Was Kai Necessary

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Bagginses » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:04 am

I think this is a bit off-topic, but does anyone else here also thinks that some parts of the Cell arc are just as badly paced as the Namek one in Z? I don't really know why, but it almost always felt like that, to me.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Kuririn Fan » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:23 am

Bagginses wrote:I think this is a bit off-topic, but does anyone else here also thinks that some parts of the Cell arc are just as badly paced as the Namek one in Z? I don't really know why, but it almost always felt like that, to me.

Those island episodes where Cell is on his hunt to perfection are painful to watch and Mr Satan & his students are so annoying at the Cell Games.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Bagginses » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:46 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:
Bagginses wrote:I think this is a bit off-topic, but does anyone else here also thinks that some parts of the Cell arc are just as badly paced as the Namek one in Z? I don't really know why, but it almost always felt like that, to me.

Those island episodes where Cell is on his hunt to perfection are painful to watch and Mr Satan & his students are so annoying at the Cell Games.


I agree, but let's not forget Super Trunks' 1-episode long transformation, in fact the longest transformation in the entirety of the series. Man, no offense to anyone, but what a boring scene that was (and the episode too). :(

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby 8000 Saiyan » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:45 pm

Probably, because it helped Funimation finally step up their game.
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby VDenter » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:58 pm

Over time i find myself liking Kai more and more. While not perfect by any stretch it fixed the worst aspect of DBZ,Witch has some of the most insane padding i have ever seen in any anime it completely ruined the Freeza Vs Goku fight as well as made the already disappointing Buu arc all the more painful to sit through with the amount of filler. The dub was also finally good if not great i like all the Dub voice actors they even got rid of the truly awful ones like Linda Young and made the script much more accurate. The Japanese version certainly did not gain quite as much benefit from Kai as the dub did but having most of the terrible filler cut out easily outweighs the few instances of good filler being thrown out.

Granted the most ideal version of Kai would have been to just do it for both DB and DBZ and reanimate it completely from scratch and just call the entire series Dragon Ball.

But yeah i am entirely grateful Kai was made it far surpasses the original in pretty much every way.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:04 pm

Yes. 100%. Every day of the week Kai was necessary.

I'm honestly grateful to TOEI as a Dragon Ball fan that they gave us Kai, I would love for other shows (Yu-Gi-Oh for example) to have similar treatment or for original Dragon Ball to get a recut.

As stated previously Kai fixed Z's greatest flaw, and that is the pacing. Of course some parts can be a bit too fast (most prominently the Saiyan arc) and much of Z's good filler was cut, some of the music isn't placed as well, but really we'll always have the original DBZ to watch if we want that material. When I go back to rewatch the series I like to do a mix of Z and Kai, but Kai for the most part. Just being able to watch the show at that pace and beautifully remastered (with the exception of the Buu arc) is worth it.

And of course the dub is just fantastic, I would argue on par with the acting quality of Japanese Z. I respect people who like the original Funimation dub but I can't go back after Kai. The difference in quality is truly staggering. If the Ocean dub ever comes out and it lives up to the hype Kai will be, in my opinion, the only way to watch DBZ in English (with the exception of the Pioneer trilogy and post-2005 movie dubs). Hell I'm still excited for the Buu saga's dub.

Also, if nothing else Kai definitely got much of the western world pumped for Dragon Ball's resurgence, which I am confident will only continue into the new year when the Super dub comes out and takes the majority of fans worldwide by storm.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby simtek34 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:02 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:I would love for other shows (Yu-Gi-Oh for example) to have similar treatment

Too late. They already have Yu-Gi-Oh Remastered, which is going on in Japan, and so far, they skipped the Virtual World arc. They are at the Battle City finals.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby funrush » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:54 pm

Kai was definitely important. It:

• Introduced Dragon Ball to a new generation fans, who probably make up a pretty sizable chunk of the Super audience.
• Allowed Funimation to prove to the fans that they know how to respect Dragon Ball's source material by making a DB dub that's better than its Japanese equivalent.
• In addition, Ayres's Freeza, Rial's Bulma, and Clinkenbeard's Gohan/18.
• Made a more watchable version of Z's story by cutting out most of the fat. I can now actually consider recommending this show to my friends without them going "300 episodes???"
• Plus, Z still exists. You can go back and pop in the driving episode any time you want.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby SaiyamanMS » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:24 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:I'm honestly grateful to TOEI as a Dragon Ball fan that they gave us Kai, I would love for other shows (Yu-Gi-Oh for example) to have similar treatment or for original Dragon Ball to get a recut.

Somewhat off topic, but didn't the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime change quite a number of things from the manga that can't be fixed simply by recutting? I never saw much of the anime beyond Duelist Kingdom (and mostly the 4Kids dub at that), but there's a number of changes I recall being made from the original manga.

Anyway, I wouldn't really say Kai was necessary in the way that say... a new season of Rurouni Kenshin covering the Jinchuu arc is necessary. (Come on, Studio Deen! I neeeeed it! Just like I need KyoAni to give me adaptations of the remaining Haruhi Suzumiya novels.) But it was highly beneficial. Also, a new dub of DBZ was more or less necessary, so it gave a good excuse for that.
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby thomas1up » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:05 pm

SaiyamanMS wrote:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:Somewhat off topic, but didn't the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime change quite a number of things from the manga that can't be fixed simply by recutting? I never saw much of the anime beyond Duelist Kingdom (and mostly the 4Kids dub at that), but there's a number of changes I recall being made from the original manga.


Yeah the duelist kingdom arc, while keeping the main plot the same had a lot of differences (such as in the Manga Yugi carried around his grandpa in a camera). It's been a while since I read it but I remember the Battle City Arc being a lot more faithful to the manga, the Final Arc on the other hand was very different from what I've heard (never read it)
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby TheGodfather93 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:27 pm

SaiyamanMS wrote:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:I'm honestly grateful to TOEI as a Dragon Ball fan that they gave us Kai, I would love for other shows (Yu-Gi-Oh for example) to have similar treatment or for original Dragon Ball to get a recut.

Somewhat off topic, but didn't the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime change quite a number of things from the manga that can't be fixed simply by recutting? I never saw much of the anime beyond Duelist Kingdom (and mostly the 4Kids dub at that), but there's a number of changes I recall being made from the original manga.

Anyway, I wouldn't really say Kai was necessary in the way that say... a new season of Rurouni Kenshin covering the Jinchuu arc is necessary. (Come on, Studio Deen! I neeeeed it! Just like I need KyoAni to give me adaptations of the remaining Haruhi Suzumiya novels.) But it was highly beneficial. Also, a new dub of DBZ was more or less necessary, so it gave a good excuse for that.

I stopped reading the manga midway through the Battle City arc, but up until then the manga and anime weren't drastically different. Yes, there were several, mostly minor changes, but not to the point that the anime and manga are indistinguishable from one another. The manga has a much darker beginning that was completely cut from the anime, but was adapted in Season 0, which is a separate entity from the main Duel Monsters anime. The duels in Duelist Kingdom are handled differently (in glass boxes in the manga, and large duel platforms in the anime), and some character interactions are altered, but the story is still the same for the most part. What is drastically different, though, is the original Japanese version of the anime and the 4Kids dub. It's like watching two completely separate shows. 4Krap butchered the themes, characters and storyline to oblivion. Yu-Gi-Oh is actually quite dark and twisted at time, especially near the beginning, but 4Kids kiddified it to an insane degree. It's not as bad as what they did to One Piece, but it's still pretty terrible.

And I agree that the Rurouni Kenshin anime needs a proper adaptation of the Jinchuu arc. The way it was handled in the Reflections movie was terrible and unnecessarily depressing, even going against the mangaka's wishes.
Although to be fair, he didn't really have any input on the movie.
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby SaiyamanMS » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:17 pm

TheGodfather93 wrote:What is drastically different, though, is the original Japanese version of the anime and the 4Kids dub. It's like watching two completely separate shows. 4Krap butchered the themes, characters and storyline to oblivion. Yu-Gi-Oh is actually quite dark and twisted at time, especially near the beginning, but 4Kids kiddified it to an insane degree. It's not as bad as what they did to One Piece, but it's still pretty terrible.

Yeah, I've seen a bit of the Japanese version of the anime (and the few uncut dub episodes that were put out) and I thought it was much better than the edited 4Kids dub. I've also read the original manga in its entirety. I know Crunchyroll have the show up subbed now and I've been intending to actually watch it at some point.

Anyway to elaborate on my previous comment about the "necessity" of Kai, the Japanese version is basically something a fan with editing software could achieve (like the One Piece fan project "One Pace", which fixes the atrocious pacing of that show), while the English dub was something that had to be redone from scratch.
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Vegard Aune » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:49 am

SaiyamanMS wrote:Anyway to elaborate on my previous comment about the "necessity" of Kai, the Japanese version is basically something a fan with editing software could achieve (like the One Piece fan project "One Pace", which fixes the atrocious pacing of that show), while the English dub was something that had to be redone from scratch.

It's not quite the same, seeing how actually completely removing the music from Dragon Ball Z while still keeping the sound-effects and voice-acting completely intact... is kind of impossible. So both the English and Japanese versions needed to be redone from scratch, and fan-projects like One Pace are a lot more limited in what they can accomplish.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Noah » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:37 pm

simtek34 wrote:Too late. They already have Yu-Gi-Oh Remastered, which is going on in Japan, and so far, they skipped the Virtual World arc. They are at the Battle City finals.


I remember reading once about this, you know if they are they going to skip Doma Arc too? (Waking the Dragons in the dub), also it remains the same soundtrack?
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby simtek34 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:13 pm

Noah wrote:
simtek34 wrote:Too late. They already have Yu-Gi-Oh Remastered, which is going on in Japan, and so far, they skipped the Virtual World arc. They are at the Battle City finals.


I remember reading once about this, you know if they are they going to skip Doma Arc too? (Waking the Dragons in the dub), also it remains the same soundtrack?

Same OST, I love it! Its so godly! Almost Kikuchi level! But I don't know about that. I just checked the website, and they finished battle city. Its unknown if it will continue with Dartz or the Millennium World arc. They still show reruns on TV Tokyo at 7:00 AM Japan time. Hopefully 4K Media will release this in the USA, either Crunchyroll with the Original, a new Uncut English dub on a bilingual release, or just a Japanese Subbed Blu-Ray. Its Remastered like Kai, but not cut like it. Its cropped like the orange bricks with the top and bottom removed NOT frame by frame.
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Noah » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:32 pm

simtek34 wrote:Same OST, I love it! Its so godly! Almost Kikuchi level! But I don't know about that. I just checked the website, and they finished battle city. Its unknown if it will continue with Dartz or the Millennium World arc. They still show reruns on TV Tokyo at 7:00 AM Japan time. Hopefully 4K Media will release this in the USA, either Crunchyroll with the Original, a new Uncut English dub on a bilingual release, or just a Japanese Subbed Blu-Ray. Its Remastered like Kai, but not cut like it. Its cropped like the orange bricks with the top and bottom removed NOT frame by frame.

Also, Here are the Openingshttps://youtu.be/ApaNchq58G8https://youtu.be/_eH63dAkf74. The episodes can be found by...other...means


I may sound biased saying this,, but I love the YGO OST too! And as you said this remastered version do not really follows the same pattern of Kai (little to no filler?) cause if they do, I think would skip Doma Arc and do the Millennium World arc.

Thanks for the info, mate!
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby Big Green The Yoshi » Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:45 am

In theory, yes, Kai would have been necessary. The original anime is full of nonsense filler. If they reanimated everything (And I mean not just Z), it would have been spectacular. Unfortunately that wasn't the case and they just chose to cut out filler and become more and more lazy about it. Not to mention the OST is ripped off of other media.

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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby sintzu » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:59 am

Big Green The Yoshi wrote:The original anime is full of nonsense filler. If they reanimated everything, it would have been spectacular.


If it was a seasonal anime then yes, that would've been beyond amazing but if it was a weekly anime then it would've been a mess so turning the original into HD was the better option, even though it had a lot of problems.
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby SaiyamanMS » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:55 am

sintzu wrote:If it was a seasonal anime then yes, that would've been beyond amazing but if it was a weekly anime then it would've been a mess so turning the original into HD was the better option, even though it had a lot of problems.

Hunter x Hunter (2011) was a weekly anime and it looked great. Although I have to agree that a seasonal anime would probably look better. I've just started watching part one of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and it looks amazing. Of course, part of the problem is that Toei Animation are just a cheap studio. I hear that Sailor Moon Crystal looked pretty atrocious when it started and it's a seasonal anime.
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Re: Was Kai Necessary

Postby sintzu » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:11 pm

SaiyamanMS wrote:Hunter x Hunter (2011) was a weekly anime and it looked great. Of course, part of the problem is that Toei Animation are just a cheap studio.


If Mad House did it then I'd agree to a weekly anime but not only are Toei Cheap, they're overloaded unlike Mad House.
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