DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

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lansing
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby lansing » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:02 am

Robo4900 wrote:
lansing wrote:There is no such thing as mixed reference from sources with totally different color palette, they cannot go together. You can only stick with one reference color throughout.

The DBZ season blu-ray should be of the same source as the level set, so the saying of "the level looks nice but the season sets are poorly cc" is incorrect.


The "Seasons" aren't from the same source as the Levels, they're a butchered mockery of it. Even if the original scan the "Seasons" are based on used to be the Levels, the Level scan was only done up to the Cell saga at the latest. Anyway, it's actually very common knowledge that the colours are screwed up on both incarnations of the "Seasons". Compare screenshots to the cels, Kai 1.0, the Levels, and the DBoxes. The "Seasons" are just a mess.


It's pretty obvious that the seasons and level sets use the same source. In term of logical standpoint, just look at the production time line:

Funi want to make a level set blu-ray series->Funi hired a colorist to color correct the film->Funi hired a bunch of workers for manual digital repair->Funi cancelled the release due to high cost->Funi make another release with lower cost.

And then we have this new color from the season set that is different from all the previous releases before level sets? Where do you think it comes from? It makes sense that both "level" and "season" use the same source.

In terms of technical standpoint, the color difference between level set and season set is nothing more than the adjustment in levels, while the level set was in analog range and season set at modern TV range.

I don't know where you get that "the season color are screwed up", I have the 1st and last season at hand, and the color are pretty close to dbz power level cards in the 90s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12n8TyumJu0

Anyway, you clearly either know nothing, or didn't read my post; I said "Cels should give you the shades, DBoxes should give you an idea of the brightness, and the Funi singles should be something to take a look at when you're not sure or lack a cel for a given scene, and want a decent all-round reference, as they had pretty good colours, despite their often not great accuracy."
What I mean by this is that the cels can give you an idea of the shades(This piece of background should be a greenish blue, this bit should be brown, etc), the DBoxes should give you a rough estimate of brightness/contrast(His face is very dark in this shot, the sky is very bright in this shot, etc.), and if you don't have a cel for a given shot, the original Funi singles actually look pretty decent in terms of colour, so they can work as a starting point. Plus if you don't think the DBox version of an episode or shot looks any good, just take a look at the single. Even if you end up deciding the alternative looks better, it'll just mean you've spent more time and care on it.

Ultimately, 90% of the work in a good CC is you just shrugging your shoulders and deciding "This looks good." Because of the inconsistent nature of the various forms of Dragon Ball, there is no such thing as an accurate reference, and even the nice-looking references are probably very hard to duplicate, so just do what looks good.


Your idea is vague.

How can the dragon box even be a reference? It has a red color cast...
And yeah, the original cel seems like a very good idea as a reference, but wait, how many samples do you have? One? Two? How on earth are you going to color correct few hundred scenes per episode with 1 reference from one scene? This is impractical.

Funi singles should be something to take a look at when you're not sure or lack a cel for a given scene, and want a decent all-round reference, as they had pretty good colours, despite their often not great accuracy

What does this even mean?

You can't just take a little bit of this and a little bit of that, mixed them all together and called it color corrected. This is just wrong.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Robo4900 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:48 am

lansing wrote:It's pretty obvious that the seasons and level sets use the same source. In term of logical standpoint, just look at the production time line


Nice job missing the crucial part of my point there: "The Level scan was only done up to the Cell saga at the latest."
The point there being that the Boo saga never had Steve Franko's CC.

Your idea is vague.

How can the dragon box even be a reference? It has a red color cast...
And yeah, the original cel seems like a very good idea as a reference, but wait, how many samples do you have? One? Two? How on earth are you going to color correct few hundred scenes per episode with 1 reference from one scene? This is impractical.


Precisely. If you have a cel of a scene it'll work, but to be honest, Cels always come out a lot darker on film than on the cel, so to be honest, they're not all that accurate anyway.

Funi singles should be something to take a look at when you're not sure or lack a cel for a given scene, and want a decent all-round reference, as they had pretty good colours, despite their often not great accuracy

What does this even mean?

You can't just take a little bit of this and a little bit of that, mixed them all together and called it color corrected. This is just wrong.

Yes, you can. You're not literally grabbing the colour information and combining it, you're looking at them as references that inform your own adjustments to the footage, which -- even with a very good reference -- you have to do largely by eye anyway.

Let me put this in very simple terms...

The Dragon Boxes have decent contrast and brightness(This bit is fairly dark, this bit is fairly light, etc.), but have a tint, usually red.
Meanwhile, the singles have good hues(The sky is actually blue, the grass is actually green, etc.), but are overcontrasted.
So, you CC the hues to be similar the singles, and adjust the brightness/contrast to look similar to the DBoxes.
End result: A new CC that is informed by two different sources for the two main aspects of the CC process.

It's a pretty simple concept, dude.
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lansing
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby lansing » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:43 am

Robo4900 wrote:Nice job missing the crucial part of my point there: "The Level scan was only done up to the Cell saga at the latest."
The point there being that the Boo saga never had Steve Franko's CC.

Your argument has no point. What makes you think that the Buu sage was not CC by Steve Franko? What was your assumption base on?
Here's my argument, because he was the one who also cc the orange brick and level sets, so it's logical to assume that he might also did the Buu saga. And in comparing, its color looks similar and consistent to the previous sagas.

Precisely. If you have a cel of a scene it'll work, but to be honest, Cels always come out a lot darker on film than on the cel, so to be honest, they're not all that accurate anyway.

Say what? You are the one that said the original cels could be a reference, and now you're denying their accuracy?

Yes, you can. You're not literally grabbing the colour information and combining it, you're looking at them as references that inform your own adjustments to the footage, which -- even with a very good reference -- you have to do largely by eye anyway.

Let me put this in very simple terms...

The Dragon Boxes have decent contrast and brightness(This bit is fairly dark, this bit is fairly light, etc.), but have a tint, usually red.
Meanwhile, the singles have good hues(The sky is actually blue, the grass is actually green, etc.), but are overcontrasted.
So, you CC the hues to be similar the singles, and adjust the brightness/contrast to look similar to the DBoxes.
End result: A new CC that is informed by two different sources for the two main aspects of the CC process.

It's a pretty simple concept, dude.

Again, like I said, what you said is vague.

If you can only reference a part of the reference sample, then that would lead people to question the accuracy of that sample as a whole. How can a reference sample have one part accurate and other parts not? And how do you even know if it's accurate? If you assumed something is accurate, then you have to stick to it as a whole, it needs to be consistent.

And earlier you mentioned kai 1.0 being a reference, which is even more hilarious. Exactly what can you reference when you have 2 completely different color palette? What is there to match?

Not to mention that referencing brightness from a source that has a color cast is just wrong. The nature of color cast is an abundant of one color over the others on the RGB channels. To fix that you'll need RGB color correction tools, and RGB tools as a whole is not brightness independent. That means if you change one color on the RGB channels, the brightness will be affected as well. So the color casted dragon box cannot be a reference since its brightness has been screwed up already.


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