DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:24 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:^ Most of the issues we have with FUNi releases aren't terrible or blatantly noticeable.

Oh, yes they are. To the point where it can ruin the entire experience on a bad day.
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:KFC's green tint makes the image look worse, as if it were a medium quality TV rip. It does to me, at least.

The green makes the colors look pretty bad, but Boo Kai is far superior in every other way. The line work, textures, dark detail, etc. far outclass anything Funimation has done with the footage.
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby SpiritBombTriumphant » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:34 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:^ Most of the issues we have with FUNi releases aren't terrible or blatantly noticeable.

Oh, yes they are. To the point where it can ruin the entire experience on a bad day.
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:KFC's green tint makes the image look worse, as if it were a medium quality TV rip. It does to me, at least.

The green makes the colors look pretty bad, but Boo Kai is far superior in every other way. The line work, textures, dark detail, etc. far outclass anything Funimation has done with the footage.


I disagree. I own some of the DBZ BDs and the only problem I have besides 16:9 cropping is that it seems a tad too blue. But Boo Kai simply looks like a slightly above average TV recording, even on BD. FUNi definitely makes better releases than Toei ever has, disregarding Kai 1.0. Boo Kai is simply too disgusting to own until someone fixes that damn green tint. I simply can't get over it like others can.
DHM211 wrote:The irony is that ever since the oranges bricks came along we've begged Funi not to mess the colors for Dragon Ball, yet for nearly every release, they ignored us. Now for the one release that we asked them to color correct, they left it as is.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Robo4900 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:13 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:I disagree. I own some of the DBZ BDs and the only problem I have besides 16:9 cropping is that it seems a tad too blue. But Boo Kai simply looks like a slightly above average TV recording, even on BD. FUNi definitely makes better releases than Toei ever has, disregarding Kai 1.0. Boo Kai is simply too disgusting to own until someone fixes that damn green tint. I simply can't get over it like others can.

So let me get this straight... You're saying this is a satisfactory 1080p HD remaster?


But then you say this is totally unwatchable...


Yes, granted, Boo Kai's picture quality isn't good by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a hell of a lot better than the Funi BDs. Yes, there's a stupid tint, but the film source is better, the DNR isn't as destructive, and half the time, the green tint isn't much worse than the DBox's pink and yellow tints.
I mean, honestly, they're both terrible releases, but at least Boo Kai has the superior dub, the reduced filler content, and the better audio quality on the Japanese track. The Funi BD is just the same content you get on the Dragon Boxes, the singles, the Orange Bricks, and all those partially-complete/cancelled lines, but with a cheap "Cartoon" filter run over it, and the contrast turned up too high.

I'm as much of a critic of Boo Kai as the next guy, but it's 69 more episodes of Kai, with the superior dub we've all come to love, the high quality Japanese audio track, and vastly reduced filler. In other words, it's "New" content. I'd like to see the tint fixed, I'd like to see it in 4:3, and I'd like to see it without as much of the ridiculous DNR Toei and Funi seem so obsessed with, but it's the only version available, so I'm happy to just live with it.
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby SpiritBombTriumphant » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:52 pm

I really am. The first comparisons for the BD of DBZ, with Goku, Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta had to be ZOOMED IN to notice the blur. The second shot, the zoom in on Krillin, looks great. It's less blurry than the comparison shot from the 2000 Double Cross DVD. The third comparison is worse since it's darker than the other two comparison images of Gohan's arm, but it's still fine.

Boo Kai doesn't have the blurriness, so that is a plus. But that tint is seriously grinding my damn gears. You don't have to zoom in on the image to notice that crap. It reeks of "we fucked up and don't care to fix it" from Toei. At least FUNi's BDs have to be carefully analyzed (or not so carefully) to see their mistakes. I've noticed that some people on here will do microscope level analysis on the footage we get to find flaws for it. If you don't do that, it's fine. That's how I do it. As I just said, your examples of why the BDs are FUBAR require close attention to the footage. A casual viewer won't notice it as easily. As for the Dragon Boxes having tint, I never saw footage from it (besides screenshots), so I can't say anything.

For the record, KFC's international version bugs the hell out of me in addition to what Toei did with the tint. It has more episodes than the Japanese version did, and they seem to be mostly filler. I heard that the most recent episode had the Cell Games re-enactment, which was filler. We already had enough filler in the Japanese version of Boo Kai, so now I have to deal with more filler. They only reduced the filler by around 25% if the Dragon Ball Wiki is to be believed, and my memory serves me correctly. Which you might want to check, since it often fails me.

But would it have been so hard to reduce filler more, give us 4:3, and not do that damn tint? I would buy the BDs if the tint was simply removed, even with the additional filler we have that the Japanese broadcast didn't. But they are just looking to give me reasons to not buy this, and I really want to own Kai, but I just can't see a reason to.

I suppose we will be disagreeing, but KFC ruins my viewing experience. The BDs do not, and I quite enjoy them. I am right now as I'm watching the entire 291 episode length of DBZ in its original Japanese format with English subtitles. Quite different, yet kind of the same. I feel like the "THEY DESTROYED THE DIALOGUE" rumors were exaggerated, save for the horrible "YEEHAW! RIDE EM COWBOY!" or "HIS FATHER WAS A BRILLIANT SCIENTIST" lines.
DHM211 wrote:The irony is that ever since the oranges bricks came along we've begged Funi not to mess the colors for Dragon Ball, yet for nearly every release, they ignored us. Now for the one release that we asked them to color correct, they left it as is.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Robo4900 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:58 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:Boo Kai doesn't have the blurriness, so that is a plus. But that tint is seriously grinding my damn gears. You don't have to zoom in on the image to notice that crap. It reeks of "we fucked up and don't care to fix it" from Toei. At least FUNi's BDs have to be carefully analyzed (or not so carefully) to see their mistakes. I've noticed that some people on here will do microscope level analysis on the footage we get to find flaws for it. If you don't do that, it's fine. That's how I do it. As I just said, your examples of why the BDs are FUBAR require close attention to the footage. A casual viewer won't notice it as easily. As for the Dragon Boxes having tint, I never saw footage from it (besides screenshots), so I can't say anything.

They don't require close attention, they just require a basic knowledge of how it's supposed to look.
Hell, even comparing it to the botched up Orange Bricks shows how artificial and over-contrasted it looks. The main sin as far as I'm concerned is how artificial it looks, though; they removed all the texture from it, making it look like it was all drawn in solid colours by some guy in MS Paint. That's not how Dragon Ball is supposed to look.
Anyway, neither shot of Krillin is zoomed in. Remember, it's 1920x1080 footage. What you're seeing there is 1:1 size, just with the rest of the image cropped out. The only bit that's zoomed in is the DVD footage, and you can quite clearly see that although the DVD has some roughness like the rainbow artifacts, it has the exact same level of detail as the Blu Rays, despite the Blu Rays supposedly being HD. But the DVD is superior due to the full framing(Plus it keeps the texture of the show intact better than the BDs). This is unacceptable for a Blu Ray "Remaster", and I can't buy the discs on this basis, because doing so encourages them to continue this nonsense. The blurring in the other picture isn't the whole point, but it is still really bad. The real thing wrong with that picture is the backgrounds; they've been reduced down from their beautiful, painted looks to a bunch of solid colours like the main animation has. It looks terrible.

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:For the record, KFC's international version bugs the hell out of me in addition to what Toei did with the tint. It has more episodes than the Japanese version did, and they seem to be mostly filler. I heard that the most recent episode had the Cell Games re-enactment, which was filler. We already had enough filler in the Japanese version of Boo Kai, so now I have to deal with more filler. They only reduced the filler by around 25% if the Dragon Ball Wiki is to be believed, and my memory serves me correctly. Which you might want to check, since it often fails me.

But would it have been so hard to reduce filler more, give us 4:3, and not do that damn tint? I would buy the BDs if the tint was simply removed, even with the additional filler we have that the Japanese broadcast didn't. But they are just looking to give me reasons to not buy this, and I really want to own Kai, but I just can't see a reason to.

They reduced the Japanese version down, but they did it badly. Yes, Boo Kai should have been 4:3 with better filler reduction, but that would have only happened if it had just been an additional 30-40 episodes of Kai 1.0. It's a huge shame, and Toei are idiots for not doing this really, but there's nothing to be done.
Here's the thing though, Funi's BDs are giving us content we already have in a better form. Toei is actually giving us something we didn't have before; it's a cut-down version with better quality audio, a new score, and an infinitely superior dub.

-

End of the day, I don't expect to convince you of this. Honestly, enjoy what you like. The thing that really irks me though, is that people buying these BDs and just tolerating what they're given basically ruins the chances of us ever getting a proper release in HD, even though the Level masters were done all the way up to somewhere in the Cell arc. Worst part is, there's no solution to this problem. I can't say not to buy it, because that just makes me sound like an ass, especially given it's the only affordable release these days. And I want to support Kai, because it supports the superior dubbing, and it's an alternative option to Funi's terrible main BDs, but because of how badly Toei screwed up the remastering of Boo Kai, I can't really recommend it on video quality, and their screwing up of the filler reduction makes it not a huge amount better in that regard, so I can only convincingly recommend it to dub fans.
Ugh. I really hate this situation.
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby lansing » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:03 pm

This is absolutely not how you do color correction.

The very first thing you need is some sort of reference, afaik the Funimation DBZ Blu-rays are pretty accurate, or, if you have a hand on the Dragon Ball power level cards back in 1994, their color looks pretty accurate too.
After that you'll need to match the color of your source to the reference.

If you can't find a reference, at least you should have some sense of what is right and what is wrong. For example, the skin color of the second sample is definitely not yellow.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Danfun64 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:21 pm

Remember that there are several moments where the Season Blu-Rays are cropped differently compared to Kai TFC, not to mention the whole crushed blacks thing. The best color resource would be a combination of Dragon Box and Season Blu-Ray footage approximating the crop of Kai TFC, with the Dragon Box footage being overlayed over the Season Blu-Ray footage where possible due to not having crushed blacks, and then use that resource in combination with this to color correct the Kai TFC footage, replacing scenes with incorrectable colors with Season Bluray footage where necessary. Alas, that will take a very long time xD

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Robo4900 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:33 am

I'd say the best colours reference is a mixture of Kai 1.0, originals cels, and Levels. Kai usually has the best colours, but can be inaccurate at times, and is a little too bright. Cels are far too bright, and the quality of the scan you find online can vary the colours. The Levels are a little too muted, but look very nice.

Both "Season" sets are very poorly CC'd, and make terrible references.

Of course, for TFC, your only resources are the DBoxes, the Funi singles, and original cels. Cels should give you the shades, DBoxes should give you an idea of the brightness, and the Funi singles should be something to take a look at when you're not sure or lack a cel for a given scene, and want a decent all-round reference, as they had pretty good colours, despite their often not great accuracy.
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Danfun64 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:51 pm

I wonder how long it would take to make a fixed version of TFC. Here's how I'd imagine it would go:

The main source would be the German Blu-Rays due to retained Japanese credits. Secondary video sources will include the Z Season Blu-Rays of the Boo saga as well as the Japanese Blu-Rays of Kai 1.0. The main sources of color would probably be cells, a color corrected Toei Dragon Box set for the Boo episodes, and the old Funimation singles.

The project will mainly be in 16:9, but things like flashbacks to pre Boo material as well as that big recap in the beginning of the first episode of TFC will be redone using the 4:3 Japanese Kai 1.0 footage. Once we get into the actual Boo footage, I'd imagine most of it would be run through a tool like this. Censored scenes (if any) as well as scenes with too many artifacts will have their footage replaced with their Z Season Bluray counterparts (also color corrected of course). In the case of episode titles and next episode preview titles, you'd probably have to recomposite by somehow extracting only said titles while removing the background and then putting them onto color corrected footage, in the case of the former redoing the blur where necessary. In the case of any scene transitions that didn't appear in Z, or redone transitions from Z involving fading from, for example, a scene with the picture on an area near the bottom to a scene with the picture on an area near the top, the scenes will probably have to be redone using the (color corrected) Z Season Bluray footage, as trying to color correct a fade that didn't originally exist seems problematic.

Do you guys think such an endeavor would probably take months? years? and would it be worth it? I'd rather see how much detail we could scrunch out of the Dragon Box masters, but I'm not sure if that's possible without losing other detail. A certain Star Wars related forum did wonders with the SD footage it had available, some versions seem to get as much detail as possible from what they had. Still, being an HD transfer, Boo Kai probably has improved details in some areas that the Dragon Boxes lack...so who knows?
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Metalwario64 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:25 pm

Danfun64 wrote:Boo Kai probably has improved details in some areas that the Dragon Boxes lack...so who knows?

It does. It still has better dark detail, similar to QTec's remastering of the previous arcs:
Image Image

The Dragon Box footage generally just has poor dark details (not as bad as FUNi's film), and you can see it here where Vegetto's pants and hair has most of the darker areas almost completely crushed in the Dragon Boxes, whereas in Kai they're sharp and plainly visible.
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Danfun64 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:16 pm

So basically its trading crushed blacks for... crushed whites and smudge? (seriously look at those clouds)

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby lansing » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:22 pm

Robo4900 wrote:I'd say the best colours reference is a mixture of Kai 1.0, originals cels, and Levels. Kai usually has the best colours, but can be inaccurate at times, and is a little too bright. Cels are far too bright, and the quality of the scan you find online can vary the colours. The Levels are a little too muted, but look very nice.

Both "Season" sets are very poorly CC'd, and make terrible references.

Of course, for TFC, your only resources are the DBoxes, the Funi singles, and original cels. Cels should give you the shades, DBoxes should give you an idea of the brightness, and the Funi singles should be something to take a look at when you're not sure or lack a cel for a given scene, and want a decent all-round reference, as they had pretty good colours, despite their often not great accuracy.

There is no such thing as mixed reference from sources with totally different color palette, they cannot go together. You can only stick with one reference color throughout.

The DBZ season blu-ray should be of the same source as the level set, so the saying of "the level looks nice but the season sets are poorly cc" is incorrect.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Danfun64 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:45 pm

lansing wrote:The DBZ season blu-ray should be of the same source as the level set, so the saying of "the level looks nice but the season sets are poorly cc" is incorrect.

That might be true for Season 1, but no episodes from 40 onwards have a Level set equivalent (and even then episodes 35-39 were only available on since-replaced streaming copies on XBLA and PSN, with one notable fan release of them being done by doing 2-3 video captures (instead of direct access to the files), edited them to try to get the least amount of issues ( with "unavoidable" minor lag in some areas) and syncing the edited footage to the Season Blu-Ray audio). Granted, the color correction could be just as good for the post Season 1 episodes, but I wouldn't know myself.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Metalwario64 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:47 pm

Danfun64 wrote:So basically its trading crushed blacks for... crushed whites and smudge? (seriously look at those clouds)

I forgot to mention that I took that from a YouTube video (I don't like torrenting things), and it wasn't the best quality, plus it had the time in the top left corner, and that cloud is smudged because I had to redraw it to get rid of the time.

My point is still that if even a compressed YouTube video shows off the better dark details, then that's a definite benefit of Kai's footage. It's one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to FUNimation's release, because I want to make some great camera pan images of the Buu arc (with some color correction of course).
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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby lansing » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:18 pm

Danfun64 wrote:I wonder how long it would take to make a fixed version of TFC. Here's how I'd imagine it would go:

The main source would be the German Blu-Rays due to retained Japanese credits. Secondary video sources will include the Z Season Blu-Rays of the Boo saga as well as the Japanese Blu-Rays of Kai 1.0. The main sources of color would probably be cells, a color corrected Toei Dragon Box set for the Boo episodes, and the old Funimation singles.

The project will mainly be in 16:9, but things like flashbacks to pre Boo material as well as that big recap in the beginning of the first episode of TFC will be redone using the 4:3 Japanese Kai 1.0 footage. Once we get into the actual Boo footage, I'd imagine most of it would be run through a tool like this. Censored scenes (if any) as well as scenes with too many artifacts will have their footage replaced with their Z Season Bluray counterparts (also color corrected of course). In the case of episode titles and next episode preview titles, you'd probably have to recomposite by somehow extracting only said titles while removing the background and then putting them onto color corrected footage, in the case of the former redoing the blur where necessary. In the case of any scene transitions that didn't appear in Z, or redone transitions from Z involving fading from, for example, a scene with the picture on an area near the bottom to a scene with the picture on an area near the top, the scenes will probably have to be redone using the (color corrected) Z Season Bluray footage, as trying to color correct a fade that didn't originally exist seems problematic.

Do you guys think such an endeavor would probably take months? years? and would it be worth it? I'd rather see how much detail we could scrunch out of the Dragon Box masters, but I'm not sure if that's possible without losing other detail. A certain Star Wars related forum did wonders with the SD footage it had available, some versions seem to get as much detail as possible from what they had. Still, being an HD transfer, Boo Kai probably has improved details in some areas that the Dragon Boxes lack...so who knows?

Your idea seems doable, but the biggest problem is the cropping and scaling for color matching process. The dbz season blu-ray and kai have different image proportion, you can crop and scale the season set match the kai one, but still they do not line up. It took me over an hour on photoshop for one image and I just gave up. I didn't try your software, maybe you can try and see if it can auto match image proportion and see how it goes.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Danfun64 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:58 pm

The model assumes the test and reference images (frames) are identical, aside from the color. In other words it’s important the images are cropped in the same way (to a reasonable degree). Incorrect cropping may lead to artifacts.

Obviously the cropping for the Dragon Boxes, Season Blu-Rays, Kai TFC, and... other sources don't match. Maybe its possible to approximate cropping using a combination of these sources?

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Danfun64 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:44 pm

lansing wrote:


Surprisingly it kinda works, the main problem being jagged edges, which may or may not be fixable.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby lansing » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:47 am

Danfun64 wrote:
lansing wrote:


Surprisingly it kinda works, the main problem being jagged edges, which may or may not be fixable.

That seems really really impressive, even with the jagged lines it's still better than 100% of all the amateur attempts people had tried before.

Can you put the images to screenshotcomparison for hover over comparing? I wanted to see how close did it gets.
For the jagged line, ultimately you'll need to contact the software author for the explanation or fix. But for now, what you can do is bloat the image up like 2x the original size, then do the processing, and then scale it back down to its original resolution, this is the antialiasing method.

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Danfun64 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:50 am

Honestly, I'd rather redo the process using freshly taken uncompressed images from the Toei Dragon Boxes, Z Season Blu-Rays, and either the Funi or the Kaze Boo Kai Blu-Rays (Orange Brick DVD and Japanese Boo Kai Blu-Ray footage wouldn't be accepted)

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Re: DBZ Kai TFC Episode 1 Color Corrected

Postby Robo4900 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:05 pm

lansing wrote:There is no such thing as mixed reference from sources with totally different color palette, they cannot go together. You can only stick with one reference color throughout.

The DBZ season blu-ray should be of the same source as the level set, so the saying of "the level looks nice but the season sets are poorly cc" is incorrect.


The "Seasons" aren't from the same source as the Levels, they're a butchered mockery of it. Even if the original scan the "Seasons" are based on used to be the Levels, the Level scan was only done up to the Cell saga at the latest. Anyway, it's actually very common knowledge that the colours are screwed up on both incarnations of the "Seasons". Compare screenshots to the cels, Kai 1.0, the Levels, and the DBoxes. The "Seasons" are just a mess.

Anyway, you clearly either know nothing, or didn't read my post; I said "Cels should give you the shades, DBoxes should give you an idea of the brightness, and the Funi singles should be something to take a look at when you're not sure or lack a cel for a given scene, and want a decent all-round reference, as they had pretty good colours, despite their often not great accuracy."
What I mean by this is that the cels can give you an idea of the shades(This piece of background should be a greenish blue, this bit should be brown, etc), the DBoxes should give you a rough estimate of brightness/contrast(His face is very dark in this shot, the sky is very bright in this shot, etc.), and if you don't have a cel for a given shot, the original Funi singles actually look pretty decent in terms of colour, so they can work as a starting point. Plus if you don't think the DBox version of an episode or shot looks any good, just take a look at the single. Even if you end up deciding the alternative looks better, it'll just mean you've spent more time and care on it.

Ultimately, 90% of the work in a good CC is you just shrugging your shoulders and deciding "This looks good." Because of the inconsistent nature of the various forms of Dragon Ball, there is no such thing as an accurate reference, and even the nice-looking references are probably very hard to duplicate, so just do what looks good.
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