Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

[TheGreatness25]

You know, there's all this excitement and whatnot... It'll be really, really funny if they think that the fans mean Funimation's Kai. Now I know that it's been specified by the fans, but that doesn't mean that anyone who matters knows to differentiate between the two versions.

[GokuDaimao]

You know, there's all this excitement and whatnot... It'll be really, really funny if they think that the fans mean Funimation's Kai. Now I know that it's been specified by the fans, but that doesn't mean that anyone who matters knows to differentiate between the two versions.

It's interesting that you say that, because when SX connected Marni with Lisa, Lisa tried to get Marni to license the FUNimation dub of Kai. But our girl knew better and refused communication with her at that point, knowing that the Cancon Ocean dub is where it's at for us. She works damn hard, I will say.

[TheBlackPaladin]

You know, there's all this excitement and whatnot... It'll be really, really funny if they think that the fans mean Funimation's Kai. Now I know that it's been specified by the fans, but that doesn't mean that anyone who matters knows to differentiate between the two versions.

Dude, don't joke about that!

I say that only because I made pretty much that exact same joke many years ago when Toei Europe announced that Kai would begin airing in the UK...and when the first promo aired, showcasing FUNimation's dub, I felt like I jinxed it.

[SX10]

I was looking at those old e-mails again and I was wondering if I just panicked at the time. Started to think maybe Lisa was offering Funi Kai Final Chapters only or alluding to the idea that they could get Ocean to dub it to complete everything.

But it's so much better to err on the side of caution here. Glad to see notifications for this thread again

Really hope April is the actual launch date!

What do you think is involved in these negotiations?

[TheBlackPaladin]

What do you think is involved in these negotiations?

Hard to say. In fact, impossible to say, since I've never negotiated the dubbing rights for...well, anything.

That said, I have some guesses.

1) ACTRA, the Canadian actor's union.

I'm not certain if the Ocean dub is union or not since there are apparently some Blue Water actors involved, but what I can say is that if it is a union dub, and it's being done under the ACTRA dubbing agreement...well, that could complicate matters. ACTRA dubs are actually more expensive than SAG-AFTRA (US actors union) dubs--and that's even with taking currency exchange rates into account. For that matter, even putting the money aside, whereas SAG-AFTRA just has an hourly rate defined by how the dub will be seen (Streaming vs. Broadcast TV vs. Home Video vs. Theaters), ACTRA's agreement is way more comprehensive and multi-faceted, and has way more rules. For example, the ACTRA agreement has an hourly rate...but the total number of lines of dialogue that each actor has per session--grunts/screams/vocal efforts included--has to be counted and tallied, because if the number of lines an actor has exceeds a certain limit, they are entitled to additional pay beyond the normal hourly rate. How much additional pay? Depends on the number of extra lines.

Yeah. That comprehensive.

On top of their fees that they get just for their recording sessions, the actors also receive additional "usage fees" depending on how their work will be seen and distributed. Assuming I read the agreement correctly, I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if the Ocean dub actors got some checks in the mail for the re-release of their work for the "Rock the Dragon" box set, since the Ocean dub of DBZ was indeed an ACTRA dub.

So, when you compare ACTRA's pretty comprehensive dubbing agreement to FUNimation's non-union dub, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe some broadcasters were thrown off by the prospect of airing a dub where they would have to not only pay for the rights to air the dub, but possibly cut another round of usage fee checks to all the actors. With a cast as of characters--and actors--as big as Kai, that's no small consideration. Especially when the alternative was to pay for a much more affordable dub of the same show. For that matter, a more affordable dub of the same show with a cast of actors that, regardless of what you think of their performances--good or bad--is generally considered the more "official" and "mainstream" dub cast at this point.

Soooo, tl;dr...it's quite possible that the Ocean dub costs way more, which may have thrown off some broadcasters.


2) Toei.

Honestly, I think this is probably the more likely scenario. The original production company has far more say in negotiating the dubbing rights than one might think. It's not always a matter of who's willing to pay the most. According to Tiffany Grant, while ADV ended up getting the rights to dub Neon Genesis Evangelion, they were not the highest bidder for the rights. Apparently, Sony was. However, Sony insisted on a lot of changes...they wanted to change the music, cut out a lot of the philosophical stuff...they basically, in Grant's words, wanted to re-cut and adapt the show into something that would more appropriately be called "Angel Fighters." Gainax, the original animation company, was having none of that. ADV said they'd adapt it faithfully and would allow a lot of direct supervision from Gainax (which Gainax proved very interested in, as Grant said that that dub was, by far, the most supervised production she ever worked on in terms of supervision from the original animation company). Gainax liked the sound of that far better and, for far less than Sony was offering, sold the rights to ADV.

As it relates to Toei and FUNimation, it could very simply be that, while Toei has most certainly dealt with Ocean before, at this point they have a far more established business relationship with FUNimation, and thus, pushed their dub instead.

So, issues of profit cuts, creative control, and established business relationships could easily be factors here. They certainly have been before!

[Cure Dragon 255]

But there's got to be some advantage to make it appealing to Canadian Broadcasters...or isnt there?

[Robo4900]

I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if the Ocean dub actors got some checks in the mail for the re-release of their work for the "Rock the Dragon" box set, since the Ocean dub of DBZ was indeed an ACTRA dub.

No, I believe Brian Drummond specifically said in his interview with Geekdom that royalties of any kind were not in their agreement for dubbing Dragon Ball, at least not back in the day.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out the agreement made for the Ocean Kai dub also results in no royalties... Thinking on it, I'm not actually sure it was Drummond, but one of the Ocean actors I was watching a video of said that one reason Canada is great for TV and such is that very often, for voiceover work, Vancouver actors don't get paid royalties, so for dubbing, the studio can just come in, get the thing dubbed, pay X amount for the production, then whether it's a hit or not, the company have only spent X on the talent. If they want to do more, they will then once again be able to depend on only spending X amount, perhaps a bit more if it's been a success so far, but ultimately it is a finite thing that they know in advance. They don't have to worry about syndication, etc.

IIRC dubbing and perhaps one of the Mainframe shows were singled out in the case I'm thinking of. I'm not sure where specifically I heard it, though. I think it was either the Brian Drummond interview, or a panel with Michael Dobson. Or perhaps a Drummond panel?... I've absorbed a good bit of info about this stuff from various such things, so I'm not really sure where I heard it.

regardless of what you think of their performances--good or bad--is generally considered the more "official" and "mainstream" dub cast at this point.

I'd argue this is highly debatable. Average casual fans in Canada probably won't have really seen the show since its original TV run, thus would remember the Ocean voices primarily.

Soooo, tl;dr...it's quite possible that the Ocean dub costs way more, which may have thrown off some broadcasters.

Given the fact the Westwood media dubs' main advantage for broadcasters over Funi were that it was cheaper, and Ocean was the cast people were more used to, I think this dub would have been produced very carefully such that if it is more expensive than Funi's dub, it won't be by much at all, especially since it's likely only available as an edited-for-TV dub, unlike Funi's, which networks have the option of airing uncut if they wish.

So... I must admit, while you rase interesting points, I'm sceptical.

2) Toei.

Honestly, I think this is probably the more likely scenario. The original production company has far more say in negotiating the dubbing rights than one might think. It's not always a matter of who's willing to pay the most. According to Tiffany Grant, while ADV ended up getting the rights to dub Neon Genesis Evangelion, they were not the highest bidder for the rights. Apparently, Sony was. However, Sony insisted on a lot of changes...they wanted to change the music, cut out a lot of the philosophical stuff...they basically, in Grant's words, wanted to re-cut and adapt the show into something that would more appropriately be called "Angel Fighters." Gainax, the original animation company, was having none of that. ADV said they'd adapt it faithfully and would allow a lot of direct supervision from Gainax (which Gainax proved very interested in, as Grant said that that dub was, by far, the most supervised production she ever worked on in terms of supervision from the original animation company). Gainax liked the sound of that far better and, for far less than Sony was offering, sold the rights to ADV.

As it relates to Toei and FUNimation, it could very simply be that, while Toei has most certainly dealt with Ocean before, at this point they have a far more established business relationship with FUNimation, and thus, pushed their dub instead.

So, issues of profit cuts, creative control, and established business relationships could easily be factors here. They certainly have been before!

One thing you're forgetting is that Ocean aren't a dubbing company, they're a studio you hire to bring in actors, directors, etc. to do the dubbing work. They're beholden to whoever is producing the dub, so while your story here is interesting and worth considering, it would only apply to whoever was producing the dub. And remember, we have reason to believe it was Toei themselves who produced this dub.

Additionally, remember, Toei has never been shown to be "Pushing [Funi's] dub instead", the only thing we saw was Lisa Yamatoya pointing out that Funi's dub covered all 167 episodes, while the Ocean dub was only the first 98. A lot of people seem to forget this, and warp this into some kind of deliberate snubbing... Much as a deliberate snubbing sounds like an interesting story that would add a context to what's happened so far that puts us at the centre of a narrative of the fans and Marni Shulman saving this dub from the abyss to an even greater degree than is certainly the truth, I think it's best to remember exactly how it happened, and what the context was.

With all this in mind, I'd like to also add that as far as we know, Wow are the only network who's shown any interest in Ocean Kai so far, so they're not competing with anyone. If Toei wants Kai in Canada, they have to deal with Wow, and if Wow favours the Ocean dub, Toei will give them that, because that's just smart business. And it may work out better for Toei in the long run anyway if they did indeed produce Ocean Kai, since they would in theory make more money off it than if they sold a Funi dub that Toei only get a cut of the profits of.
And remember... Whether or not Toei produced the Ocean Kai dub, if it hits big enough to result in more Ocean Kai dubbing, that can only be good for Toei; if they produced it themselves, it means Canadian airings are more profitable for Toei than if Funi's dub had been used, and if someone else produced it, then it means they've not got one, but two different studios licensing the show for dubbing, which again, is more profitable for Toei.

So, Toei have no reason to have any bias against Ocean's Kai dub.

[Super Sayian Prime]

I'd be very surprised if ACTRA is at all an issue here. They've offered an upfront buy-out fee for ages that most productions take advantage of. That negates any kind of residuals. None of this should be new to Wow either, as they're a Canadian animation studio who've used many of the same actors in their shows. Marni herself is a veteran of the Canadian TV industry.

I imagine any negotiation issues comes down to Toei's price, streaming availability and/or simply wanting to sign the dotted lines at a time most advantageous. I've mentioned this before, but I suspect Wow's linear TV channel is just another way to make money off of the content library they're delivering to Crave (a Canadian SVOD service). AFAIK, Kai still isn't available to stream anywhere, so that could be an issue.

Spoiler:

It would be oddly poetic if that's because Toei didn't get proper clearance to haphazardly dump Kikuchi's music in the show, as this dub has its own score.

For all we know, maybe they're waiting to see if Toei can scrounge up HD materials?

[Robo4900]

I'd be very surprised if ACTRA is at all an issue here. They've offered an upfront buy-out fee for ages that most productions take advantage of. That negates any kind of residuals. None of this should be new to Wow either, as they're a Canadian animation studio who've used many of the same actors in their shows. Marni herself is a veteran of the Canadian TV industry.

Right. Glad to know I'm not crazy as far as the "Ocean Dragon Ball dubs don't do residuals" thing. Thanks for clearing that up.

I imagine any negotiation issues comes down to Toei's price, streaming availability and/or simply wanting to sign the dotted lines at a time most advantageous. I've mentioned this before, but I suspect Wow's linear TV channel is just another way to make money off of the content library they're delivering to Crave (a Canadian SVOD service). AFAIK, Kai still isn't available to stream anywhere, so that could be an issue. It would be oddly poetic if that's because Toei didn't get proper clearance to haphazardly dump Kikuchi's music in the show, as this dub has its own score. For all we know, maybe they're waiting to see if Toei can scrounge up HD materials?

This makes sense, and I agree with your speculations here.

Thing is, some people do talk about "kai doesn't stream", and I think chances are a streaming deal is a part of why the negotiations may be taking this long. Toei aren't totally averse to streaming -- Funi stream episodes of Super as they air in the USA, Crunchyroll as they air in Japan -- but back in 2010, I think they were, and now that Kai is old news for the USA, while Toei have changed their position on streaming, no one wants to negotiate it over there. And even if the negotiations would be okay to enter into otherwise, it's possible you're right about the music, and that would make such negotiations a bugger to navigate.

So... Crave may end up being the first place to stream Kai. Your point about the Kikuchi score may be true, and if so, would make this easier than it's been for other places.

As for HD materials... It looks like it was at least partially edited in HD, so it may be that Ocean or the dub's producers -- assuming Toei didn't produce -- have HD copies, and Toei do not, so they're just trying to get that all together. There may be other factors, for instance while we know for certain this dub had an edited version, there's still the small unknown that floats around that an uncut version was talked about, Brian Drummond talked about one line that had an alternate recorded(Over 9000 vs over 8000), so it is possible any lines that would need to be added to make this dub uncut were recorded, and some kind of uncut dub was assembled in case, and the idea of both versions being licensed is being thrown around -- cut for TV, uncut for Crave, or perhaps cut for daytime TV and an "Edited" option on Crave, uncut for evening TV and an "Uncut" option on Crave...

Despite the surprising amount of info we've scrounged up about this secretive dub over the years, we really still know bugger all, so we really do just have to wait and see, I'm afraid.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Those are good points about Kai on streaming service. I remember watching Kai episodes streaming on Nicktoons' website and it was great to watch it free of charge.

Hope that 2019 is Ocean Kai's year. *fingers crossed*

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Given the fact the Westwood media dubs' main advantage for broadcasters over Funi were that it was cheaper, and Ocean was the cast people were more used to, I think this dub would have been produced very carefully such that if it is more expensive than Funi's dub, it won't be by much at all, especially since it's likely only available as an edited-for-TV dub, unlike Funi's, which networks have the option of airing uncut if they wish.

I definitely think there's a very real chance the Ocean dub of Kai could be cheaper than the Funimation dub. Remember during DBZ's original run on Toonami Funimation charged huge royalties for the use of the Faulconer score, which led AB to funding the Westwood dub. AB even used the original scores for the Blue Water and Big Green dubs, which makes me suspect that even with the added costs of the original scores (which are known to be expensive to license) it was still cheaper to produce alternate dubs for them than use the Funi dubs with their replacement scores (except OG DB, which retained its original score, but the Blue Water dub used the Keenlyside score in place of insert songs so that probably helped tip the price in favour of their version).

I can't see the Ocean dub being more expensive this time because it's using some Blue Water actors, and its the only dub with a replacement score, not to mention the economic benefits of having a Canadian produced replacement score.

[Robo4900]

Given the fact the Westwood media dubs' main advantage for broadcasters over Funi were that it was cheaper, and Ocean was the cast people were more used to, I think this dub would have been produced very carefully such that if it is more expensive than Funi's dub, it won't be by much at all, especially since it's likely only available as an edited-for-TV dub, unlike Funi's, which networks have the option of airing uncut if they wish.

I definitely think there's a very real chance the Ocean dub of Kai could be cheaper than the Funimation dub. Remember during DBZ's original run on Toonami Funimation charged huge royalties for the use of the Faulconer score, which led AB to funding the Westwood dub. AB even used the original scores for the Blue Water and Big Green dubs, which makes me suspect that even with the added costs of the original scores (which are known to be expensive to license) it was still cheaper to produce alternate dubs for them than use the Funi dubs with their replacement scores (except OG DB, which retained its original score, but the Blue Water dub used the Keenlyside score in place of insert songs so that probably helped tip the price in favour of their version).

I can't see the Ocean dub being more expensive this time because it's using some Blue Water actors, and its the only dub with a replacement score, not to mention the economic benefits of having a Canadian produced replacement score.

Point of note: We don't actually know why the Westwood dub was produced, but we do know AB Groupe didn't produce it, they only distributed it, and only in European territories. It was actually produced by Westwood media, thus the name. AB Groupe did additionally provide the video master for the last few episodes of Z, and all of DB and GT, but that was the extent of their involvement, really.

But, the Westwood dubs being cheaper is likely at least partially down to the scoring costs, and the cheaper cost of this dubbing is likely part of why so many places picked Westwood's dubs up instead of Funi's.

[MasenkoHA]

Huh. I coulda sworn the Westwood/post-Saban Ocean dub existed because of AB Groupe’s distribution rights?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Pretty sure Westwood Media are just another hired gun other companies use to do audio recording. Remember they are part of the Ocean Group (of studios, which there are others, including Blue Water and BLT) not a production company.

As far as we know AB did produce the Westwood dub with Funimation's edited masters up until the last three episodes. After that they used the French masters for the last few episodes of DBZ and for the entirety of the Blue Water dubs.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Pretty sure Westwood Media are just another hired gun other companies use to do audio recording. Remember they are part of the Ocean Group (of studios, which there are others, including Blue Water and BLT) not a production company.

As far as we know AB did produce the Westwood dub with Funimation's edited masters up until the last three episodes. After that they used the French masters for the last few episodes of DBZ and for the entirety of the Blue Water dubs.

Just a question, where was the Westwood Dub recorded? In US or France?

I've read that it wasn't produced in Canada which I thought it was a Canadian dub as the primary audience was Canada/UK and Scandinavian countries.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Pretty sure Westwood Media are just another hired gun other companies use to do audio recording. Remember they are part of the Ocean Group (of studios, which there are others, including Blue Water and BLT) not a production company.

As far as we know AB did produce the Westwood dub with Funimation's edited masters up until the last three episodes. After that they used the French masters for the last few episodes of DBZ and for the entirety of the Blue Water dubs.

Just a question, where was the Westwood Dub recorded? In US or France?

I've read that it wasn't produced in Canada which I thought it was a Canadian dub as the primary audience was Canada/UK and Scandinavian countries.

I would think the recordings themselves were done in Canada, if Ken Morrison was willing to stop using the Vancouver cast for GT to save costs I couldn't imagine him flying them over to France or even the US.

Where did you read the Westwood dub wasn't produced in Canada? AB most likely authorized the dub's creation, funded the cast, directors, engineers, etc and did all the necessary negotiations for getting it on TV by phone from France, and sent the French masters to Canada for the dub's masters to be assembled from those materials and the edited masters Ocean got from Funimation up until the edited episode 273/274.

To my knowledge the only AB dubs that had any sort of release in Scandinavia were the Big Green dubs.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Maybe I confused it with the Blue Water dubs but those were recorded in Canada too, I think. Thanks all the same for clarifying that.

Don't know how Quebec Canadians feel about not having their own dub of Dragon Ball series and movies but suppose they're fine with the dubs from France.

[Danfun64]

Despite being both successful in English Canada and in France, AFAIK DBZ never aired in its entirety in Quebec (don't quote me on that). When it did air, it was imported straight from France (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ1NcxAZUYk). There was a Bilingual "World of Dragon Ball Z" DVD released in Canada that came with some Kraft Dinner packs, apparently circa 2005. The English side of things had the aforementioned "World of Dragon Ball Z" special as well as DBZ ep 124-125 (uncut numbering). The French dub was the same, but since no preexisting French audio existed for the Special, it received a Quebec dub... which only had access to the finalized English audio instead of a proper Music/Effects audio track, leaving it the French equivalent of the Zero Y El Dragon Magico movie double feature, or Speedy DBZ Movies 9 and 10 as well as DB Movie 3, and the entirety of the Albanian dubs (https://imissbionix.wordpress.com/2018/ ... on-ball-z/)

[Cure Dragon 255]

http://kidscreen.com/2019/02/07/ex-drea ... OgzaxKs%3d

Wow is indeed coming together!

[Super Sayian Prime]

Don't know how Quebec Canadians feel about not having their own dub of Dragon Ball series and movies but suppose they're fine with the dubs from France.

Not a tonne of shows get French Canadian dubs, especially anime. Hollywood movies are far more common, which occasionally creates weird situations. The French dub of Yu-Gi-Oh! that aired in Quebec is the European one, but the 2004 theatrical film got a local dub. Pokemon was really unique because the version aired on TV initially was the European dub slightly re-recorded to match the U.S. names for merch synergy. The first six or seven movies had their own French Canadian cast. That died out once Viz got the home video distribution rights to the franchise, since they couldn't care less about Canada. Now everything is just a straight import of the dub from Belgium.

Makes me wonder what would've happened if Fox distributed Broly in North America. Then again, I don't think DBE got a French Canadian dub either.