Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

[TheGreatness25]

That's exactly my point. Even if they have to rain a storm of liquid shits on the old dub, at least they should have the decency to say this feeling is by way of hindsight. Don't throw out statements like, "I always hated it" because then they're full of shit.

Robo4900, I 100% agree. I think that despite anything, none of Funimation's work holds up to those first 53 (was it?) episodes of the series that Ocean worked on. I'm not talking about accuracy or faithfulness to the source material, I'm talking pure delivery and acting. Even with all of the trials and tribulations that the Ocean version of the later Z episodes had, when I actually watch it (like I've been doing recently), it's really good. There is a lot wrong with that dub, but I think that guys like Brian Drummond, Scott McNeil, and others, are phenomenal.

I fell victim to this myself, but I would watch little clips on YouTube of the Ocean dub and go, "Oh man, what the hell happened?" But I went and actually watched a fair amount of those episodes in their entirety lately and they're pretty enjoyable. Yeah, there's a lot wrong, but I wouldn't say that it's worse than what Funimation did to the series (except for the music). I have absolutely no doubt that if Ocean's Kai dub got released, that they'd knock it out of the park... if they brought their A-game. If they had the right direction and the series was meant to be close to the original (same music, dialog, etc.), I know that dub would be killer.

[Robo4900]

That's exactly my point. Even if they have to rain a storm of liquid shits on the old dub, at least they should have the decency to say this feeling is by way of hindsight. Don't throw out statements like, "I always hated it" because then they're full of shit.

Robo4900, I 100% agree. I think that despite anything, none of Funimation's work holds up to those first 53 (was it?) episodes of the series that Ocean worked on. I'm not talking about accuracy or faithfulness to the source material, I'm talking pure delivery and acting. Even with all of the trials and tribulations that the Ocean version of the later Z episodes had, when I actually watch it (like I've been doing recently), it's really good. There is a lot wrong with that dub, but I think that guys like Brian Drummond, Scott McNeil, and others, are phenomenal.

I fell victim to this myself, but I would watch little clips on YouTube of the Ocean dub and go, "Oh man, what the hell happened?" But I went and actually watched a fair amount of those episodes in their entirety lately and they're pretty enjoyable. Yeah, there's a lot wrong, but I wouldn't say that it's worse than what Funimation did to the series (except for the music). I have absolutely no doubt that if Ocean's Kai dub got released, that they'd knock it out of the park... if they brought their A-game. If they had the right direction and the series was meant to be close to the original (same music, dialog, etc.), I know that dub would be killer.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Looks like I missed some stuff, so let me just quickly respond to some of that too...

Scsigs has a point that people change their minds over time. I remember that back in the old days, everyone liked X-Men and Spider-Man TAS. Now, the opinion on those two shows is either mixed. There are those people that will accuse people who like those shows for their nostalgia. Personally, I still like those shows despite their flaws.

Spider-Man TAS is one of my favourite TV shows of all time, and is still my favourite version of Spider-Man out there. Aside from the at times rather wonky animation, I've never understood any of the criticisms with the show.
But really, in Spider-Man's case, I think it still has a rather significant fan following. Not sure about X-Men.

To tie this in with the Ocean dub of Kai -- why does Sean Schemmel have to insert his opinion in the first place? Obviously there's a fanbase that wants to see that dub. If it turns out terrible, then it turns out terrible. But don't stick your two cents into it because, again, you're pissing on someone. There is no need for that. Just say, "Wow, really? They're doing their own? That should be interesting compared to ours!" But no, you have to go and put your opinion out there... if he was referring to Ocean Kai. So basically, I'm trying to say that this is a business where every single version of something will have its fans. It's okay to be political about it and let fans pick and choose what they want to enjoy without telling them your opinions on all of it -- opinions that are actually unsupported, by the way (since he hasn't seen it).

Agreed 100%. I find Sean Schemmel very interesting, and I do have a lot of respect for him, but reading him crapping all over the Ocean dub based on some early work that probably just amounted to some test footage and a couple of pieces of music, it does make me question what goes through his head sometimes.

[8000 Saiyan]

Anyway, this is about the Ocean dub. I want to see this happen. I really like the Ocean cast and even though as the series moved on and the newer work got more and more sloppy as the old-school actors started dropping off, I think that it had a ton of potential. I still think it does. The Ocean dub is a huge curiosity and I think that it would be great if they pulled the trigger on a release. And I don't know how Canadian and U.K. fans feel about this, but I'd imagine that since they saw all three series having different voices than Funimation's cast, I would imagine that they'd have a soft spot for a well-made Ocean dub.

As a UK fan, here's my opinion: Funimation's cast is a poor impression of Ocean's cast which got better over time. As they are now, I think they're perfectly fine, but IMO really don't stand up to Ocean at their best. So if Ocean Kai is Ocean at their best, I have no doubt it will be more enjoyable for me than Funimation's Kai dub.

If Ocean plays its cards well, then they could outdo Funimation's Kai dub. I hope they don't disappoint with their new voice of Cell. If Paul Dobson plays him (which is what I hope), then I could see him doing better than Clarke. Dobson has one of the best villain voices of all time.

Scsigs has a point that people change their minds over time. I remember that back in the old days, everyone liked X-Men and Spider-Man TAS. Now, the opinion on those two shows is either mixed. There are those people that will accuse people who like those shows for their nostalgia. Personally, I still like those shows despite their flaws.

Spider-Man TAS is one of my favourite TV shows of all time, and is still my favourite version of Spider-Man out there. Aside from the at times rather wonky animation, I've never understood any of the criticisms with the show.
But really, in Spider-Man's case, I think it still has a rather significant fan following. Not sure about X-Men.

The censorship gets criticized a lot. You know, Spidey almost never got the chance to punch his enemies. Some of the voices are also criticized, such as Harry and Mary Jane's. Personally, I don't think the Spectacular voices for Harry and Mary Jane are any better.

X-Men TAS does still have a significant fan following on Twitter IIRC.

[Robo4900]

If Ocean plays its cards well, then they could outdo Funimation's Kai dub. I hope they don't disappoint with their new voice of Cell. If Paul Dobson plays him (which is what I hope), then I could see him doing better than Clarke. Dobson has one of the best villain voices of all time.

Honestly, if he was better directed, I think Dale Wilson could still make a really kick-ass Cell, but if they want to recast him, that's fine.
The Dobson brothers always knocked it out of the park, so sure, Paul could probably do a cool Cell.

The censorship gets criticized a lot. You know, Spidey almost never got the chance to punch his enemies. Some of the voices are also criticized, such as Harry and Mary Jane's.

X-Men TAS does still have a significant fan following on Twitter IIRC.

I always loved those voices, so I guess that's just an opinions thing. As for the censorship, it was never that bad; everyone used high-tech laser guns, so basically it had a kid-friendly skin over the top of it, but the threat of death and everything was still played fairly straight, despite them never really using the actual words(Death, dead, kill, etc.), which was a common thing for '90s cartoons.

[8000 Saiyan]

If Ocean plays its cards well, then they could outdo Funimation's Kai dub. I hope they don't disappoint with their new voice of Cell. If Paul Dobson plays him (which is what I hope), then I could see him doing better than Clarke. Dobson has one of the best villain voices of all time.

Honestly, if he was better directed, I think Dale Wilson could still make a really kick-ass Cell, but if they want to recast him, that's fine.
The Dobson brothers always knocked it out of the park, so sure, Paul could probably do a cool Cell.

The censorship gets criticized a lot. You know, Spidey almost never got the chance to punch his enemies. Some of the voices are also criticized, such as Harry and Mary Jane's.

X-Men TAS does still have a significant fan following on Twitter IIRC.

I always loved those voices, so I guess that's just an opinions thing. As for the censorship, it was never that bad; everyone used high-tech laser guns, so basically it had a kid-friendly skin over the top of it, but the threat of death and everything was still played fairly straight, despite them never really using the actual words(Death, dead, kill, etc.), which was a common thing for '90s cartoons.

I agree that Wilson could do better if he had better direction, but I think Ocean did good in recasting him. I imagine that his detractors wouldn't give him the chance if he had announced that he would reprise Cell. If David Kaye was still working in Vancouver he could pull off Perfect Cell and even King Cold.

[Robo4900]

I agree that Wilson could do better if he had better direction, but I think Ocean did good in recasting him. I imagine that his detractors wouldn't give him the chance if he had announced that he would reprise Cell. If David Kaye was still working in Vancouver he could pull off Perfect Cell and even King Cold.

Indeed.

Apparently, Recoome's been recast(Rumours point to Michael Daingerfield), so I imagine David Kaye is probably out of the picture.

Actually, that reminds me... Does anyone have a complete list of the currently suspected cast listing?

[8000 Saiyan]

I agree that Wilson could do better if he had better direction, but I think Ocean did good in recasting him. I imagine that his detractors wouldn't give him the chance if he had announced that he would reprise Cell. If David Kaye was still working in Vancouver he could pull off Perfect Cell and even King Cold.

Indeed.

Apparently, Recoome's been recast(Rumours point to Michael Daingerfield), so I imagine David Kaye is probably out of the picture.

Actually, that reminds me... Does anyone have a complete list of the currently suspected cast listing?

Where did you find those rumors? I don't really find Daingerfield to be a good fit for Recoome. Someone like Mark Gibbon, Brian Dobson or Colin Murdock would do far better.

No, but there were rumors that Sam Vincent is Krillin and Kirby Morrow is Trunks.

[Robo4900]

Where did you find those rumors? I don't really find Daingerfield to be a good fit for Recoome. Someone like Mark Gibbon, Brian Dobson or Colin Murdock would do far better.

Can't remember. As I say, just rumours for now.

No, but there were rumors that Sam Vincent is Krillin and Kirby Morrow is Trunks.

I'd heard they were keeping Klassen as Krillin. I think Morrow would make a good Trunks, though.

[8000 Saiyan]

Where did you find those rumors? I don't really find Daingerfield to be a good fit for Recoome. Someone like Mark Gibbon, Brian Dobson or Colin Murdock would do far better.

Can't remember. As I say, just rumours for now.

No, but there were rumors that Sam Vincent is Krillin and Kirby Morrow is Trunks.

I'd heard they were keeping Klassen as Krillin. I think Morrow would make a good Trunks, though.

Oh, boy, I hope Klassen doesn't sound that annoying like he did in the Westwood dub if they kept him.

[TheGreatness25]

I really like Klassen as "Krillin" because it would be nice and consistent -- from episode 1 all the way through. I liked Kirby Morrow as Goku... in fact, I think he was better than Peter Kelamis. He totally would make a great Trunks, though. I was not a fan of Ocean Trunks at all. I think Eric Vale was a good Trunks up until Xenoverse came out and every time he spoke through the controller speaker, I actually wanted to toss my controller.

[8000 Saiyan]

I really like Klassen as "Krillin" because it would be nice and consistent -- from episode 1 all the way through. I liked Kirby Morrow as Goku... in fact, I think he was better than Peter Kelamis. He totally would make a great Trunks, though. I was not a fan of Ocean Trunks at all. I think Eric Vale was a good Trunks up until Xenoverse came out and every time he spoke through the controller speaker, I actually wanted to toss my controller.

Vale's Trunks is a mixed bag to me. He had the right voice for Z and the right acting for Kai. If he combined those two, then he'll be truly great in the role.

[KingofWisdom]

Either this dub's existence was a troll attempt or this dub will simply never see the light of day.

[8000 Saiyan]

Either this dub's existence was a troll attempt or this dub will simply never see the light of day.

This dub DOES exist, we just haven't seen it yet. Kirby Morrow, Lee Tockar and Scott McNeil have confirmed its existence. Or do you want a piece of footage from the dub to prove it that does exist?

[TheGreatness25]

I Tweeted Brian Drummond about being my idea of the true Vegeta after taking a trip down Nostalgia Drive watching the Ocean dub and passingly asked about Kai and his response was, "Awww... Thanks. We did #Kai ...in some heavily guarded sealed vault probably.!? #dbz"

Looks like they did Kai and it's just sitting there somewhere. Somewhat of a strange move considering that someone paid money to have these actors work on it, not to mention everyone else who was involved. I just feel like the people who had the idea to do it would test the waters to see if a market exists before investing into the project.

[8000 Saiyan]

I Tweeted Brian Drummond about being my idea of the true Vegeta after taking a trip down Nostalgia Drive watching the Ocean dub and passingly asked about Kai and his response was, "Awww... Thanks. We did #Kai ...in some heavily guarded sealed vault probably.!? #dbz"

Looks like they did Kai and it's just sitting there somewhere. Somewhat of a strange move considering that someone paid money to have these actors work on it, not to mention everyone else who was involved. I just feel like the people who had the idea to do it would test the waters to see if a market exists before investing into the project.

They should have had secured a TV deal with a Canadian network when they had the chance.

I always loved those voices, so I guess that's just an opinions thing. As for the censorship, it was never that bad; everyone used high-tech laser guns, so basically it had a kid-friendly skin over the top of it, but the threat of death and everything was still played fairly straight, despite them never really using the actual words(Death, dead, kill, etc.), which was a common thing for '90s cartoons.

I remember the characters saying the word kill.

Oh, and other criticisms I found were the overuse of Kingpin and the often confusing storylines.

[Robo4900]

They should have had secured a TV deal with a Canadian network when they had the chance.

I think that was the idea.

I remember the characters saying the word kill.

Oh, and other criticisms I found were the overuse of Kingpin and the often confusing storylines.

The kill think proves my point, then.

Overuse of Kingpin sounds like a pretty lame criticism. As for the storylines, I could perfectly understand them at the age of 6, and I missed a lot of episodes from the early seasons in my initial watch-through, so I don't see how anyone could find them confusing.

[TheGreatness25]

I don't know about you all, but I loved Spider-Man The Animated Series. Just like X-Men, it covered a lot of ground for a relatively short series. In just five seasons, the series really felt like you were watching a never-ending growth of the character. The story was pretty connected and didn't really have any moments that felt random.

Of course, it sucks that their SWAT/ESU looked like Power Rangers who fired laser beams, and the animation was give or take, but I really enjoyed it. Was Spider-Man more grown-up badass sounding than teenager? Yeah (I especially remember him yelling out, "Mary Jane!" when it turned out that she was a clone who was dying), but it was still pretty damn good. Of course when it comes to 90's cartoons, I think Batman kills them all, but they were completely different shows.

Fun Fact: Shuki Levy did the music for Spider-Man The Animated Series... and Dragon Ball Z (the original Ocean run, including "Rock the Dragon").

[8000 Saiyan]

I don't know about you all, but I loved Spider-Man The Animated Series. Just like X-Men, it covered a lot of ground for a relatively short series. In just five seasons, the series really felt like you were watching a never-ending growth of the character. The story was pretty connected and didn't really have any moments that felt random.

Of course, it sucks that their SWAT/ESU looked like Power Rangers who fired laser beams, and the animation was give or take, but I really enjoyed it. Was Spider-Man more grown-up badass sounding than teenager? Yeah (I especially remember him yelling out, "Mary Jane!" when it turned out that she was a clone who was dying), but it was still pretty damn good. Of course when it comes to 90's cartoons, I think Batman kills them all, but they were completely different shows.

Fun Fact: Shuki Levy did the music for Spider-Man The Animated Series... and Dragon Ball Z (the original Ocean run, including "Rock the Dragon").

Yeah, despite some flaws I still enjoy Spider-Man TAS. To this day, I still prefer CDB and Rino Romano to Josh Keaton, whose performance I always found overhyped.

This show, along with the PS1 games made me the Spidey fan I am today.

[Robo4900]

Josh Keaton was the one from Spectacular Spider-Man, right?

I think Christopher Daniel Barnes will always be Spider-Man for me; my connection to the '90s show runs too deep for anything in that show to ever be replaced, but I thought Josh Keaton did a great job. If Spectacular had been given a longer run, I think it would have had the potential to be a better overall experience than the '90s one. But as it is, since the '90s run was able to actually have a full run, and finish its story, I personally prefer it.

This show, along with the PS1 games made me the Spidey fan I am today.

I never played the PS1 game, but yeah, basically this show made me a fan.

Fun Fact: Shuki Levy did the music for Spider-Man The Animated Series... and Dragon Ball Z (the original Ocean run, including "Rock the Dragon").

That guy basically wrote the soundtrack to my childhood... Spider-Man, Dragon Ball, Power Rangers, X-Men, Inspector Gadget, Digimon... The list goes on.

Perhaps we should open a new thread to talk about this.

[NitroEX]

Fun Fact: Shuki Levy did the music for Spider-Man The Animated Series... and Dragon Ball Z (the original Ocean run, including "Rock the Dragon").

I think Shuki Levy gets more credit than he should for DBZ, to be honest.

He's credited in a lot of Saban shows as he seems to have been their main in-house musician but he didn't seem to do as much music for DBZ as you might think. Ron Wasserman (musician on Mighty Morphin Power Rangers & X-Men '92) has stated in this interview that he worked on the early DBZ music in his apartment alone and with no input from Saban, specifically; "It was after I left Saban, and they just go, “Hey do you want to score this thing? We’ll just pay you per episode, you can do it at home and just do whatever you want.” So, I’m sitting with my Mac, I think it was an LC-3 that’s got a disk drive, those hard-floppy drives. I remember I just scored midi, and I had two small speakers. I remember sitting in front of my 27 inch tube television and scoring that thing in the living room of the apartment I was living in at the time, and just getting these massive, dark, ethereal, building sounds. I would deliver it and they would go like, “Cool, we’ll have another one for you in a week.” I mean there was never a single note, I don’t think they ever watched anything I did, I think they just mixed it and delivered it. I never even knew the show was big until a couple years ago. I loved the show and when it got yanked from Saban, I asked Funimation if I could still score the show, but no response. Nothing. That was a shame, but I had a blast! That crazy ass fighting animation, I loved it!"

He even goes as far as to say "they [Saban] didn’t give a damn about the show" and If you take a look on Levy's website he seems to mostly take credit for intros and opening songs. I suspect the "Rock the Dragon" opening might've been the extent of Levy's involvement in DBZ, to be honest, and that would be as a writer/composer, not the performer. Ron Wasserman and Jeremy Sweet were supposedly the uncredited musicians behind that intro as well.

In regards to the Spider-Man '94 cartoon, Udi Harpaz was the orchestrator/conductor of the music while Levy seems to have only written the music (Udi does not take credit as the composer). If you pay close attention to the of music in Spider-Man it's very close in both style and instrumentation to the Digimon US score, both of those were Udi Harpaz doing the music although, like I said, Levy probably at least wrote the music for Spider-Man but Udi takes full credit for composing the Digimon tracks. The intro for Spider-Man, was performed by Joe Perry who was the lead guitarist and occasional lead singer of Aerosmith. Levy might've written it and the lyrics but I doubt it was any more than that.

Something else worth mentioning is what Ron Wasserman said in this interview about his work on the '92 X-Men cartoon. He says "One of the things Saban did was isolate me. They isolated us intentionally from the network because you talk to them and then they go, “Hey, we have this other show,” which leads to you getting the gig. Saban was incredibly protective, holding on to their property and talent so nobody else would. In my four years of scoring [for ''X-Men'], I never met a single network person or producer outside of the Saban corral." The interviewer even finds this surprising to which Ron replies "I think this might be specific to Saban because I have a friend who scored Baywatch and 90210, and he was going to sets and talking to whoever was directing. That’s how it’s normally done. But Saban, everybody was “work for hires” where they’re taking a majority of your rights. I knew this going in. It was paid college for me, and it gave me a huge break and I wouldn’t have the career without it. But they kept tight reins, like the old studio days, people signed under exclusive contracts and kept on the lot. I left in ‘95. I said, “I’d like a fair deal and a contract.” I had written X-Men, Sweet Valley High, VR Troopers, and of course Power Rangers. They said, “No, your position stays.” So I left."

It seems that this is likely the reason Shuki Levy got as much credit as he did as well as the reason so many “work for hires” went uncredited. Saban didn't want their smaller musicians getting snatched away by rival studios.

I still prefer CDB and Rino Romano to Josh Keaton, whose performance I always found overhyped.

This show, along with the PS1 games made me the Spidey fan I am today.

Rino Romano was also Spider-Man in the Spider-Man: Unlimited cartoon from 1999. That show contained quite a few Ocean voice actors funnily enough, including Brian Drummond as Venom.