Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

[8000 Saiyan]

I've seen people saying that a show should get an union dub because of its popularity, which never really made sense to me.

[Super Sayian Prime]

I've seen people saying that a show should get an union dub because of its popularity, which never really made sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to you that shows more capable of delivering a return on investment should receive larger budgets?

[8000 Saiyan]

Sure, but do they really need big budgets? Is it really necessary for people like Frank Welker to be in anime?

[Super Sayian Prime]

Sure, but does it really need a big budget? Are people clamouring for Jennifer Hale to be in Dragon Ball?

I'm sure someone somewhere is. There's a lot of people on this planet.

People just want the best talent to work on shows they like. They (rightfully or wrongly) believe the best talent would seek the best wages for their work, so they'd join a union. Of course, SAG dubbing rates in the US actually aren't very high compared to other acting gigs, so even union productions struggle to attract the best.

To bring this back to Dragon Ball, Ocean's dubs are unionized. When they got replaced as the main English version, it was by non-union actors in Texas. When they got replaced as the alternate English version, it was by non-union actors in Los Angeles.

[8000 Saiyan]

I can understand people wanting for the best acting talent to be in anime, but sometimes that's impossible considering that dubbing pays very little compared to pre-lay.

[Scsigs]

I can understand people wanting for the best acting talent to be in anime, but sometimes that's impossible considering that dubbing pays very little compared to pre-lay.

I mean, you can find both good & bad actors both in union & nonunion parts of the acting world. Personally, I could care less which the actors come from, as long as I can still enjoy the product itself. I mean, Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep (as with the rest of the games) was a union dub & Aqua & Terra's VAs weren't that good for what was required of them. It's all a matter of acting talent & direction VS the amount of money paying the actors.

[TheQuazz]

I certainly don't mean to play mini-mod here (especially since I've done a bit of off-topic commenting on this thread myself), but perhaps discussions about the Ocean dub in general would best be served by taking place on its own thread, and not a thread devoted to the Ocean dub of Kai. If we keep this thread devoted to the original subject--the Ocean dub of Kai--then it'll be easier to keep track of developments on that front.

Since "tone" isn't always clear over the internet, let me be clear, I'm just putting this out there as a casual suggestion, not an angry demand or anything like that. It's not in my power to enforce that anyway, I just thought I'd make a suggestion. *shrug*

I second this (edit: kinda, lol). As interesting as it is to read about your thoughts on the anime dubbing industry, I'd like it if this thread stays mostly on-topic about developments regarding the Ocean Kai dub. As a pretty big lurker, it's pretty frustrating to see pages upon pages of discussion on this thread every week, only to find, after reading through it all, that almost none of it is related to this dub.

Then again, now that I think about it, making an Ocean dub thread in "General Franchise Discussions" would mean that it'd be pretty hard to go as off topic about dubbing in general as ya'll do here. The mods don't really seem to care about what goes on in the "Dragon Ball Kai" section of this site, as every other thread is inactive, the show is long past being relevant, and I don't think a lot of them really care about the subject matter being discussed over here, lol. So if the ongoing conversation here was moved to a "Ocean Studios dub Discussion" thread, it would keep popping up on the most popular part of the forum, so not only would the mods be more strict on keeping things "related to dragon ball", but a lot of the general community would probably get involved and just bog the thread down.

Either way, I (and many other people, most likely), would really appreciate it if a lot of this talk was moved elsewhere. At the moment it's very inconvenient to keep track on if the dub's actually getting closer to seeing the light of day, not only for people like me who regularly check here, but also for anyone else who stumbles across this thread from outside of Kanzenshuu who wants a run-down of the situation. Remember, the information thrown around in the threads of Kanzenshuu isn't available on many other easy-to-find sites, so not only is this a place for discussion, but also a kind of very messy Dragon Ball database, filled with pretty niche insights on a wide range of aspects of the series. That's what I mainly what I use it for, anyway, lol.
But if you guys really think this is the place, go ahead and keep on discussin'.

[MasenkoHA]

Then again, now that I think about it, making an Ocean dub thread in "General Franchise Discussions" would mean that it'd be pretty hard to go as off topic about dubbing in general as ya'll do here. The mods don't really seem to care about what goes on in the "Dragon Ball Kai" section of this site, as every other thread is inactive, the show is long past being relevant, and I don't think a lot of them really care about the subject matter being discussed over here, lol. So if the ongoing conversation here was moved to a "Ocean Studios dub Discussion" thread, it would keep popping up on the most popular part of the forum, so not only would the mods be more strict on keeping things "related to dragon ball", but a lot of the general community would probably get involved and just bog the thread down.

Either way, I (and many other people, most likely), would really appreciate it if a lot of this talk was moved elsewhere. At the moment it's very inconvenient to keep track on if the dub's actually getting closer to seeing the light of day, not only for people like me who regularly check here, but also for anyone else who stumbles across this thread from outside of Kanzenshuu who wants a run-down of the situation. Remember, the information thrown around in the threads of Kanzenshuu isn't available on many other easy-to-find sites, so not only is this a place for discussion, but also a kind of very messy Dragon Ball database, filled with pretty niche insights on a wide range of aspects of the series. That's what I mainly what I use it for, anyway, lol.
But if you guys really think this is the place, go ahead and keep on discussin'.

Meh, I attempted an general English/other languages dub discussion in the main general discussion but if someone wants to make a thread in the General Discussion forum for the specific Ocean dubs, be my guest

[TheQuazz]

Sorry! I didn't notice that you'd already made one! My bad!

[Super Sayian Prime]

Ocean's Alberta casting site recently updated their list of productions and for the first time Kai has been listed:

http://www.chinookanimation.com/productions.html

[NitroEX]

Wow, nice find.

This seems to indicate that the show may be headed for Canadian TV after all? Unless any of those other listed shows are currently MIA.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Ocean's Alberta casting site recently updated their list of productions and for the first time Kai has been listed:

http://www.chinookanimation.com/productions.html

Oooooh! How recent was this update?

[Super Sayian Prime]

Ocean's Alberta casting site recently updated their list of productions and for the first time Kai has been listed:

http://www.chinookanimation.com/productions.html

Oooooh! How recent was this update?

Relatively recently. This is an archived version from August and you'll see no Kai mention. The copyright line at the bottom mentions 2018, so sometime this year. Google caught the new version on March 13th.

Wow, nice find.

This seems to indicate that the show may be headed for Canadian TV after all? Unless any of those other listed shows are currently MIA.

I wouldn't say it indicates anything other than the actors no longer needing to walk on egg shells when talking about this dub. The majority of that list has never aired on Canadian television.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I wouldn't say it indicates anything other than the actors no longer needing to walk on egg shells when talking about this dub. The majority of that list has never aired on Canadian television.

*Sigh*, why must you plunge a dagger into my heart like that, Super Saiyan Prime?

I kid, of course, thanks for updating us...to say my hopes of seeing this dub are low would be an understatement, but it refuses to die completely. One day, perhaps. One day!

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm afraid the Ocean actors could have been replaced with Blue Water ones from Alberta.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm afraid the Ocean actors could have been replaced with Blue Water ones from Alberta.

Insider info has suggested that most of the major parts were cast using Ocean's talent pool in Vancouver, and the smaller parts were done in Calgary under the supervision of Blue Water. I've been told it wouldn't be the first time that has been done, either.

I wondered how this was possible, considering I thought Ocean exclusively did union dubs under ACTRA (the Canadian actors union), and at least in the US, if a dub is a union dub, that means all actors have to be paid (at least) union scale rates, and the producers are required to obey union rules. It's unheard of in the US for some actors to be working under a union contract and others under a non-union contract for the same show. So, there are three possibilities:

1) ACTRA rules are different than SAG-AFTRA (the US union) rules.

2) The entire Ocean dub of Kai is, in fact, a non-union dub.

3) I've been told that Blue Water still uses union actors, but they go through a different union, known as CLAC (the Christian Labour Association of Canada), a union that represents several different industries, voice-over actors included. It could be that maybe ACTRA and CLAC are allowed to have actors on the same show since they're both technically labor unions. However, in my estimation, this appears to be the least likely explanation based on my research of CLAC. Apparently, CLAC is notorious for being a bad union, in that they almost always side with the employer in favor of lower wages and poorer working conditions (which, of course, is the exact opposite of what a labor union is supposed to do). The Canadian federation of unions, the Canadian Labour Congress (CLC) doesn't even officially recognize CLAC. A lot of the articles on CLAC's website are pretty ironically union-bashing in tone. The Alberta Chapter of ACTRA even has a section of their website devoted to dissing CLAC, noting that Chinook Animation, which Super Saiyan Prime linked to in his earlier post, was the first organization to get on board with them. So...I dunno. It seems doubtful that ACTRA, who absolutely hates CLAC, would work with them.

That's the thing about this dub. It has no shortage of mysteries.

PS: I couldn't help but chuckle in a, "This matches what I've heard"-kind of way after I read this article from CLAC saying that that they ratified a new agreement in January of this year for voice actors...in which wages were frozen. But a representative from Chinook Animation said that this was important in order to "remain competitive." Way to go, CLAC.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I wouldn't say it indicates anything other than the actors no longer needing to walk on egg shells when talking about this dub. The majority of that list has never aired on Canadian television.

*Sigh*, why must you plunge a dagger into my heart like that, Super Saiyan Prime?

I kid, of course, thanks for updating us...to say my hopes of seeing this dub are low would be an understatement, but it refuses to die completely. One day, perhaps. One day!

Same here, this listing was a pleasant surprise and got me feeling cautiously optimistic (although the same can be said for a lot of updates regarding this dub that have yet led to nothing) although I am going to wait for further evidence to come out and indicate this dub is on the right trajectory to being released but I will never give up hope. At the very least we know WOW's channel will be launching very soon and from Marni's responses to requests for Kai there's been nothing to suggest any problems have arisen with an acquisition.

I wouldn't say it indicates anything other than the actors no longer needing to walk on egg shells when talking about this dub. The majority of that list has never aired on Canadian television.

Again, I may be cautiously optimistic here but even the actors being given a bit of leeway is something. It may not be the first time, as has been brought up previously with Richard Ian Cox finally alluding to playing Goku. Part of me feels these are signs that things are on track and that this dub has a chance of making it on-air.

I wasn't as hopeful previously but since we know Wow want to broadcast anime, that Dragon Ball is ideal for an anime block and Kai has a Canadian dub the CRTC will prefer for Wow to use even if there was reservations or confusion I am going to try look at things somewhat positively now. It will sure as hell pay off if all this works out and we can at long last see Ocean Kai in all its (hopefully, but I'd take a westwood level product at this stage) glory.

I'm afraid the Ocean actors could have been replaced with Blue Water ones from Alberta.

I mean, we know for a fact the Vancouver cast have fully recorded their lines for the first 98 episodes. I don't see any reason why Ocean would redub especially when this dub's only source of income will be TV airings.

[Super Sayian Prime]

I'm afraid the Ocean actors could have been replaced with Blue Water ones from Alberta.

Insider info has suggested that most of the major parts were cast using Ocean's talent pool in Vancouver, and the smaller parts were done in Calgary under the supervision of Blue Water. I've been told it wouldn't be the first time that has been done, either.

I wondered how this was possible, considering I thought Ocean exclusively did union dubs under ACTRA (the Canadian actors union), and at least in the US, if a dub is a union dub, that means all actors have to be paid (at least) union scale rates, and the producers are required to obey union rules. It's unheard of in the US for some actors to be working under a union contract and others under a non-union contract for the same show. So, there are three possibilities:

1) ACTRA rules are different than SAG-AFTRA (the US union) rules.

2) The entire Ocean dub of Kai is, in fact, a non-union dub.

3) I've been told that Blue Water still uses union actors, but they go through a different union, known as CLAC (the Christian Labour Association of Canada), a union that represents several different industries, voice-over actors included. It could be that maybe ACTRA and CLAC are allowed to have actors on the same show since they're both technically labor unions. However, in my estimation, this appears to be the least likely explanation based on my research of CLAC. Apparently, CLAC is notorious for being a bad union, in that they almost always side with the employer in favor of lower wages and poorer working conditions (which, of course, is the exact opposite of what a labor union is supposed to do). The Canadian federation of unions, the Canadian Labour Congress (CLC) doesn't even officially recognize CLAC. A lot of the articles on CLAC's website are pretty ironically union-bashing in tone. The Alberta Chapter of ACTRA even has a section of their website devoted to dissing CLAC, noting that Chinook Animation, which Super Saiyan Prime linked to in his earlier post, was the first organization to get on board with them. So...I dunno. It seems doubtful that ACTRA, who absolutely hates CLAC, would work with them.

That's the thing about this dub. It has no shortage of mysteries.

PS: I couldn't help but chuckle in a, "This matches what I've heard"-kind of way after I read this article from CLAC saying that that they ratified a new agreement in January of this year for voice actors...in which wages were frozen. But a representative from Chinook Animation said that this was important in order to "remain competitive." Way to go, CLAC.

I'm not sure there's been a fully Vancouver Ocean anime dub since the early 2010s. Beyblade Burst, Sinbad, Gintama, Kiznaiver, Dragon Ball Kai, B-Daman Crossfire, etc. have all been mixed pools. I believe it started with the Gundam 00 movie. I don't know the legal logistics of that. It's safe to say that the ACTRA actors are likely being paid ACTRA rates, as (in the released shows) they're credited under their real names and not a pseudonym. While ACTRA and SAG are partners on a lot of things, they're ultimately two separate unions. ACTRA itself has some variances between the province you live in.

I know that CLAC post sounds comical, but truthfully I find it hard to argue against it. Canadian media production lives and dies off its ability to remain cost-effective. Just look at what happened to Vancouver in the late 2000s/early 2010s after the exchange rate shifted. Suddenly you had companies close up shop and plenty of production people uprooting their lives to move to LA because work had dried up that badly. That was the case in one of the world's largest hot spots for media production. Alberta's television and film industries are microscopic in comparison. Prior to Blue Water, there was essentially no voice acting scene. With few exceptions, ACTRA shouldn't be looking at CLAC as their dollars that got away. In all likelihood, those are dollars that would've otherwise gone to a non-union cast in the US or somewhere else. If you want, you can read CLAC's CBA. Their actors are not paid peanuts (see pages 38 to 41). Isn't that actually higher than SAG's hourly foreign animation dubbing rate? IIRC that's like $68/hour or thereabouts but I guess the exchange rate might be the equalizer and you don't have worry about the other SAG benefits.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm afraid the Ocean actors could have been replaced with Blue Water ones from Alberta.

Insider info has suggested that most of the major parts were cast using Ocean's talent pool in Vancouver, and the smaller parts were done in Calgary under the supervision of Blue Water. I've been told it wouldn't be the first time that has been done, either.

I wondered how this was possible, considering I thought Ocean exclusively did union dubs under ACTRA (the Canadian actors union), and at least in the US, if a dub is a union dub, that means all actors have to be paid (at least) union scale rates, and the producers are required to obey union rules. It's unheard of in the US for some actors to be working under a union contract and others under a non-union contract for the same show. So, there are three possibilities:

1) ACTRA rules are different than SAG-AFTRA (the US union) rules.

2) The entire Ocean dub of Kai is, in fact, a non-union dub.

3) I've been told that Blue Water still uses union actors, but they go through a different union, known as CLAC (the Christian Labour Association of Canada), a union that represents several different industries, voice-over actors included. It could be that maybe ACTRA and CLAC are allowed to have actors on the same show since they're both technically labor unions. However, in my estimation, this appears to be the least likely explanation based on my research of CLAC. Apparently, CLAC is notorious for being a bad union, in that they almost always side with the employer in favor of lower wages and poorer working conditions (which, of course, is the exact opposite of what a labor union is supposed to do). The Canadian federation of unions, the Canadian Labour Congress (CLC) doesn't even officially recognize CLAC. A lot of the articles on CLAC's website are pretty ironically union-bashing in tone. The Alberta Chapter of ACTRA even has a section of their website devoted to dissing CLAC, noting that Chinook Animation, which Super Saiyan Prime linked to in his earlier post, was the first organization to get on board with them. So...I dunno. It seems doubtful that ACTRA, who absolutely hates CLAC, would work with them.

That's the thing about this dub. It has no shortage of mysteries.

PS: I couldn't help but chuckle in a, "This matches what I've heard"-kind of way after I read this article from CLAC saying that that they ratified a new agreement in January of this year for voice actors...in which wages were frozen. But a representative from Chinook Animation said that this was important in order to "remain competitive." Way to go, CLAC.

I know that CLAC post sounds comical, but truthfully I find it hard to argue against it. Canadian media production lives and dies off its ability to remain cost-effective. Just look at what happened to Vancouver in the late 2000s/early 2010s after the exchange rate shifted. Suddenly you had companies close up shop and plenty of production people uprooting their lives to move to LA because work had dried up that badly. That was the case in one of the world's largest hot spots for media production. Alberta's television and film industries are microscopic in comparison. Prior to Blue Water, there was essentially no voice acting scene. With few exceptions, ACTRA shouldn't be looking at CLAC as their dollars that got away. In all likelihood, those are dollars that would've otherwise gone to a non-union cast in the US or somewhere else. If you want, you can read CLAC's CBA. Their actors are not paid peanuts (see pages 38 to 41). Isn't that actually higher than SAG's hourly foreign animation dubbing rate? IIRC that's like $68/hour or thereabouts but I guess the exchange rate might be the equalizer and you don't have worry about the other SAG benefits.

Thanks for linking to that, this was an interesting read!

You're right, those aren't peanuts (at least compared to SAG-AFTRA's contract). Actually, according to Google, the USD value of CLAC's dubbing rate would be $96.14 for the first hour, unless the actor's "per line" fee of $2.59 per line adds up to more, in which case the actor gets paid whichever rate is higher. That's higher than SAG-AFTRA's dubbing rate ($64.25), the contract for which doesn't have a "per line" clause. CLAC's rate is also higher than all the non-union rates for all the dubbing studios here in the US that I'm familiar with. So, yeah, not a horrible deal. And like you said, there's definitely an argument to be made that keeping things cost-effective is something that Canada needs to take into account. My experience with the Canadian acting and voice acting industry is that they're very, very conscious of the fact that their southern neighbor is essentially the show biz capital of the world, and they negotiate their contracts accordingly to incentivize producers to stay in Canada.

That's not to say there aren't parts of the contract that still rub me the wrong way, though. CLAC's contract only guarantees a one-hour minimum, for example, whereas SAG-AFTRA's contract guarantees a two-hour minimum. SAG-AFTRA's dubbing contract has overtime fees, which CLAC's doesn't. There's also a lot of language in this contract that I'm not accustomed to seeing in other union contracts, like the surrendering of fees in certain situations, a clause forbidding the actors from going on strike and threatening actors with disciplinary action if they do, and a clause necessitating that, if an actor cannot continue their work for medical reasons, then that needs to be verified by a doctor of Chinook Animation's choosing (really, CLAC!?). So, not all bad I guess, but even from looking at this CBA I can see why CLAC gets accused of some of the stuff that it does.

[Robo4900]

I'm afraid the Ocean actors could have been replaced with Blue Water ones from Alberta.

Currently known Dragon Ball Kai Ocean dub cast list:

CALGARY:

• Brendan Hunter as Tenshinhan
• James Beach as an unknown character in episode 21

VANCOUVER:

• Scott McNeil as Piccolo, Jeice, Dr. Briefs
• Brian Drummond as Vegeta
• Michael Dobson as Nappa
• Saffron Henderson as Gohan
• Richard Ian Cox as Goku (Newcomer)
• Lee Tockar as Freeza (Newcomer)
• Cole Howard as #17 (Newcomer)

Yes, sounds like everyone has been replaced with Calgary actors.
(Apologies for the snark, but to be fair, it is pretty funny when you look at the facts here, compared to your speculation)