Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:41 pm

Scsigs wrote:I thought that was because it was cheaper to import the dub from Canada for some reason than the American dub. I mean, the main reason they switched back to the Canadian cast in Canada after airing the FUNi dub was because of Canadian broadcast regulations saying that at least 50% of content that airs on Canadian TV networks HAS to be produced in Canada, & dubs from there count towards that.
Funimation charged an absolute bomb for their episodes back in the day. My pet theory on why AB Groupe even started the Westwood dub is that because of how much Funimation were charging per episode, AB Groupe were able to get a dub together for cheap with a cast many people were already endeared to for DBZ and maybe even preferred, and AB Groupe could sell theirs for a fraction of the cost of Funimation. And because it was Canadian, they had the Canadian content bonus.

However, when the UK switched to Funimation for two episodes of the Fusion saga, apparently there was a big ratings drop, which went away once they switched back to Ocean's dub, so they ended up re-buying the two Funimation episodes from AB Groupe in their Ocean-dubbed form.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:03 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Scsigs wrote:I thought that was because it was cheaper to import the dub from Canada for some reason than the American dub. I mean, the main reason they switched back to the Canadian cast in Canada after airing the FUNi dub was because of Canadian broadcast regulations saying that at least 50% of content that airs on Canadian TV networks HAS to be produced in Canada, & dubs from there count towards that.
Funimation charged an absolute bomb for their episodes back in the day. My pet theory on why AB Groupe even started the Westwood dub is that because of how much Funimation were charging per episode, AB Groupe were able to get a dub together for cheap with a cast many people were already endeared to for DBZ and maybe even preferred, and AB Groupe could sell theirs for a fraction of the cost of Funimation. And because it was Canadian, they had the Canadian content bonus.

However, when the UK switched to Funimation for two episodes of the Fusion saga, apparently there was a big ratings drop, which went away once they switched back to Ocean's dub, so they ended up re-buying the two Funimation episodes from AB Groupe in their Ocean-dubbed form.
Again there's never been any proof the ratings dropped at all, let alone proof that they dropped because of the dub switch and not because of the switch to an all new channel outside of the kids section. And the Funimation dub was used for the entire initial run of the Fusion saga as well as a couple of subsequent re-runs, not just 2 episodes like you keep claiming. It was on the air with the Funimation dub for over a month if not 2. Take it from someone who actually watched DBZ on CNX at the time from day 1.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:30 pm

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but until we have some hard facts to go on I think we should pull the brakes on the whole Ocean vs Funi ratings debate. I've heard it from both sides of the fence (which are both naturally biased), but I've yet to see either substantiating their argument. NitroEx brought this up before, but anyone who wants a definitive answer may Tweet former CNX owner Richard Kilgarriff who has said he thinks he might know who knows the answer.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:43 am

I feel like someone should have asked him "Who might that be?", but the time has passed for that response to be relevant anymore... :lol:
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:59 am

It wouldn't hurt to try now. If he doesn't respond then there's no point in carrying out the debate over whether the Ocean or Funi dub did better because unless someone can prove there was a ratings drop or that the cast switch caused it all we have to go on is speculation and old rumours.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:59 pm

Robo4900 wrote:Funimation had Jheese > Jeice, Butta > Burter.
Jeice and Burter arent really bad changes. it still retains the pun, albeit loosely.

Was it really Funimation who made HFIL? That sounds like a Saban choice. Just like what 4kids did to Kai.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Arian » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:42 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:Funimation had Jheese > Jeice, Butta > Burter.
Jeice and Burter arent really bad changes. it still retains the pun, albeit loosely.

Was it really Funimation who made HFIL? That sounds like a Saban choice. Just like what 4kids did to Kai.
I think it was a FUNimation-coined term that stemmed from Saban pressuring them. No different than "Next Dimension" because had it been a Saban creation, it wouldn't have carried over to the edited versions of FUNi's DBZ dub and even GT.
Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?
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The story of Kai's production is far more interesting than the actual product.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:59 pm

I personally never minded Jeice and Burter.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:53 pm

Arian wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:Funimation had Jheese > Jeice, Butta > Burter.
Jeice and Burter arent really bad changes. it still retains the pun, albeit loosely.

Was it really Funimation who made HFIL? That sounds like a Saban choice. Just like what 4kids did to Kai.
I think it was a FUNimation-coined term that stemmed from Saban pressuring them. No different than "Next Dimension" because had it been a Saban creation, it wouldn't have carried over to the edited versions of FUNi's DBZ dub and even GT.
I'd like to throw in my two cents on the Saban thing. You said that if it were a Saban creation, it wouldn't have continued on, but I disagree. It's obvious that Funimation wanted to take a different route on Kai and Super, but still ended up using their Funi-isms like "Frieza" and "Tien." I think that Funimation doesn't want to confuse its audience (what a lame-ass idea, though), so it sticks to what's been established.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Arian » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:27 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Arian wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Jeice and Burter arent really bad changes. it still retains the pun, albeit loosely.

Was it really Funimation who made HFIL? That sounds like a Saban choice. Just like what 4kids did to Kai.
I think it was a FUNimation-coined term that stemmed from Saban pressuring them. No different than "Next Dimension" because had it been a Saban creation, it wouldn't have carried over to the edited versions of FUNi's DBZ dub and even GT.
I'd like to throw in my two cents on the Saban thing. You said that if it were a Saban creation, it wouldn't have continued on, but I disagree. It's obvious that Funimation wanted to take a different route on Kai and Super, but still ended up using their Funi-isms like "Frieza" and "Tien." I think that Funimation doesn't want to confuse its audience (what a lame-ass idea, though), so it sticks to what's been established.
I hear you but I think nothing could change the pronunciation of Saiyan (which I believe was coined by Toei themselves). Imagine them saying Super Saiiya-jin or even "Sai-yan," it just wouldn't feel right in a dub. "Sei-yen" has just been etched in the western psyche so much that there's no really going back.
Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:It's an edited, cynically produced, cheap recut with a poorly utilized ancient score and awful scene recreations that later got traded in for a weird green tint.

The story of Kai's production is far more interesting than the actual product.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by NitroEX » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:06 am

Dbzfan94 wrote: Was it really Funimation who made HFIL? That sounds like a Saban choice. Just like what 4kids did to Kai.
I don't think Saban should take all the blame for that. They weren't the ones translating or writing scripts for Z nor did they have anything to do with repainting frames. As far as we know Funi always handled the repainting of frames on DBZ (it was in one of their behind the scenes videos) and they've always had a hand in creating their scripts, aside from the Pioneer produced movie dubs or Blue Water GT.

As far as I know, Saban's job was to help get the first run of Z on U.S. TV and handle the replacement music internally (and presumably collect music royalties off the show). At most, they probably helped in advising Funi on what not to say on kids television (if nothing else, to not tarnish their own reputation) but that doesn't mean they forced them to use HFIL, next dimension etc. I actually think Sabat mentioned something in relation to this in one of his interviews, he detailed that they couldn't use certain words or insults like "scumbag" due to their original meaning, so naturally, in those circumstances, it would be up to the Funi or Ocean writers to come up with alternatives. After all, Saban did have their own shows to worry about and weren't going to do all the work, according to Ron Wasserman they apparently didn't even care about DBZ that much. Also, another thing to note is that Barry Watson was producing everything back then so Funimation was overseeing it all and could say no to any scripting decisions they didn't agree with, what we got is what they wanted (at the time).

As we would later see, other creative alternatives did exist such as "destroy", "perish" and "otherworld" over words like die, kill and Heaven, and in BW's case, something like Hades over Hell. I think that another reason the Funi dub dropped references to the next dimension was probably due to Toonami's more relaxed stance on censorship, I mean they somehow let this pass quality control so they weren't exactly keeping them on a tight leash.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:05 am

NitroEX wrote:I don't think Saban should take all the blame for that. They weren't the ones translating or writing scripts for Z nor did they have anything to do with repainting frames. As far as we know Funi always handled the repainting of frames on DBZ (it was in one of their behind the scenes videos) and they've always had a hand in creating their scripts, aside from the Pioneer produced movie dubs or Blue Water GT.
I agree, although it's worth noting Funimation likely had very little(If anything) to do with Blue Water DB's scripts, and it seems that they also have had nothing to do with Ocean's Kai scripts.
TheGreatness25 wrote:I'd like to throw in my two cents on the Saban thing. You said that if it were a Saban creation, it wouldn't have continued on, but I disagree. It's obvious that Funimation wanted to take a different route on Kai and Super, but still ended up using their Funi-isms like "Frieza" and "Tien." I think that Funimation doesn't want to confuse its audience (what a lame-ass idea, though), so it sticks to what's been established.
You do have a point; Funimation are still using "Bulla", and aside from the one scene where Sean Schemmel had them put it in, Son Goku is simply "Goku" in their dubs...
Still though, as Nitro and others are saying, the actual choices for what alternatives would be used for censored things was probably down to Funimation.
Dbzfan94 wrote:Jeice and Burter arent really bad changes. it still retains the pun, albeit loosely.
Not really. Jeice doesn't sound like cheese at all; Burter kind of almost fits, but it's a bit of a stretch.
Not the most grievous Funimation name change(Bulla. Goddamn Bulla. I will never stop giving Funimation crap over that one), and honestly I'm not hugely bothered by those particular two, but if Funimation were supposedly taking a more accurate, close to the Japanese route, surely they'd be fine to make a small change like Jeice > Jheese, and Burter > Butta. It's a pretty small change, so it's unlikely to confuse or upset anyone, and it would be one more step in the "Let's do it properly this time" direction. Hell, they could even hedge their bets on it, and only change the pronunciation, leaving the spelling the same.
"Frieza" and "Buu" are just spelling differences, and don't really matter all that much, but Jeice, Burter, and Bulla are obviously just little screwups that could easily be fixed without any fuss; the only people who'd kick up a fuss are the people who consider the word "Bra" to be too lewd for children to hear... And those people are idiots.
I mean, they recast Freeza and took a totally different approach to his voice, so surely pronouncing Jeice and Burter closer to the proper, Japanese original names wouldn't be a problem?

Really, I think this just further demonstrates that, while the Funimation actors are all constantly striving to be better, the attitudes at Funimation beyond the actors are still pretty apathetic to what Dragon Ball actually is and should be.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Scsigs » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:33 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:I'd like to throw in my two cents on the Saban thing. You said that if it were a Saban creation, it wouldn't have continued on, but I disagree. It's obvious that Funimation wanted to take a different route on Kai and Super, but still ended up using their Funi-isms like "Frieza" and "Tien." I think that Funimation doesn't want to confuse its audience (what a lame-ass idea, though), so it sticks to what's been established.
"Frieza" makes sense when you consider western spellings & pronunciations against Eastern ones. English makes 0 sense as a language if you try to look at it because it's a Gemanic language influenced heavily by French & has bits of other languages thrown it, so I don't know if that pronunciation is from its Germanic roots, or the French ones, but that's how that came about & it's stuck. "Tien" is a result of them translating his name slightly differently than the Japanese. I believe I read that it's more in the way of the Chinese pronunciation.
Arian wrote:I hear you but I think nothing could change the pronunciation of Saiyan (which I believe was coined by Toei themselves). Imagine them saying Super Saiiya-jin or even "Sai-yan," it just wouldn't feel right in a dub. "Sei-yen" has just been etched in the western psyche so much that there's no really going back.
Pronouncing it "Say-an," I'm sure, is more in the way of pronouncing it in a more Western way too. Also remember that back in the 90s, pronunciation wasn't really a key thing that was adhered to a lot when dubbing anime if they adhered to what was in the original material at all. Same thing with "Kaioken," but that one's more egregious, since it should be pronounced right because of the fact that it's a move taught by King Kai. The way it's romanized, it makes sense that people would pronounce it "Say-an" because it's spelled like "traitor" & the like where "ai" is pronounced like that, unless told otherwise. Considering that I doubt they really watched the Japanese version too closely when initially dubbing the series back in the day, that explains the pronunciation differences between the languages.

And, just an aside here, am I the only one who doesn't care that the word's pronounced "Say-an" in the dub & even likes it? To me, "Saiyan" pronounced like that just hits the ear better than "Sai-an" does. That's just me, though.
Robo4900 wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:Jeice and Burter arent really bad changes. it still retains the pun, albeit loosely.
Not really. Jeice doesn't sound like cheese at all; Burter kind of almost fits, but it's a bit of a stretch.
Not the most grievous Funimation name change (Bulla. Goddamn Bulla. I will never stop giving Funimation crap over that one), and honestly I'm not hugely bothered by those particular two, but if Funimation were supposedly taking a more accurate, close to the Japanese route, surely they'd be fine to make a small change like Jeice > Jheese, and Burter > Butta. It's a pretty small change, so it's unlikely to confuse or upset anyone, and it would be one more step in the "Let's do it properly this time" direction. Hell, they could even hedge their bets on it, and only change the pronunciation, leaving the spelling the same.
"Frieza" and "Buu" are just spelling differences, and don't really matter all that much, but Jeice, Burter, and Bulla are obviously just little screwups that could easily be fixed without any fuss; the only people who'd kick up a fuss are the people who consider the word "Bra" to be too lewd for children to hear... And those people are idiots.
I mean, they recast Freeza and took a totally different approach to his voice, so surely pronouncing Jeice and Burter closer to the proper, Japanese original names wouldn't be a problem?

Really, I think this just further demonstrates that, while the Funimation actors are all constantly striving to be better, the attitudes at Funimation beyond the actors are still pretty apathetic to what Dragon Ball actually is and should be.
Meh, "Jeice" & "Burter" aren't really anything to get mad at, really. If you heard those names, then someone told you that they were puns on "cheese" & "butter," I don't think you'd bat an eye. I also think it's more to actor pronunciation difficulties. Like, how the hell would you pronounce "Jheese" anyways?
Changing "Bra" to "Bulla," though, actually makes sense. If they changed it back in Super, that'd be nice, but I'd understand if they kept it. Back when they dubbed GT, it was the first time that her name was ever spoken on screen, since I don't think they ever did in Z, so they didn't know what exactly to do. And with how it's pronounced in the Japanese dub, "Burura," or something to that effect, I don't think they were really wrong with how they approximated it, it just lost the pun in the translation, but you can understand how they got it if you're told what her name originally was. It's similar to getting "Bulma" from "Buruma," since it's a pun on "Bloomers," so it should be rendered "Bluma/Blooma." I don't know. I feel like you're getting mad over something that doesn't matter as much as you want it to. I mean, it's certainly worth a discussion, but not legitimate anger.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by NitroEX » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:39 pm

I'd wager that someone at Funimation (probably Barry Watson) was likely enforcing the kay-o-ken pronunciation. It was pronounced correctly in the Pioneer produced Ocean dub, which they had little to do with, as well as during the Pikkon episodes of the Westwood Ocean dub (when Goku uses the "super Kaioken"). Funimation continued to stick with Kay-o-ken until Kai.
Scsigs wrote: Pronouncing it "Say-an," I'm sure, is more in the way of pronouncing it in a more Western way too.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that, maybe it feels more weird for Americans to say it that way but UK promos from the early 2000s used to pronounce it correctly and I'm guessing the people creating those didn't know much about the show, they were just pronouncing it the way they felt was right or most natural to them.
And, just an aside here, am I the only one who doesn't care that the word's pronounced "Say-an" in the dub & even likes it? To me, "Saiyan" pronounced like that just hits the ear better than "Sai-an" does. That's just me, though.
I personally don't care too much about the Saiyan pronunciation at this point (the damage has already been done) but if they were able to suddenly fix it I would be equally as fine with the alternative.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:22 pm

Scsigs wrote:Meh, "Jeice" & "Burter" aren't really anything to get mad at, really. If you heard those names, then someone told you that they were puns on "cheese" & "butter," I don't think you'd bat an eye. I also think it's more to actor pronunciation difficulties. Like, how the hell would you pronounce "Jheese" anyways?
But the thing is, you shouldn't really need to be told that the names are puns to get it. It should be at least somewhat possible to get it on your own, and that's only for cases where it's not blatantly obvious... Freeza, Vegeta, Oolong, Raditz, Trunks, Bra...
You pronounce "Jheese" the same way they do in Japanese; it's pretty much just the word jeez(As in "Aw, jeez, I dunno...") but with an S sound instead of a Z.
Scsigs wrote:Changing "Bra" to "Bulla," though, actually makes sense. If they changed it back in Super, that'd be nice, but I'd understand if they kept it. Back when they dubbed GT, it was the first time that her name was ever spoken on screen, since I don't think they ever did in Z, so they didn't know what exactly to do. And with how it's pronounced in the Japanese dub, "Burura," or something to that effect, I don't think they were really wrong with how they approximated it, it just lost the pun in the translation, but you can understand how they got it if you're told what her name originally was. It's similar to getting "Bulma" from "Buruma," since it's a pun on "Bloomers," so it should be rendered "Bluma/Blooma." I don't know. I feel like you're getting mad over something that doesn't matter as much as you want it to. I mean, it's certainly worth a discussion, but not legitimate anger.
Her name in Japanese is most closely approximated in English as Bura. If you use L instead of R, then you get Bulla. So yes, it is technically a valid romanisation, but you could say the same about Tolankusu being a valid romanisation of Trunks, or Laditsu instead of Raditz.
Thing is, it's blatantly a censorship change. There's no other explanation; Bulma's name is known to be a pun on bloomers, her father is Dr. Briefs, her son is Trunks, so obviously Bra's name is Bra. Raditz is obviously supposed to sound similar to radish, Vegeta is a pun on vegetables(What the hell would a Bejitable be?), It's a censorship change, and it should die in uncut dubbing like HFIL and Hercule did. Funimation infamously were pretty bad at translation, but they rarely went into blind idiot territory outside of censorship changes, particularly by the time they were doing GT and the end of the Boo arc.

But, it's too late. Apparently, they called her Bulla in The Final Chapters.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Scsigs » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:51 pm

Robo4900 wrote:But, it's too late. Apparently, they called her Bulla in The Final Chapters.
Only in the credits, as far as I'm aware. Her name is never said onscreen, so they could still change it back by the time she's born in Super if they wanted. I get what you're saying about it being a needless change, since I agree, but it seems the damage is done there.
"Hercule" is still used in the TV edits of Kai, the Bang Zoom dub of Super, & the video games, but in the uncut dubs, it's rendered back to "Mr. Satan." Other than those, yeah, I'd agree.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:01 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't GT the first time where they actually said her name? In Z, she had like one line and nobody referred to her by name; we just knew her name from supplemental information?

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Arian » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:03 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't GT the first time where they actually said her name? In Z, she had like one line and nobody referred to her by name; we just knew her name from supplemental information?
They're referring to the credits in Kai where her name is written out.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:47 am

Yeah, but does it really matter if the only place her name appears in, is the credits?

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Valerius Dover » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:21 pm

Arian wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't GT the first time where they actually said her name? In Z, she had like one line and nobody referred to her by name; we just knew her name from supplemental information?
They're referring to the credits in Kai where her name is written out.
The credits also refer to the Grand Elder as Guru and retain the names for those two gunmen from the Z dub. That being said, Super's official subs suggest that they are keeping the name.
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