Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

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DefinitiveDubs
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Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby DefinitiveDubs » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:04 pm

I appreciate the effort to cut out all the filler, and I do think it's overall better than the original Z, but the way it cuts out filler is a little misguided. Kai runs at ludicrous speed, because instead of cutting stuff that matters (like Bulma/Ginyu body-swapping) they instead cut the number of frames used in scenes before cuts, or speed up those frames. And it just looks awkward. Reaction shots don't even last a second, and attacks don't carry as much weight because so many frames are cut.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby TheQuazz » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:36 am

Did we watch the same show? Animation was never sped up, and reaction shots were mainly either cut or kept the same length.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby sangofe » Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:17 am

No, I don't really think Kai is, but Super, on the other hand, is at times.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby sintzu » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:54 am

TheQuazz wrote:Did we watch the same show? Animation was never sped up, and reaction shots were mainly either cut or kept the same length.


It is, especially in the Buu arc.
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby TheQuazz » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:48 am

Ahh that'd explain it, I haven't seen Boo Kai yet.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:53 am

DefinitiveDubs wrote:I appreciate the effort to cut out all the filler, and I do think it's overall better than the original Z, but the way it cuts out filler is a little misguided. Kai runs at ludicrous speed, because instead of cutting stuff that matters (like Bulma/Ginyu body-swapping) they instead cut the number of frames used in scenes before cuts, or speed up those frames. And it just looks awkward. Reaction shots don't even last a second, and attacks don't carry as much weight because so many frames are cut.

I don't remember them ever speeding anything up, that was a practice of the early Ocean dub.

Aside from that, like many people already know, I don't like Kai at all. I think the very notion of it is ridiculous; Exactly the same, but there's less of it and it looks worse! Granted, you can argue that the parts they cut out never helped the product to begin with, but I'd disagree with that sentiment, as well as list other reasons why they shouldn't have done it the way they did.

However, pacing issues are at the very bottom of Kai's long list of problems, sitting somewhere in-between the small amounts of visible dust due to color-correction and upscaling, and the fact that the OP and ED songs weren't all that great. The worst accusation you could make is against Kai's Saiyan Arc, where the entire second part (training filler, which while not present in the manga, was necessary in the show both for the purposes of fleshing out characters and giving a believable time-scale) was removed. That's it though, the other 3 Arc were paced just fine in Kai.
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby Big Green The Yoshi » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:19 am

To be honest, not really. The Manga itself is surprisingly fast paced in comparison anyway.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby IAmTheMilkMan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:24 am

For the most part, no, I think Kai is just fine... but there are parts where I know exactly what you're talking about. I've noticed this happening, particularly, with the first few Saiyaman episodes of the Buu arc, where it will often move way too quickly with little to no breathing room.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby simtek34 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:37 am

IAmTheMilkMan wrote:For the most part, no, I think Kai is just fine... but there are parts where I know exactly what you're talking about. I've noticed this happening, particularly, with the first few Saiyaman episodes of the Buu arc, where it will often move way too quickly with little to no breathing room.

In the Japanese TV or international version?
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby IAmTheMilkMan » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:06 pm

simtek34 wrote:In the Japanese TV or international version?

Both, actually. I remember thinking that the Japanese version moved way too fast for those first few episodes and I hoped that the International version wouldn't suffer from the same problem. However, upon finally watching The Final Chapters on Toonami, those particular scenes seemed to move just as fast as they did in the Japanese version. Even if they are moving a little slower, it's still too fast with not enough breathing room, in my opinion.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:08 pm

IAmTheMilkMan wrote:
simtek34 wrote:In the Japanese TV or international version?

Both, actually. I remember thinking that the Japanese version moved way too fast for those first few episodes and I hoped that the International version wouldn't suffer from the same problem. However, upon finally watching The Final Chapters on Toonami, those particular scenes seemed to move just as fast as they did in the Japanese version. Even if they are moving a little slower, it's still too fast with not enough breathing room, in my opinion.

The Final Chapters actually keeps most of the Saiyaman Arc, though. The only one I can think of that moved a bit fast was the building fire, since they removed the circumstances that led up to that situation, rendering it pointless. In the Japanese broadcast, the Saiyaman Arc was only 2 episodes, wasn't it? Yeah, definitely too fast, but I don't consider that cut legitimate for the same reason I don't acknowledge the first 2 Ocean Seasons.
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby Cipher » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:35 pm

TheQuazz wrote:Did we watch the same show? Animation was never sped up, and reaction shots were mainly either cut or kept the same length.

I am fairly certain (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that some panning shots at the very least were sped up.

To answer the central question here, yes, I think there are times especially in its early episodes when the series feels a bit too fast, and bucks against the scene-by-scene pacing of the footage it has to work with. I'm not sure there was any way to avoid it. It's why so many people considered Kai a dubious concept from the start. It's watchable, but if you're looking for them, or even if you're not, you'll certainly notice some seams.

Big Green The Yoshi wrote:To be honest, not really. The Manga itself is surprisingly fast paced in comparison anyway.

Not that the manga wouldn't need a little fleshing out for a faithful screen adaptation either way, but I think it's fair to acknowledge a difference between a hypothetical ground-up remake more faithful to the manga, and trying to render one using footage designed for a very particular adaptation done twenty years ago. There's only so much you can do if a scene really only deserves to be five minutes long, but the original broadcast needed to stretch it out to ten. You can trim expendable content, but you're still forced to work around the pacing of the footage you can't lose, and sometimes that can feel at odds with how quickly the show wants move.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby Basaku » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:14 am

In some cases, just as it feels dragging in others. But overall, Kai has almost the perfect DB pacing out there and best translation of the manga pacing. I actually wish Super arcs were longer, ~50 episodes to give some room for major developement of the arcs. So far Super has GT pacing and scale/grandeur of the arcs unfortunately.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby IAmTheMilkMan » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:42 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
IAmTheMilkMan wrote:
simtek34 wrote:In the Japanese TV or international version?

Both, actually. I remember thinking that the Japanese version moved way too fast for those first few episodes and I hoped that the International version wouldn't suffer from the same problem. However, upon finally watching The Final Chapters on Toonami, those particular scenes seemed to move just as fast as they did in the Japanese version. Even if they are moving a little slower, it's still too fast with not enough breathing room, in my opinion.

The Final Chapters actually keeps most of the Saiyaman Arc, though. The only one I can think of that moved a bit fast was the building fire, since they removed the circumstances that led up to that situation, rendering it pointless. In the Japanese broadcast, the Saiyaman Arc was only 2 episodes, wasn't it? Yeah, definitely too fast, but I don't consider that cut legitimate for the same reason I don't acknowledge the first 2 Ocean Seasons.

I'm not referring to the episode count so much as I am the editing within the episodes themselves. I think the Saiyaman arc is totally doable in two episodes, but the way some of the earlier scenes are edited in both versions of Buu Kai make it feel like it's moving way too fast. It's like they're cutting each shot about a second or two earlier than they should be, and the pacing suffers because of it. Cipher summed it up pretty well, actually, except I believe the pacing issues could have been avoided had the editors given the shots and scenes just a little more breathing room (and eased up on the sometimes distracting score). I realize they have TV imposed time constraints to consider and that makes the editing a little more difficult for them... but maybe they could have shortened the 5 and a half minute recap a smidge so that it doesn't feel like I'm hitting fast forward throughout the rest of the episode.

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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:53 am

IAmTheMilkMan wrote:maybe they could have shortened the 5 and a half minute recap a smidge so that it doesn't feel like I'm hitting fast forward throughout the rest of the episode.

Nah dude, how are we supposed to remember that things happened without that long-ass recap? It totally saved me, I didn't even know what show I was watching until at least 3 or 4 minutes into that first episode.
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby TheBlackPaladin » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:18 pm

In some cases yes, in some cases no. I think the battle with Freeza was paced much better in Kai, but overall, I still think DBZ was the superior show. My primary interest in Kai has been, and always will be, the dub. Were it not for the dub, my interest in Kai would border on non-existent for many reasons.
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby 8000 Saiyan » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:02 pm

Too fast? No, I never felt that way about Kai.
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:27 am

8000 Saiyan wrote:Too fast? No, I never felt that way about Kai.

Out of curiosity, and be honest with me here, did you watch Kai first?
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby 8000 Saiyan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:11 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
8000 Saiyan wrote:Too fast? No, I never felt that way about Kai.

Out of curiosity, and be honest with me here, did you watch Kai first?

Nope, I didn't.
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Re: Anyone else think Kai is a little TOO fast?

Postby sintzu » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:15 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
8000 Saiyan wrote:Too fast? No, I never felt that way about Kai.

Out of curiosity, and be honest with me here, did you watch Kai first?

Nope, I didn't.


I didn't either and I think the pacing is just right.
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