Episode #0091 (26 August 2007)

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VegettoEX
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Episode #0091 (26 August 2007)

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:25 pm

Episode #0091 (download MP3)
56:21; 64 kbps, mono; 25.8 MB

Episode #0091! VegettoEX, Meri, and Julian follow up with a couple more song homages regarding last week's topic, and then move into this week's DBGT ending analysis. The two big questions in every fan's mind seem to be: (1) Did Goku die? and (2) Where did he go / What did he become? We'll take you through this conversation and hopefully bring up some points you may have never noticed. August's releases and some more video game e-mails round out the episode! Referenced sites: Go ahead and grab it. Big thanks to godofchaos for hosting the bizarro *ninety-one* episodes, now.

You asked for it... here it is... our in-depth look at the ending of "DragonBall GT". What do you think? Did we entirely miss the point of something? Did we take it too far? Is it just a stupid cartoon where people hit each other and absolutely no deep thought was put into the events? Or is it some type of spectacular analysis on life that only the most pretentious art fans could ever hope to appropriately acknowledge?

w0rd.
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Post by nwoo_2002 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:01 pm

I have two thoughts that come to mind. The first supports the idea that Goku died in episode 63. As I recall the final episode pans out in the following; the episode begins, Goku is revived, Goku sees Krillin, Goku sees piccolo followed by the commercial break. When the show returns we are back at the scene of the battle were Shenlong's tail is still visible. So potentially, Goku has been in three places at once. So for that reason I believe Goku died in episode 63. My second thought is, the Dragon is created by Dende, surely he should have a say in whether the Dragon can leave or not.

Great Podcast guys, keep these discussions going

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Post by Lavender Saiyan » Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:27 pm

It is my belief that Goku did NOT die. For one simple reason, he did not have a Halo. I realize you mentioned this, but if we're going to analyze this don't we have to take this with all the logic in the DB World and forget the fact that people created it? What I'm getting at is, if you die, you have a Halo. There's no getting around that, he rose up with the Spirit Bomb without a Halo and he fired without one. Shenron I believe merely revived Goku's power afterwards.

Now then, as for where he went. I am all for the theory that he became in essence a God. Such as an immortal being who looks over the earth. Pretty much what you said, he can protect the earth without actually being around to attract any danger. Goku did look pretty young for 112, even for a Saiyan. So IMO he must have been immortal. Then of course we have the "Goku's clothes thing", perhaps Shenron simply left an exact copy of the Clothes Goku was wearing?

But, bottom line is, Goku could not have died due to the lack of his Halo. Also, he could not have died later on again due to lack of Halo later on and in the ending. One final thing I'd like to add is...well something Dub Related. When Goku goes to Roshi's island, at the very end when Goku dissapears Roshi says...

"I hope your Journey brings you back home some day"

I realize this is only a Dub quote but the Dub seems to take the route of Goku going somewhere and not being around. But at the same time not dead.
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Just listened in.

Post by JusticemilkVegetablewoman » Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:33 pm

I need to go back and watch those episodes... "You're..." I thought He had like, become part of the dragon, and is like a spirit. Like the dragon was kinda real(ish). I agree with the vessel ideas.I think he appears as an adult because Vegeta once said (correct me if I'm wrong), "Saiyans stay young as long as there is a strong opponent." Or something like that. I can't tell you exactly where, but it was near the end of Z. I hated Bulma before, now I really do. XD She's responsible! I agree with that. I highly enjoy these podcasts.
Vegeta needs some love. <3

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:01 pm

Lavender Saiyan wrote:One final thing I'd like to add is...well something Dub Related. When Goku goes to Roshi's island, at the very end when Goku dissapears Roshi says...

"I hope your Journey brings you back home some day"

I realize this is only a Dub quote but the Dub seems to take the route of Goku going somewhere and not being around. But at the same time not dead.
But you see, the dub kinda screwed the ending up in an important manner. Whereas the Japanese version leaves it ambiguous what's happening to Goku (the most we're given about him leaving are Vegeta, Roshi, and Piccolo's questioning "Are you...?"), the dub kinda forces it down the viewers' throats that he's leaving to train with Shenlong, is still alive and well, and ready to defend the Earth a hundred years later; as opposed to the Japanese version, which more or less allows us to think the next generation will take over.

As for this podcast ep, I look forward to it very much and will definitely let you guys know what I think! *Hopes the Goku Jr. special was brought up too*
14 years later

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Post by Lavender Saiyan » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:12 pm

But just think, when is there a time that Goku doesn't train? Regardless of where he goes, dead or not, he's going to train. Though I do agree that Vegeta's lines were overly messed with in the Dub. They made it seem like Shenron was going to give him some Special Training or something. Though I do think Roshi's line is fitting because I don't really see how Goku can be dead. I heard EX's theroies, but they seem to hypothetical and almost forced to me.
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Conan the SSJ
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Post by Conan the SSJ » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:18 pm

Lavender Saiyan wrote:But just think, when is there a time that Goku doesn't train? Regardless of where he goes, dead or not, he's going to train.
The thing is, outside the dub, there is no implying that Goku is leaving to train. At best, we're only left wondering if he made a secret deal with Shenlong, if he knows this is his destiny to leave his family to go to some special realm, if he really is dead and Shenlong plans to accompany him to the next world; we don't know. But training is never implied. Vegeta does question Goku if he's leaving to train at first, but his expression turns from curiosity to shock as his question changes to "Kakarrot, are you...?"
14 years later

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Post by Ex-Dubbie369 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:57 pm

I thoroughly enjoyed this topic. I thought it was interesting to see you guys bring up the nature of the Genki Dama. One could say that Goku did die from Ii Xing Long's attack, and was possibly able to temporarily come back to life with the energy he gathered sustaining him (using the Movie 7 "absorb a Genki Dama" logic).

Lavender Saiyan wrote:It is my belief that Goku did NOT die. For one simple reason, he did not have a Halo.
This can't really be used in defense because of GT's messed up logic. In the Super 17 arc, most of the dead people didn't have halos, so make with that what you will.

Also, as a possible suggestion for episode 100, maybe you could do a Top 100 list. Maybe not even 100, cause that would be difficult to do.

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Post by Peabo » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:09 pm

Great podcast as ususal!
It encouraged me to go back and listen to some of the computer game music and I found some new ripoffs! Check these out:

http://rapidshare.com/files/51485407/Bu ... y.zip.html

Both from Dragonball Z 2 / Budokai 2 on the PS2. One is a copy of My Elastic Eye by the Chemical Brothers, and the other is a copy of Prime Audio Soup by Meat beat Manifesto. They are practically the same songs played using slightly different keyboard sounds!

I included both versions of each song in the zip and they are only snippets, not the full songs (for copyright reasons of course!)

Hope you enjoy!
Last edited by Peabo on Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by JusticemilkVegetablewoman » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:11 pm

Ex-Dubbie369 wrote:I thoroughly enjoyed this topic. I thought it was interesting to see you guys bring up the nature of the Genki Dama. One could say that Goku did die from Ii Xing Long's attack, and was possibly able to temporarily come back to life with the energy he gathered sustaining him (using the Movie 7 "absorb a Genki Dama" logic).

Lavender Saiyan wrote:It is my belief that Goku did NOT die. For one simple reason, he did not have a Halo.
This can't really be used in defense because of GT's messed up logic. In the Super 17 arc, most of the dead people didn't have halos, so make with that what you will.

Also, as a possible suggestion for episode 100, maybe you could do a Top 100 list. Maybe not even 100, cause that would be difficult to do.

The reason most of them didn't have halos is because they were from Hell. Looking around, most people in Hell don't get halos. Just my thoughts on that subject.
Vegeta needs some love. <3

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Post by Ex-Dubbie369 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:13 pm

JusticemilkVegetablewoman wrote:
Ex-Dubbie369 wrote:I thoroughly enjoyed this topic. I thought it was interesting to see you guys bring up the nature of the Genki Dama. One could say that Goku did die from Ii Xing Long's attack, and was possibly able to temporarily come back to life with the energy he gathered sustaining him (using the Movie 7 "absorb a Genki Dama" logic).

Lavender Saiyan wrote:It is my belief that Goku did NOT die. For one simple reason, he did not have a Halo.
This can't really be used in defense because of GT's messed up logic. In the Super 17 arc, most of the dead people didn't have halos, so make with that what you will.

Also, as a possible suggestion for episode 100, maybe you could do a Top 100 list. Maybe not even 100, cause that would be difficult to do.

The reason most of them didn't have halos is because they were from Hell. Looking around, most people in Hell don't get halos. Just my thoughts on that subject.
Oh, that might be it too.

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Post by TAS » Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:00 pm

Dead or Alive

I believe that Goku gave his life in order for the dragon to grant one last wish. In other words Goku gave up his life to Shen Long as long as Shen Long returned everything to normal.

Afterwards

As far as what happend to him at the end of GT I'm pretty sure he became one with the dragonballs, so in essence as long as they exist, he exists as well, and as far as what he is, god, spirit, etc, etc, I think you can view him in whatever capacity you view Shen Long.

Training

When it comes to Goku and the subject of training, I don't know what purpose he would have to train anymore after that point. I mean he's on a totaly different level of existence after GT, ie it's not like he could become any stronger after that or go beyond what he's become at that point. Not to mention it's not as if he's going to be fighting anyone anymore, so what purpose would he have to train.

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Post by Lavender Saiyan » Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:06 pm

This can't really be used in defense because of GT's messed up logic. In the Super 17 arc, most of the dead people didn't have halos, so make with that what you will.
I always kind of assumed that they actually came back to life somehow due to Hell's opening.
When it comes to Goku and the subject of training, I don't know what purpose he would have to train anymore after that point. I mean he's on a totaly different level of existence after GT, ie it's not like he could become any stronger after that or go beyond what he's become at that point. Not to mention it's not as if he's going to be fighting anyone anymore, so what purpose would he have to train.
But remember, Omega was stronger than him and Vegeta was on his level. There was still people to surpass and compete with. Albiet people he'll never see again, but he did train after the Cell Era while dead.
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Post by TAS » Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:20 pm

But remember, Omega was stronger than him and Vegeta was on his level.
But Goku's level of power would be completely different after merging with the dragonballs. One could aurgue that he's as powerful as Shen Long.
There was still people to surpass and compete with.
Not after becoming what Goku became at the end of GT.
Albiet people he'll never see again, but he did train after the Cell Era while dead.
Yeah because he could still fight with people in the afterlife.

He's become something TOTALY different then he or anyone else in the series has ever been by the end of GT.

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Post by Hero 004 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:42 pm

Great topic. Here's my theory; it's pretty similar to what you guys said on the show, if not just worded different.

I think that at the end of GT Goku pretty much becomes a wandering spirit. His body doesn't necessarily exist anymore, given that his clothes were found by Pan and he went inside the dragon. But his spirit can travel between the afterlife and Earth, perhaps using Shenron's power. I'd say what SaiyaJedi said about him "watching over" and "indirectly affecting events" most closely matches what I think.

I also really liked the idea of what you guys said about him being the protector/vessel of the Dragonballs.

Episode 100? Wow, I remember when the first episode was posted. :cry: they download so fast :cry:. How about three in depth reviews (kind of like this one) of episode 100 of DB, episode 100 of DBZ, and chapter 100 of the manga. I'm sure others have better ideas than that, but that's what I've got.

Great episode, guys!
"Sometimes life is too uncertain to have regrets"- Goku

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Post by Gaiash » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:13 pm

My thoughts are that Goku goes to wherever Shenlong spends his time (sleeping if I remember correctly) when he isn't summoned. Ok now I have this strange idea of Goku and Shenlong (who has a body like Shendu from Jackie Chan Adventures for no reason) drinking tea served by Porunga. Maybe I should draw that.

On the Sparking email. With the second game most of my enjoyment came from the Vs mode after unlocking all the characters. Its the only part of the game I ever replay. With the story mode I agree whole heartedly with the Daiz trio, theres nothing new for me there.

On non fighting Dragon Ball games, I'd like something with an all new story with an all new villian. I like the classic DBZ villians a lot but I really want to see a new face to the Dragon Ball world.
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Post by Lavender Saiyan » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:55 pm

But Goku's level of power would be completely different after merging with the dragonballs. One could aurgue that he's as powerful as Shen Long.
Um, Shenron isn't powerful. He was killed by King Piccolo and Dende's version is the exact same one as Kami's. Remember, they used the same Dragon.
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Post by kuchi » Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:37 pm

On the subject of song "homages," the famous riff from "Smoke on the Water" appears a couple times in "'Ya' Na Koto Ni Wa Genki-Dama", which I believe is on disc 3 of the DragonBall and DragonBall Z 5-CD OST. I think the first time it appears is about 42 seconds into the song.

Apologies if anyone already pointed this out.

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Post by TriforceCaptre » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:50 am

Animal Crossing with dragonballs, that'd be great! :D *digs* *woot woo woot woo* "Wow! I dug up a dragonball. That poor dragon..."

Anyways, haveing not seen the last episodes (or the majority of GT for that matter) but haveing seen the TV special, here's my take on it.

I started to think about how the four star ball ends up inside Grandpa Gohan's house again and the way Goku called it "Grandpa" when Dragonball first begins. Going with those little bits of info I thought "maybe Goku IS the dragonball and went back home to where his "grandpa" was." Then remembering that he absorbed all of the dragonballs I thought that maybe he is all of them, like he became Shenlong in a way, by that I mean his spirit is inside all of them. The difference being that he can come out as he pleases to visit people, since he's not bound by the same rules as Shenlong since he wasn't created the same way...if that makes sense.

All of this sounds okay in my head, not sure how well it translated into writing but hopefully it makes sense and doesn't sound like complete rambling :P .
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Post by Chuquita » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:52 am

I subscribe to the theory that Goku didn't die.
Though that's mostly because of the lack of halo.


Also I found Mike's multiple usage of the phrase "good deal" hilarious for completely unrelated reasons.
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