Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

[TheBlackPaladin]

The rest is just so weird. Like... my brain actually is trying to comprehend it, and it isn't working. Especially the concept that these lesser known dubs wind up spending more than FUNI even now.

It really is mind-boggling, isn't it? And how's this for more brain pain: it's unclear if the Ocean dub of Kai is an ACTRA dub or not since there are apparently some Blue Water actors involved (who go through a different, cheaper "union" called CLAC), but even if we go by Blue Water's CLAC dubbing rates as an example, that would already make the Ocean dub of Kai more expensive than FUNimation's dub...and we haven't even seen it. That means somebody went ahead and paid for actors, recording and mixing engineers, script adaptation, a new musical score, and visual editing for a 99-episode dub--and paid more for it than FUNimation--before a TV deal had even been secured for this TV-only dub.

....And now my brain's hurting too.

[wjbraden]

@NirtroEx

Thanks for all of the clarification, you (and everyone else here who has added a ton of great info and sources) pointed out a lot of holes in my theory, so I appreciate the explanations and facts you guys supplied, you rock! (and I've still got a lot to learn )

I wasn't aware that Toei Europe wasn't around until 2004, so now I'm wondering who sent the tapes to the UK and what led to the switching off between the Ocean and Funimation dub for the Buu saga? Was it Canada and America, Toei in Japan, or even the AB Groupe somehow?

Also, I'm still not too sure why Ocean added those sound effects to the Funi in-house episodes. You mention they might have done so for a more "polished" product, but why do something that doesn't need to be done in the first place, as there were already adequate sound effects present (to me, the ones shown in Arian's clips sounded shoe-horned in, and inappropriately-placed, such as Krillin gripping his hand and it sounding like he's tugging on a piece of leather in "Krillin's Proposal" https://youtu.be/nh4m4HXzRwk?t=1). I still think Ocean was adding these sound effects in to try to get some Cancon points for the program on YTV.

Just curious, do you think Cancon played into the production of the "Westwood" (or whatever we want to call it) dub, Nirto?

[Attitudefan]

@NirtroEx

Thanks for all of the clarification, you (and everyone else here who has added a ton of great info and sources) pointed out a lot of holes in my theory, so I appreciate the explanations and facts you guys supplied, you rock! (and I've still got a lot to learn )

I wasn't aware that Toei Europe wasn't around until 2004, so now I'm wondering who sent the tapes to the UK and what led to the switching off between the Ocean and Funimation dub for the Buu saga? Was it Canada and America, Toei in Japan, or even the AB Groupe somehow?

Also, I'm still not too sure why Ocean added those sound effects to the Funi in-house episodes. You mention they might have done so for a more "polished" product, but why do something that doesn't need to be done in the first place, as there were already adequate sound effects present (to me, the ones shown in Arian's clips sounded shoe-horned in, and inappropriately-placed, such as Krillin gripping his hand and it sounding like he's tugging on a piece of leather in "Krillin's Proposal" https://youtu.be/nh4m4HXzRwk?t=1). I still think Ocean was adding these sound effects in to try to get some Cancon points for the program on YTV.

Just curious, do you think Cancon played into the production of the "Westwood" (or whatever we want to call it) dub, Nirto?

It is possible they added sound effects to meet an audio standard. The SFX supplied by Toei are in high fidelity mono but not in stereo. The sound effects added are in stereo.

[C. Smith]

It is possible they added sound effects to meet an audio standard. The SFX supplied by Toei are in high fidelity mono but not in stereo. The sound effects added are in stereo.

Well, Toei decided that it was a good idea to destroy the stereo audio, leaving only mono. Hence the extremely tinny quality of the Japanese voice track. Thank goodness the viewers videotapes all the episodes and donated them all the way to Chris Sabat.

[Super Sayian Prime]

And how's this for more brain pain: it's unclear if the Ocean dub of Kai is an ACTRA dub or not since there are apparently some Blue Water actors involved (who go through a different, cheaper "union" called CLAC), but even if we go by Blue Water's CLAC dubbing rates as an example, that would already make the Ocean dub of Kai more expensive than FUNimation's dub...and we haven't even seen it.

My assumption is that in these mixed pool productions the ACTRA actors get their rates, while the CLAC ones get their usual. I say that because the Vancouver actors never go under pseudonyms for these dubs, where as Vancouver actors who've done work on Blue Water-only shows have.

[TheBlackPaladin]

And how's this for more brain pain: it's unclear if the Ocean dub of Kai is an ACTRA dub or not since there are apparently some Blue Water actors involved (who go through a different, cheaper "union" called CLAC), but even if we go by Blue Water's CLAC dubbing rates as an example, that would already make the Ocean dub of Kai more expensive than FUNimation's dub...and we haven't even seen it.

My assumption is that in these mixed pool productions the ACTRA actors get their rates, while the CLAC ones get their usual. I say that because the Vancouver actors never go under pseudonyms for these dubs, where as Vancouver actors who've done work on Blue Water-only shows have.

And that could very well be, as I don't know how the law works with respect to Canadian labor unions (and your point about pseudonyms certainly lends credibility to the idea). If that is the case, though, it strikes me as very strange. Firstly because, in the U.S., you can't have more than two unions representing the same category of work working on the same production, and secondly because ACTRA and CLAC hate each other.

Add it to the pile of mysteries surrounding this dub, I guess!

[NitroEX]

I wasn't aware that Toei Europe wasn't around until 2004, so now I'm wondering who sent the tapes to the UK and what led to the switching off between the Ocean and Funimation dub for the Buu saga? Was it Canada and America, Toei in Japan, or even the AB Groupe somehow?

AB were distributing it to the UK. As for the dub switch, no one really knows for sure but I don't think Toei had anything to do with it, they were very negligent with foreign dubs of DB back then. I once tried asking Richard Kilgarriff (who was previously in charge of CNX and other Turner channels back in 2002) but he didn't have any answers and, to be honest, after this many years I doubt anyone involved at the time even remembers. If I had to guess it was probably either AB Groupe and Ocean experiencing delays or Turner US lending episodes of the Funi dub to the UK division until Ocean's were made available.

Also, I'm still not too sure why Ocean added those sound effects to the Funi in-house episodes. You mention they might have done so for a more "polished" product, but why do something that doesn't need to be done in the first place, as there were already adequate sound effects present (to me, the ones shown in Arian's clips sounded shoe-horned in, and inappropriately-placed [...] I still think Ocean was adding these sound effects in to try to get some Cancon points for the program on YTV.

I don't think it had anything to do with Cancon. Ocean typically adds additional sound effects to their kids anime dubs, it's nothing new or exclusive to Dragon Ball.

I've also already shown that Funimation themselves were in favour of the practice and attempted to do it in their own in-house dub. No one had a problem with it.

Just curious, do you think Cancon played into the production of the "Westwood" (or whatever we want to call it) dub, Nitro?

I personally don't think so. As others have mentioned, it premiered in Europe a long time before it aired in Canada so it clearly wasn't made for Canadian TV, at least not at first.

[Azelf89]

I wasn't aware that Toei Europe wasn't around until 2004, so now I'm wondering who sent the tapes to the UK and what led to the switching off between the Ocean and Funimation dub for the Buu saga? Was it Canada and America, Toei in Japan, or even the AB Groupe somehow?

AB were distributing it to the UK. As for the dub switch, no one really knows for sure but I don't think Toei had anything to do with it, they were very negligent with foreign dubs of DB back then. I once tried asking Richard Kilgarriff (who was previously in charge of CNX and other Turner channels back in 2002) but he didn't have any answers and, to be honest, after this many years I doubt anyone involved at the time even remembers. If I had to guess it was probably either AB Groupe and Ocean experiencing delays or Turner US lending episodes of the Funi dub to the UK division until Ocean's were made available.

Also, I'm still not too sure why Ocean added those sound effects to the Funi in-house episodes. You mention they might have done so for a more "polished" product, but why do something that doesn't need to be done in the first place, as there were already adequate sound effects present (to me, the ones shown in Arian's clips sounded shoe-horned in, and inappropriately-placed [...] I still think Ocean was adding these sound effects in to try to get some Cancon points for the program on YTV.

I don't think it had anything to do with Cancon. Ocean typically adds additional sound effects to their kids anime dubs, it's nothing new or exclusive to Dragon Ball.

I've also already shown that Funimation themselves were in favour of the practice and attempted to do it in their own in-house dub. No one had a problem with it.

Just curious, do you think Cancon played into the production of the "Westwood" (or whatever we want to call it) dub, Nitro?

I personally don't think so. As others have mentioned, it premiered in Europe a long time before it aired in Canada so it clearly wasn't made for Canadian TV, at least not at first.

Actually it wasn’t Funimation who added those extra SFX to their dub. It was Faulconer Productions themselves who added them, as Scott Morgan pretty much confirmed himself in this reply to a post here. Only show that Funimation themselves added extra SFX to was OG Dragon Ball, and even then it was for one scene in their in-house dub (two, counting the edited version).

Fun Fact: Some of the added SFX added for the Funi dub by Faulconer were in fact the original Japanese SFX taken and repurposed for other scenes, such as here (at 2:50), here & here (at 1:25).

Also, to respond to something in your previous post, it’s definitely possible for Ocean to be the ones responsible for altering the music for the YTV broadcast. Especially because they already had access to the music track for each episode. Remember, the thing to keep in mind is that music done early on during the Ginyu episodes was specifically composed to-scene, and it wasn’t until episode 74 that it tracks were beginning to be reused. This means that, in essence, the early Ginyu episodes were in fact the full music tracks Ocean used. And since all the music that was used for the alterations were from those early episodes (and in the case of “Incredible Force”, it was taken from the Uncut version of the episode), I see no room for doubt that Ocean were the ones responsible for the altered soundtrack for the YTV broadcast.

[JohnnyCashKami]

I wasn't aware that Toei Europe wasn't around until 2004, so now I'm wondering who sent the tapes to the UK and what led to the switching off between the Ocean and Funimation dub for the Buu saga? Was it Canada and America, Toei in Japan, or even the AB Groupe somehow?

AB were distributing it to the UK. As for the dub switch, no one really knows for sure but I don't think Toei had anything to do with it, they were very negligent with foreign dubs of DB back then. I once tried asking Richard Kilgarriff (who was previously in charge of CNX and other Turner channels back in 2002) but he didn't have any answers and, to be honest, after this many years I doubt anyone involved at the time even remembers. If I had to guess it was probably either AB Groupe and Ocean experiencing delays or Turner US lending episodes of the Funi dub to the UK division until Ocean's were made available.

Also, I'm still not too sure why Ocean added those sound effects to the Funi in-house episodes. You mention they might have done so for a more "polished" product, but why do something that doesn't need to be done in the first place, as there were already adequate sound effects present (to me, the ones shown in Arian's clips sounded shoe-horned in, and inappropriately-placed [...] I still think Ocean was adding these sound effects in to try to get some Cancon points for the program on YTV.

I don't think it had anything to do with Cancon. Ocean typically adds additional sound effects to their kids anime dubs, it's nothing new or exclusive to Dragon Ball.

I've also already shown that Funimation themselves were in favour of the practice and attempted to do it in their own in-house dub. No one had a problem with it.

Just curious, do you think Cancon played into the production of the "Westwood" (or whatever we want to call it) dub, Nitro?

I personally don't think so. As others have mentioned, it premiered in Europe a long time before it aired in Canada so it clearly wasn't made for Canadian TV, at least not at first.

"Premiered in Europe"

You make it sound like it aired in every European country.

By that logic, you might go ahead and also say "it premiered in the Americas."

[NitroEX]

Actually it wasn’t Funimation who added those extra SFX to their dub. It was Faulconer Productions themselves who added them, as Scott Morgan pretty much confirmed himself in this reply to a post here. Only show that Funimation themselves added extra SFX to was OG Dragon Ball, and even then it was for one scene in their in-house dub (two, counting the edited version).

Funimation still would have approved or given the order to add those sounds in, it was their decision at the end of the day. Faulconer Productions wouldn't have been given complete creative control to do whatever they wanted with the show.

Also, to respond to something in your previous post, it’s definitely possible for Ocean to be the ones responsible for altering the music for the YTV broadcast. Especially because they already had access to the music track for each episode. Remember, the thing to keep in mind is that music done early on during the Ginyu episodes was specifically composed to-scene, and it wasn’t until episode 74 that it tracks were beginning to be reused. This means that, in essence, the early Ginyu episodes were in fact the full music tracks Ocean used. And since all the music that was used for the alterations were from those early episodes (and in the case of “Incredible Force”, it was taken from the Uncut version of the episode), I see no room for doubt that Ocean were the ones responsible for the altered soundtrack for the YTV broadcast.

Makes sense.

"Premiered in Europe"

You make it sound like it aired in every European country.

Strange thing to nitpick. We all know the dub aired in English speaking parts of Europe and can infer what I meant here.

[Tian]

"Premiered in Europe"

You make it sound like it aired in every European country.

Strange thing to nitpick. We all know the dub aired in English speaking parts of Europe and can infer what I meant here.

I think you don't know or forgot that the Ocean dub was also aired in Netherlands with Dutch subtitles. So yeah, It was not only released in the English speaking parts of Europe.
https://youtu.be/nGMDAKn_8Js

[linkdude20002001]

"Premiered in Europe"

You make it sound like it aired in every European country.

By that logic, you might go ahead and also say "it premiered in the Americas."

What Tian said, but also...
Saying "it premierd in the Americas" would be more like saying "it premierd in Europe or Africa or Asia".

[NitroEX]

"Premiered in Europe"

You make it sound like it aired in every European country.

Strange thing to nitpick. We all know the dub aired in English speaking parts of Europe and can infer what I meant here.

I think you don't know or forgot that the Ocean dub was also aired in Netherlands with Dutch subtitles. So yeah, It was not only released in the English speaking parts of Europe.
https://youtu.be/nGMDAKn_8Js

Dude, get off your high horse... I didn't forget, I just didn't think you guys needed to have everything spelled out for you. Most of you seem pretty knowledgable about these dubs so I thought I could save some time by not writing every country it aired in outside of Canada (which gets pretty tedious at times) and just say Europe. Obviously I won't make that mistake again, knowing how pedantic you all are.

[Tian]

Dude, get off your high horse... I didn't forget, I just didn't think you guys needed to have everything spelled out for you. Most of you seem pretty knowledgable about these dubs so I thought I could save some time by not writing every country it aired in outside of Canada (which gets pretty tedious at times) and just say Europe. Obviously I won't make that mistake again, knowing how pedantic you all are.

First off, I apologize if that sounded a bit condescending. I really didn't mean to do that when I was writing it.

Second, it's something you can expect from Dragon Ball. Dubs airing everywhere, not just for a specific whatever language market. For example, The Latin Spanish dub of Z could not only be watched in Latin America and Mexico but in the U.S and Romania (with the Romanian voices on top) as well, and those aren't Spanish speaking markets. For U.S, I mean the Ultimate Uncut releases, not Telemundo (which aired the series for a while) because it was part of a Spanish language market.

[TheBlackPaladin]

For example, The Latin Spanish dub of Z could not only be watched in Latin America and Mexico but in the U.S and Romania (with the Romanian voices on top) as well, and those aren't Spanish speaking markets.

...I...huh. I'm not even going to pretend to understand the business mechanics that made that deal come to pass.

[Danfun64]

Which deal? Cause the Latino Spanish dub airing in the US isn't that surprising, considering that Latinos are a significant minority in the country.

As for Romania dubbing over the Latino Spanish dub...I'm a little confused on that front. I've heard that the Romanian airings voiced over the Japanese in some areas and the Latino Spanish in others (Apparently We Gotta Power was also involved somehow, though I don't know if the Boo saga was covered.) You'd think Romania would have imported from one of the dubs that were closer, using either the Italian dub or one of the AB Groupe sourced dubs (like the German dub, the Hungarian dub, or (lol) the old Serbian dub)

[TheBlackPaladin]

Which deal? Cause the Latino Spanish dub airing in the US isn't that surprising, considering that Latinos are a significant minority in the country.

As for Romania dubbing over the Latino Spanish dub...

That deal. I believe you when you say it happened, don't get me wrong, I'm just perplexed as hell over why they would do that. Like you said, it seems like it would have made infinitely more sense to either import directly from Japan or, barring that for budgetary reasons, import from one of the nearby European countries and do a "second-hand" dub. Heck, most of the European dubs are based on the French dub.

[Tian]

That deal. I believe you when you say it happened, don't get me wrong, I'm just perplexed as hell over why they would do that. Like you said, it seems like it would have made infinitely more sense to either import directly from Japan or, barring that for budgetary reasons, import from one of the nearby European countries and do a "second-hand" dub. Heck, most of the European dubs are based on the French dub.

Well, they used Japanese version but only until Freeza Saga. In the Android Saga, they switched to the Latin Spanish dub for unknown reasons.

My theory is that TVR1 (the Romanian channel who aired the voice-over) was cutting corners at that time, so they decided to stop importing from Japan and look for a cheaper source.

Maybe the Latin Spanish dub was the cheapest they could find or they weren't interested into getting the French AB dub as source.

Fun Fact : Another dub that could be seen in Romania was the German dub thanks to the presence of RTL II in the country.

[8000 Saiyan]

It always makes me facepalm that Funimation had the nerve to fire a bunch of veterans to only replace them with a bunch of nobodies because they were cheaper. It clearly shows that Funimation wasn't the best company to handle Dragon Ball. When you hire nobodies to dub over a show that was composed of experienced voice actors in its original language, that feels like a fucking insult. I'm not asking to hire live-action actors to dub over, but people with some acting skills instead of none.

And worst of all, Funimation only got the rights because of nepotism. Viz would have been a much better option.

Honestly, I'm glad Funi got the rights. Without them we probably wouldn't have gotten this huge number of different English dubs, including the Westwood/Blue Water/Big Green dubs which were created as a reaction against them.

Good that you think that way because in my honest opinion, I'd rather not sell the rights of a very popular franchise to a company that hires amateurs. Those amateurs did improve and are now professionals, but I don't have the patience to wait a decade for them to get good at acting.

[WittyUsername]

It always makes me facepalm that Funimation had the nerve to fire a bunch of veterans to only replace them with a bunch of nobodies because they were cheaper. It clearly shows that Funimation wasn't the best company to handle Dragon Ball. When you hire nobodies to dub over a show that was composed of experienced voice actors in its original language, that feels like a fucking insult. I'm not asking to hire live-action actors to dub over, but people with some acting skills instead of none.

And worst of all, Funimation only got the rights because of nepotism. Viz would have been a much better option.

Honestly, I'm glad Funi got the rights. Without them we probably wouldn't have gotten this huge number of different English dubs, including the Westwood/Blue Water/Big Green dubs which were created as a reaction against them.

Good that you think that way because in my honest opinion, I'd rather not sell the rights of a very popular franchise to a company that hires amateurs. Those amateurs did improve and are now professionals, but I don't have the patience to wait a decade for them to get good at acting.

Wasn’t FUNimation no longer able to afford the Ocean voice cast after they parted ways with Saban? I thought they had no choice but to hire a bunch of nobodies?