Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series?

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
dbboxkaifan
Banned
Posts: 8906
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:32 pm

Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series?

Post by dbboxkaifan » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:49 pm

Dragon Ball is Toei's cashcow and as such it's sad to see they decided to make a low budget series rather than going out and producing an entirely new animated show (which the OP/EDs made me wish for) still I'll thank them for using the original cast which still remains as well as Yamamoto's score for the time it remained.

So why did Toei decided to cheapen their way out of making what everyone was hoping that Kai would be?

Just take a look at these reanimated bits of Dragon Ball | Dragon Ball Z from Battle of Gods: https://www.flickr.com/photos/65846913@ ... 763946525/
FUNimation 2015 Releases I want:
- Kai 2.0 on Blu-ray

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1926
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by Valerius Dover » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:10 pm

I'd imagine it was probably money. Unlike FullMetal Alchemist and Sailor Moon, the anime adaptation here is already very close to the manga, just with stuff added. So, they simply take out the extra stuff and call it a day. It was done to save money.

I certainly would've preferred a full-on remake, but I'm happy with this as it is. However, it can not call itself manga accurate as long as it skips over Goku's childhood.
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:16 pm

When did they cop-out on making a new animated seriest? I don't think they ever did cop-out, because a new animated series never seemed to be their goal.

Toei never said they were going to do a new animated series. From the day they announced Kai, they pretty much laid out exactly what it was going to be...which is the main reason I have never really been excited about Kai outside of the dub. It turned out exactly like I thought it would based on their own description of the show, if not a tad worse. I mean, let's be honest...on the surface, they said that they were making Kai so that they could make an anime series more faithful to the manga, but that's not the real reason behind Kai's production. The real reason, even if Toei isn't saying it, is that they wanted money, and Kai was the cheapest way to bring back a hit show on TV and disguise it as something new.

On top of that, Toei is notorious for often taking the cheap route. That, combined with declining anime sales due to piracy, pretty much ensured that Kai was never going to be a high-budget production.

Of course, this does make me curious why they decided to re-animate Sailor Moon (a la Sailor Moon Crystal) and order a re-dub of the existing 200-episode series using a cast of union actors (which is just about as far away from cheap as you can get)...but that's in another thread.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1926
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by Valerius Dover » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:21 pm

^Well, from what I understand, the Kai treatment wouldn't work with Sailor Moon due to how far it strays from the manga. And it needed a redub, while DB didn't, since it already has an uncut dub.
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:35 pm

Valerius Dover wrote:^Well, from what I understand, the Kai treatment wouldn't work with Sailor Moon due to how far it strays from the manga. And it needed a redub, while DB didn't, since it already has an uncut dub.
OK, well yeah, I can understand the "strayed too much from the manga" issue. Still, I'm surprised at the redub...it didn't technically need a redub. I and many others wanted a redub, yes, but I'm surprised that the companies involved didn't just buy the rights to the pre-existing releases, as that would have been much cheaper. And even if they did deem a redub necessary, I'm surprised they agreed to a union dub in Los Angeles* and not a non-union dub in, well...Dallas (a Viz official said that there were a lot of companies competing for the rights to Sailor Moon before they got it, and I'd be shocked if FUNimation didn't make an offer). So I'm shocked that they went that route when they've been notoriously cheap with other properties, even five-star properties like Dragon Ball.

*...but, as a union actor living in Los Angeles who would love to have even a small part in that dub, I'm not complaining! :D

Anyway. I'll try to not bring up Sailor Moon since there's already a thread for that, but it certainly is very hard to ignore that show when talking about how Toei decides to allocate their budgets...it appears that even a cash cow like Dragon Ball may not necessarily warrant the same budget and treatment that Sailor Moon does, and that's odd considering that Dragon Ball seems to have a bit more longevity and financial reliability than Sailor Moon.
Last edited by TheBlackPaladin on Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

kei17
I Live Here
Posts: 4142
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:23 am

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by kei17 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:36 pm

They just want to milk the franchise with minimum budget and effort. [/thread]

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:40 pm

kei17 wrote:They just want to milk the franchise with minimum budget and effort. [/thread]
Well, if I may, I have a question that anybody should feel free to answer. Based on Toei's description of Kai before it even came out, I pretty much saw what was coming. I say "pretty much," because certain things happened that I certainly didn't anticipate (like the music scandal), but for the most part, Toei's own description of the show struck me as just how Kei described it--a milking of the franchise with as little budget and effort involved as possible. So when the negative comments about Kai and its low budget were appearing, I can honestly say I wasn't surprised.

So, my question...did anybody else see this coming?
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by Doctor. » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:51 pm

I only want a new animated series if they do it properly. The beams and Kaioken in the Battle of Gods series recap looked terrible.

User avatar
El Diabeetus
I Live Here
Posts: 2138
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:07 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by El Diabeetus » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:18 pm

In the event that DB has a reanimated series, I hope Kei works at Toei, haha. Would have him just be general Quality control/or music placement at least.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:09 pm

Why did Fuji TV agree to broadcast and co-fund Dragon Ball Kai? Why did Shueisha agree to allow the series to be created? Why did Bandai, the major merchandising partner, make no big stink regarding the basis of the series that essentially guaranteed there would be no new characters to make new merchandise based on?

Toei Animation is not the only culpable offender here.
She/HerπŸ’• πŸ’œ πŸ’™
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
EXBadguy
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: NJ, 'MERICA

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by EXBadguy » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:46 pm

Yall really hate Kai that much? Alright, right now it sucks because they're messing with a lot of stuff(after all, the Buu saga is the "curse" of Z). But when it first aired during the 2009-11 timeline, things were golden. Besides, some of the new animations aren't even that good IMO. Sailor Moon Crystal for example, and you guys wanted that shit? No thanks. As bad Kai is now, I'd take THAT over Crystal any day. Besides, it's much cleaner than Z too, so what's with all the fuss?

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
kei17 wrote:They just want to milk the franchise with minimum budget and effort. [/thread]
Well, if I may, I have a question that anybody should feel free to answer. Based on Toei's description of Kai before it even came out, I pretty much saw what was coming. I say "pretty much," because certain things happened that I certainly didn't anticipate (like the music scandal), but for the most part, Toei's own description of the show struck me as just how Kei described it--a milking of the franchise with as little budget and effort involved as possible. So when the negative comments about Kai and its low budget were appearing, I can honestly say I wasn't surprised.

So, my question...did anybody else see this coming?
Is there any proof that they were trying so little? And I mean during the first run, not now. Now I see the flaws in THIS Kai, but the first part of Kai (Saiyan-Cell) was perfect IMO. I think they were trying hard in the first run, but just not hard enough. Besides, it only lost 10 percent on the ratings. (Z average- 20%, Kai Average- 9.5-10%).
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:01 am

EXBadguy wrote:Yall really hate Kai that much? Alright, right now it sucks because they're messing with a lot of stuff(after all, the Buu saga is the "curse" of Z). But when it first aired during the 2009-11 timeline, things were golden.
No, Dragon Ball Kai has always suffered from poor placement of music, poor casting, uninspired performances, and ill-paced and edited episodes.
Besides, some of the new animations aren't even that good IMO. Sailor Moon Crystal for example, and you guys wanted that shit? No thanks. As bad Kai is now, I'd take THAT over Crystal any day. Besides, it's much cleaner than Z too, so what's with all the fuss?
I don't understand why you are assuming those with opposing opinions suddenly want something so terrible. People want a well produced series with intelligent writing, directing, music, acting and use of resources and time. Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon Crystal is none of that. Heck, Disk Wars: Avengers (which is essentially a Dragon Ball series anyway) is the bare minimum with what one should be able to expect from the production committee members for their massive global intellectual property.

Thinking back on it, Hatano Morio or Koga Tsuyoshi would make for great Dragon Ball directors. It's a shame they haven't touched the franchise, their directing for Disk Wars: Avengers keeps each of their episodes a lot of fun to watch.
She/HerπŸ’• πŸ’œ πŸ’™
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
EXBadguy
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: NJ, 'MERICA

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by EXBadguy » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:19 am

JulieYBM wrote:
No, Dragon Ball Kai has always suffered from poor placement of music, poor casting, uninspired performances, and ill-paced and edited episodes.
We can agree to disagree.


JulieYBM wrote: I don't understand why you are assuming those with opposing opinions suddenly want something so terrible. People want a well produced series with intelligent writing, directing, music, acting and use of resources and time. Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon Crystal is none of that.
I don't think I'm assuming anything. Hell, you know people have been constantly comparing this to Crystal saying "Why can't Kai be like this" and all that crap. Anyway, I'm glad we see eye to eye on this one.
JulieYBM wrote: Heck, Disk Wars: Avengers (which is essentially a Dragon Ball series anyway) is the bare minimum with what one should be able to expect from the production committee members for their massive global intellectual property.

Thinking back on it, Hatano Morio or Koga Tsuyoshi would make for great Dragon Ball directors. It's a shame they haven't touched the franchise, their directing for Disk Wars: Avengers keeps each of their episodes a lot of fun to watch.
Eh. I'm not really an anime fan, DBZ, AoT, One Piece, and FMA:Brotherhood are the only anime series I like and the last ones I'll ever give a shit about. I'm not really into anime, so I might not have the same animation tastes like you do, so I don't have anything to say about that. But yeah, Kai didn't mess things up for me, and it looked good so that's all that matters. Again, we can agree to disagree.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4125
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by Kid Buu » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:22 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:it didn't technically need a redub
The first two seasons didn't have an uncut dub, and the last season didn't have a dub at all. I have no interest in English Sailor Moon at all, but I'm glad Viz is making a faithful and well-acted dub for the dubbies.

We should probably take this to PM though, especially since I never got back to you on that previous PM on Sailor Moon (and Saint Seiya).
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

AnimeMaakuo
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:10 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:17 pm

The artwork is also extremely poor compared to the 90's art! :clap:

(2014) Kai:

- Chubby cheeks.

- Shiny plastic body.

- Goku looks like a pedophile.

Image


(1994) The Dangerous Duo! Super Warriors Never Rest:

- Great artwork!

- They don't look like plastic!

- Body and limbs are proportionate!

- They don't have chubby cheeks!

Image

Conclusion: Toei has become cheap and lazy with how they animate Dragon Ball Z, and don't care about quality (this is starting to sound familiar).
My YouTube

Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:28 pm

How does promotional art being drawn by an unskilled artist relate to Dragon Ball animation having bad character designs, little time, little money and weak directors? That's mental gymnastics where none of necessary, given the actual animated works speak for themselves.
She/HerπŸ’• πŸ’œ πŸ’™
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
Kojiro Sasaki
Banned
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:38 am
Location: Poland

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:00 am

JulieYBM wrote:How does promotional art being drawn by an unskilled artist relate to Dragon Ball animation having bad character designs, little time, little money and weak directors? That's mental gymnastics where none of necessary, given the actual animated works speak for themselves.
How does it relate to the fact that promotional art from the 90's looks way better than promotional art from the 2010's? :)

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:44 am

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:How does promotional art being drawn by an unskilled artist relate to Dragon Ball animation having bad character designs, little time, little money and weak directors? That's mental gymnastics where none of necessary, given the actual animated works speak for themselves.
How does it relate to the fact that promotional art from the 90's looks way better than promotional art from the 2010's? :)
The final line of the aforementioned post reveals that the promotional art from the 1990s ultimately had nothing to do with his point.
She/HerπŸ’• πŸ’œ πŸ’™
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

AnimeMaakuo
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:10 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:41 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:How does promotional art being drawn by an unskilled artist relate to Dragon Ball animation having bad character designs, little time, little money and weak directors? That's mental gymnastics where none of necessary, given the actual animated works speak for themselves.
How does it relate to the fact that promotional art from the 90's looks way better than promotional art from the 2010's? :)
The final line of the aforementioned post reveals that the promotional art from the 1990s ultimately had nothing to do with his point.
Yes, it actually does. I was inferring that the artwork in general has gotten worse when compared to the 90's. Toei has become cheap and lazy. I don't understand why you're having such difficulty understanding this? You don't have to be snobby about it.
My YouTube

Soppa Saiyjins from Dorgou Ballru Zetto is my favorite transformation everah, especially when Trounksoru did it in front of Seru and when Bejita did it when he faced Jingonigen-hachigo. But for real, I use the FUNi pronunciation. - Soppa Saia People

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: Why did Toei cop-out on making Kai a new animated series

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:59 pm

AnimeMaakuo wrote:Yes, it actually does. I was inferring that the artwork in general has gotten worse when compared to the 90's. Toei has become cheap and lazy. I don't understand why you're having such difficulty understanding this. You don't have to be snobby about kit.
There is no indication an employee of Toei Animation drew the CD cover. Even if the artist was an employee of Toei Animation the responsibility of accepting poor work lies on the producer of the CD, not Toei Animation. That CD producer would not be an employee of Toei Animation, but an employee of the CD publisher (Columbia in this case, I would assume). Furthermore, this is still an issue separate from the poor handling of the recent animated works. A less than great character designer is employed, sure. Few talented key animators are employed to create the animation, sure. Little time is allotted to create these new animated projects, sure, but that is not entirely on Toei Animation. Check the credits of these works, Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans and Battle of Gods are not produced entirely by Toei Animation. Every member of the production committee needs to approve schedules, core staff (producer, director, writer), and the budget of these works. 'Toei Animation' is not some blanket term you can toss around.

These works are entirely worthy of criticism. They are also entirely entitled to intelligent criticism, not just half-baked "hey this CD cover looks bad, let me blame a ultimately unrelated company with five hundred employees rather than try to narrow down the individuals actual responsible for approving this trash." That's not being 'snobby', that is taking a decent swing at being half-way authoritative and educational.
She/HerπŸ’• πŸ’œ πŸ’™
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

Post Reply