jeff says. If something was plagarized, the author's intent is that the audience not find this out as it wasn't done as a respectful nod. Which is what makes the difference between copying a Captain Marvel cover and intentionally mimicking the cover of Action Comics #1.

In the discussion of the artist, I'd say that for really big artists such as Toriyama, there doesn't have to be a name there for you to know who drew it, and by that same measure I'd say that there are a certain number of fans who'll buy something just because their favourite artists did it.

And now here's how I did at the quiz!


I gots a Battle Power of 12,200!

Man I wish there was a video feed for Meri's freak out on the Trunks question!

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby Gokitalo » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:08 pm

Very nice analysis from you guys. I liked how even-handed everyone was about the issue!

Anyway... we've known for a little while now that Toyotaro has traced or at least heavily referenced the original Dragon Ball manga itself for Super. I sort of assumed that if Toriyama's aware of it, he hasn't minded too much, although there was one interview where he encouraged Toyotaro to make the art more his own-- maybe this is what Toriyama was referring to.

Of course, things escalate quite a bit when Toyotaro starts tracing from artists he doesn't work with. I have to give Dexter Soy a lot of credit for handling it as well as he has. I think this should be Toyotaro's "strike one": the wake-up call that hopefully pushes him away from tracing. It may be wishful thinking, but if Soy is willing to let it slide and more importantly, Toyotaro's willing to change, then I think it's okay to give him another chance, as long as Toriyama's alright with it and it's made abundantly clear to Toyotaro that he can't do this again. At least Toyotaro can see the Tournament of Power through, as he designed a lot of the new characters and has built up a solid professional relationship with Toriyama at this point; replacing him could delay the creative process substantially.

After the ToP arc, however, I think the manga ought to take a break, as the anime has. That'll give Toyotaro time to develop his skills further or give Toriyama et al. the chance to find a new artist for whatever form the new chapter of Dragon Ball takes on next.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby KBABZ » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:55 pm

So I actually got a chance to see the cover on the front page (I got the podcast link via the OP above).

Image

The main problem that I see immediately stick out is with Goku's shoulder. While his arm is reaching back like it does, the shoulder/clavicle does not, which is why is arm looks like it's breaking out of its socket. His head is doing something similar, the top of the body isn't rotated quite enough to justify the position of the head, which is why it looks like its breaking too. Unfortunately Toyotaro picked that one up from the original Captain America artwork. Lastly, I see Toyotaro tried to add in some extreme perspective with the left leg, but without the rest of his body participating, it just looks weird.

Overall it reminds me of this horrific piece of artwork where the arm feels only mathematically attached to the body rather than naturally, which, it must be said, was based on a manga panel:

Image

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby Captain Awesome » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:23 pm

Enjoyable podcast but I think Jeff shot from the hip without really knowing what he was talking about when he was engaging in quasi-legal arguments relating to representations made by the author of the work and what constitutes "evidence" of copyright infringement. The conversation felt really muddled as a result.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby dbgtFO » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:49 am

KBABZ wrote:
  1. 500 BP: There were three people who were not hit by the Total Extinction Wave? Dende, Mr. Satan and Bee the dog. Who isn't a person, so Tenshinhan! I consider the question confusing, should have said Human Beings. 375 points.

No, the correct answer is Tenshinhan, CHAOZU and Mr. Satan. Dende and the others on the lookout don't count, because they weren't targeted by Buu.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby KBABZ » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:22 am

dbgtFO wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
  1. 500 BP: There were three people who were not hit by the Total Extinction Wave? Dende, Mr. Satan and Bee the dog. Who isn't a person, so Tenshinhan! I consider the question confusing, should have said Human Beings. 375 points.

No, the correct answer is Tenshinhan, CHAOZU and Mr. Satan. Dende and the others on the lookout don't count, because they weren't targeted by Buu.

Oops! Forgot to mark that one in red!

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby DBZfan29 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:00 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:Enjoyable podcast but I think Jeff shot from the hip without really knowing what he was talking about when he was engaging in quasi-legal arguments relating to representations made by the author of the work and what constitutes "evidence" of copyright infringement. The conversation felt really muddled as a result.


Yeah, I agree. Not quite sure what he was getting at about people taking unoriginal photos of landmarks and how there's anything wrong with that if it's just for sentimental value. Didn't seem relevant. I think as Mike was saying this isn't really about infringing on anyone's rights, it's about fans expecting more from an official creator of the series.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby TheGreatness25 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:20 pm

I found this episode to be really, really informative, entertaining, and it touched on a very important topic. I had a blast listening to this, thank you! And then when the quiz book came out, I did pretty well for the first few questions or so lol

I will say, though, that the episode inspired me to draw something and after about 10 attempts of drawing something without a real reference, I decided that I was in over my head and gave up. Oh well, maybe one day I'll nail it without having to look at something else.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby jpranevich » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:20 pm

Great podcast as usual, but I'm concerned that you had too much false equivalency in your analysis of the Toyotaro situation.

Toyble sampling from the real Dragon Ball manga to build a Dragon Ball AF fan manga, or even for a professional Dragon Ball Super manga, isn't a tremendously big deal. In the former case, he was a fan artist doing a fan work and re-using elements of the work that he is fanning over (for lack of a better term) doesn't seem surprising or much worse than unlicensed reuse of the characters and setting anyway. If he did trace any Dragon Ball manga for Dragon Ball Super's manga then it's all the same franchise and he has a direct master-apprentice relationship with the original author. That seems "okay", perhaps even occasionally "expected".

But tracing from a Captain Marvel issue is a completely different story. Although your podcast did not cover it, some of the Reddit threads showed direct line-for-line correspondence in things like Goku's hands which suggest that it was more than a "reference". With Captain Marvel, there is no connection with Dragon Ball except that he used a Captain America pose to more than inform a Goku pose. It just feels like a much bigger deal and less acceptable. The fact that it was cover art, i.e. visible and used to sell more copies of the manga, makes it even worse. A hidden panel somewhere? Eh. The cover? Well, that means something.

I happen to be in the minority that has enjoyed his take on Dragon Ball Super a great deal. I think he cares more for power scaling and consistency than Toei/Toriyama ever have and I found his retelling of the Goku Black saga to be in many ways superior. I'm very let down by this and I hope he can move on without doing this again. I hope he does not get kicked off of the team, but he let a lot of fans down by doing this.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby TheGreatness25 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:26 pm

jpranevich wrote:I happen to be in the minority that has enjoyed his take on Dragon Ball Super a great deal. [b][u]I think he cares more for power scaling and consistency than Toei/Toriyama ever have and I found his retelling of the Goku Black saga to be in many ways superior.


Would that be up to him? I was under the impression that he was merely the artist for the manga, while Toriyama was still in charge of the story. I'm honestly confused about the entire anime/manga of Super and who's in charge of what (mostly because I don't have much interest in it aside from it being on my "to watch/read" list one day). But, I'm pretty sure that Toyotaro was merely the artist.

It's fine that he traced as a fan artist -- more wouldn't even be expected. Lots of people do that and even back in the day, aside from a few original images, the majority of the AF pictures that came out, were in fact Photoshopped. I don't think that there's any sort of expectation from an artist that openly creates a fan manga based on an existing manga. However, as an artist on an official work? While tracing is understandable sometimes, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it, I'll agree with the points brought up in the Podcast where the idea came forth that this prevents an adequate understanding of why things look a certain way. I can take a great picture of Goku and try to trace over it with another character with another outfit -- this could lead to anatomy issues, as there needs to be an understanding of what's connected to what, etc. As pointed out, this lack of understanding why certain images are composed the way they are in the original manga, has led to issues with necks, etc.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby VegettoEX » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:32 pm

jpranevich wrote:Toyble sampling from the real Dragon Ball manga to build a Dragon Ball AF fan manga, or even for a professional Dragon Ball Super manga, isn't a tremendously big deal. In the former case, he was a fan artist doing a fan work and re-using elements of the work that he is fanning over (for lack of a better term) doesn't seem surprising or much worse than unlicensed reuse of the characters and setting anyway. If he did trace any Dragon Ball manga for Dragon Ball Super's manga then it's all the same franchise and he has a direct master-apprentice relationship with the original author. That seems "okay", perhaps even occasionally "expected".

The intent there was simply to set a baseline and to frame the historical context as "has traced before"... which has transitioned into "is suspected to still be tracing" and "well now we know for sure he's still tracing". You're right in that it's "not a big deal" in his AF comic... or perhaps it is to someone?... but it's definitely worth pointing out.

The Captain Marvel tracing would still be a big deal if it was the first instance of ever knowing he's traced something, but it's far more informed by knowing there's a past behind it.
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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby jpranevich » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:38 pm

Would that be up to him? I was under the impression that he was merely the artist for the manga, while Toriyama was still in charge of the story. I'm honestly confused about the entire anime/manga of Super and who's in charge of what (mostly because I don't have much interest in it aside from it being on my "to watch/read" list one day). But, I'm pretty sure that Toyotaro was merely the artist.


My understanding from other threads here (I'll look for the reference) is that Toriyama provided some sort of plot outline to Toyotaro and Toei. These outlines were less than a script, more a list of things that Toriyama said happened, although I do not believe the fan community has ever seen one of these outlines. Within those bounds, they could each produce their story. That is why the manga follows the same plot but has differences in the way the battles play out, what attacks are used, and even on clothing. (Gohan wears the Piccolo suit, for example, in the Super manga while the anime had him in the Kame gi.) It seems that Toyotaro has some artistic license in the way the story is told, but not the overall beats of the story itself.

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Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Postby Gokitalo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:19 pm

jpranevich wrote:My understanding from other threads here (I'll look for the reference) is that Toriyama provided some sort of plot outline to Toyotaro and Toei. These outlines were less than a script, more a list of things that Toriyama said happened, although I do not believe the fan community has ever seen one of these outlines. Within those bounds, they could each produce their story. That is why the manga follows the same plot but has differences in the way the battles play out, what attacks are used, and even on clothing. (Gohan wears the Piccolo suit, for example, in the Super manga while the anime had him in the Kame gi.) It seems that Toyotaro has some artistic license in the way the story is told, but not the overall beats of the story itself.


Exactly. In a way, Toyotaro does sometimes get a lot of freedom: giving Trunks healing powers in the manga version of the Goku Black arc was a big diversion, although Toyo was careful to have Trunks decide to get rid of them at the end. In fact, Toyotaro did contribute a really huge plot element that made it into both the manga AND the anime, which was the return of Vegetto: he mentions that in volume two of the Tori-Toyo Free Talk, which the site posted a little while ago.

jpranevich wrote:I happen to be in the minority that has enjoyed his take on Dragon Ball Super a great deal. I think he cares more for power scaling and consistency than Toei/Toriyama ever have and I found his retelling of the Goku Black saga to be in many ways superior. I'm very let down by this and I hope he can move on without doing this again. I hope he does not get kicked off of the team, but he let a lot of fans down by doing this.


Haha, maybe a minority now with the current controversy and the mixed reception to Toyotaro's version of the ToP arc, but you're not alone: I've also really enjoyed his Super. Despite tracing and anatomy issues, he does do a lot right as an artist, and I think a lot of his plot ideas have been really stellar. Not too surprising, as his plot creativity is partially what got everyone's attention when he did his AF (e.g. introducing the "Ryu-Shin" realm for the Dragons). And I agree that he's handled power scaling a lot better than the Super anime has: didn't even need to give Trunks an "angry Super Saiyan" form!

That's why I think Toyo could benefit from a second chance. He's more than just the artist for the manga: he's a very hands-on contributor (including the manga's scripter). I think he should definitely be reprimanded and watched over, but I also think he'd be willing to change, especially since working on Super is clearly a dream job for him. After the ToP arc, Toriyama and co. can contemplate their options and decide if Toyo's changed enough to warrant his continued involvement in the franchise.


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