Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

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funrush
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by funrush » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:26 pm

From the not actually HD and not actually reanimated "HD reanimation" to the score scandal and varying "Final Chapters" versions, I wouldn't say it's totally unjustified. I'd say the pros outweigh the cons though. DBZ is finally in a digestible format, with a great new dub, and acting as a kind of gateway into Super for new fans.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:52 pm

^The score scandal, "reanimated scenes", and Final Chapter mess seemed pretty passed over in online hate compared to "Waaaah my falcouner score" "waaah the voice actors sound good now" "waaah the characters don't spend six episodes to power up "


Kai aint perfect but it gets criticized for the wrong things.

I suppose going by the Japanese version Kai gets justifiable hate; Its a cheap cash in on a cash cow franchise, the music fiasco and not even airing the last episode or the Buu saga, keeping most of the filler when they do the Buu saga, the voice actors
are apparently less enthusiastic.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:12 pm

funrush wrote:From the not actually HD and not actually reanimated "HD reanimation" to the score scandal and varying "Final Chapters" versions, I wouldn't say it's totally unjustified. I'd say the pros outweigh the cons though. DBZ is finally in a digestible format, with a great new dub, and acting as a kind of gateway into Super for new fans.
Umm... Kai 1.0 is actually HD. I don't see what you mean by "Not actually HD."

Other than that, I agree with you, though.
MasenkoHA wrote:I suppose going by the Japanese version Kai gets justifiable hate; Its a cheap cash in on a cash cow franchise, the music fiasco and not even airing the last episode or the Buu saga, keeping most of the filler when they do the Buu saga, the voice actors are apparently less enthusiastic.
Eh, in Japan, it wasn't "Just" a cash grab; Kai's existence largely solves the problem of Toei not having good audio for Z anymore. 'Course they wouldn't have to do that if they'd actually taken Kei's audio, back when he first offered it, but "Them's the breaks", as they say.
But yeah, I've heard the Japanese voice acting wasn't quite as good in Kai. From what I've heard, it's not something majorly noticeable to an English-speaker, though.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:04 pm

One day I'll watch Japanese Z (or maybe just the movies so I dont have to commit to 291'episodes) but eh watching Kai in Japanese seems pointless when the English dub is mostly so on point.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:49 am

MasenkoHA wrote:One day I'll watch Japanese Z (or maybe just the movies so I dont have to commit to 291'episodes) but eh watching Kai in Japanese seems pointless when the English dub is mostly so on point.
Yeah I watch random Z episodes in JPN all the time (really cannot commit to 291 so just watch the important episodes sporadically) and then once compared some to Kai (not directly just watched a few scenes from Kai) while Kai audio is much clearer* the performances in Z are definitely better there was laugh Nakao did in Kai that was downright cringey. But it's to be expecting the Japanese cast are quite aged, even comparing Super the performances of the dub overall are better.

*Speaking of audio, I like how muffled the Z/DB are, it adds that sense of age to the show ya know!

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:56 pm

Mostly likely due to people not letting go of their nostalgia. Funny to see the Toonami era fans hating on Kai while the kids are watching it on Nick Toons just like the pre-dub fans was hating on DBZ on Toonami when the kids was watching DBZ on CN at the time. By 2010, the kids who grew up with DBZ would be in their late teens and early-maybe mid 20's. They are likely at the age when they start to feel nostalgic of their childhood and seeing something old but new comes off wrong to them.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:31 pm

At least the fans of the original hating on the Toonami era dub had an informed opinion to stand on.


When a fan of the JPN version said "Ha dubbies dont know what they're missing" during Toonami they knew what they were talking about.


When Z dub fans say about Kai kids "Ha they dont know what they're missing!" they really dont know what they're talkig about

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:19 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:*Speaking of audio, I like how muffled the Z/DB are, it adds that sense of age to the show ya know!
Funny, even though the audio of the original show wasn't actually muffled (we all know the story of the broadcast audio by now, right?), I have to admit that I'm so used to listening that way, it has somewhat charmed me.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by sintzu » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:47 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:we all know the story of the broadcast audio by now, right ?
Did Toei throw them away or sell them off ?
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:02 am

sintzu wrote:Did Toei throw them away or sell them off ?
I don't know if there's a definite answer, but the general consensus is that it was thrown away soon after the original broadcasts. Since Toei would obviously have used them on the Dragon Boxes if they could, and there's no record of a sale, that's definitely most likely.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Danfun64 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:30 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:the general consensus is that it was thrown away soon after the original broadcasts. Since Toei would obviously have used them on the Dragon Boxes if they could
DB and DBZ aside, apparently Toei still had the broadcast audio for GT, yet Toei used the inferior sound mix of the film for...reasons.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by NintendoBlaze53 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:16 am

For the dub yes. Kai gave us a faithful complete English dub that puts the old dub to shame like it deserves. Being able to soon digest DBZ English faithfully in 169 episodes will be a treat, music and visual issues aside. I highly recommend a fan project on here that gives audio for all of Kai 1.0 in English with the Yamamoto score, all 98 episodes. This is my favorite way to watch Saiyan to Cell for Dragon Ball.

For Japan, Kai is worthless and really did nothing.

The invention of Kai has made showing Dragon Ball Z to my girlfriend complicated. We watched all of DB together in Japanese and when switching to DBZ, we don't have time for filler, but we've watched Japanese so far and wanna stick with that, but Kai Japanese is bad and it would be annoying to find the Yamamoto score for all of Kai 1.0 in Japanese. But Kikuchi is an icon of Dragon Ball and ARGH. It's really annoying. Point is thanks to Kai, introducing Dragon Ball Z to newcomers can be complicated. What we decided on was Kai English with Yamamoto for Saiyan to Cell. Then for Buu we switch to Z Japanese. We'll be watching the Movies and GT and Super in Japanese so that's no issue and she's used to watching both sub and dub for many other anime. Dragon Ball alone has made her a fan of this franchise, she asked me to buy her a Dragon Ball shirt so I guess I've converted her into a member of the fanbase, but I digress.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:14 pm

No offense, but it kinda sounds like you're making it more complicated than it actually is maybe. The Japanese and English are serviceable in Kai. So are both the replacement Kikuchi Score and the old Yamamoto one. Just pick one and go with it, it's not a big deal.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Cipher » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:45 pm

NintendoBlaze53 wrote:The invention of Kai has made showing Dragon Ball Z to my girlfriend complicated. We watched all of DB together in Japanese and when switching to DBZ, we don't have time for filler, but we've watched Japanese so far and wanna stick with that, but Kai Japanese is bad and it would be annoying to find the Yamamoto score for all of Kai 1.0 in Japanese.
Best way to watch Dragon Ball in its entirety with a girlfriend, tried and tested:

1. The original anime in Japanese.

2. Z up through the mid-Namek arc, then switch over to Kai or the manga until it's done.

3. Back to Z.

There's nothing wrong with Kai in Japanese; it's just not as good as the original. Except in the second half of the Namek arc, where it's infinitely better just by being tolerable.

My girlfriend wasn't all that into the fights or self-serious parts of the series, but really enjoyed the android/Cell arc in Z. It plays just fine, and you don't want to lose the great Kikuchi tracks that accompany it.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:21 pm

Cipher wrote:My girlfriend wasn't all that into the fights or self-serious parts of the series, but really enjoyed the android/Cell arc in Z. It plays just fine, and you don't want to lose the great Kikuchi tracks that accompany it.
Plus, Battle Point Unlimited is incredible.

Anyway, I quite like Kai overall. The Japanese track is indeed a little lacking in places, but it's by no means bad. Just be glad you're not watching Funimation's dub of the Ginyu saga. :wink:
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:36 pm

I rewatched Funimation's Season 1 of Kai recently (I'd never heard the replacement Kikuchi score for the early series before, and wanted to get a feel for that), and despite still having most of the same problems with Kai now as I always have, I really don't mind it. If I had to watch Kai instead of Z from now on, I think I could sleep at night just fine.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by funrush » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:02 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
funrush wrote:From the not actually HD and not actually reanimated "HD reanimation" to the score scandal and varying "Final Chapters" versions, I wouldn't say it's totally unjustified. I'd say the pros outweigh the cons though. DBZ is finally in a digestible format, with a great new dub, and acting as a kind of gateway into Super for new fans.
Umm... Kai 1.0 is actually HD. I don't see what you mean by "Not actually HD."

Other than that, I agree with you, though.
Sorry for the late response, haven't logged on in a bit.

By not actually HD I was talking about how blurry the lines are. To the point where you can just buy the DVDs instead of the Blu-rays because except for a patch of episodes from the Ginyu fight to about Freeza's third form, the difference between the DVDs and Blu-rays is barely discernible. Yes it is by definition HD, but it doesn't look like it. It probably doesn't matter that much, but it's something that bothered me. If the whole show looked like those half a dozen episodes, I wouldn't have an issue.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:17 pm

funrush wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
funrush wrote:From the not actually HD and not actually reanimated "HD reanimation" to the score scandal and varying "Final Chapters" versions, I wouldn't say it's totally unjustified. I'd say the pros outweigh the cons though. DBZ is finally in a digestible format, with a great new dub, and acting as a kind of gateway into Super for new fans.
Umm... Kai 1.0 is actually HD. I don't see what you mean by "Not actually HD."

Other than that, I agree with you, though.
Sorry for the late response, haven't logged on in a bit.

By not actually HD I was talking about how blurry the lines are. To the point where you can just buy the DVDs instead of the Blu-rays because except for a patch of episodes from the Ginyu fight to about Freeza's third form, the difference between the DVDs and Blu-rays is barely discernible. Yes it is by definition HD, but it doesn't look like it. It probably doesn't matter that much, but it's something that bothered me. If the whole show looked like those half a dozen episodes, I wouldn't have an issue.
I can certainly tell the difference. The DVD's are undeniably blurrier if you're watching side by side. I think I get what you mean, though, you aren't a fan of the softness that Kai was going for, and feel that there's no point to HD without a finer look. You'd probably prefer Funimation's typical approach of intensely sharpening the lines, which I can understand, and might have even agreed with at one time. However, the fact is that there are notable diminishing returns when scanning old animation in HD. The difference between 480p and 1080p is far less of a visual gap than something non-animated. Whereas Funimation's Dragon Ball and Kai 2.0 compensated for that by applying fairly heavy sharpening filters, Kai 1.0 went for a far more natural look, which I vastly prefer.

In short, you're problem is more with the sharpness, not so much the resolution.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:57 pm

No. Kai couldn't even get the basics right. The poor editing, green tint, horrible re-drawn scenes, music scandal, horrible music placement etc. It is by far the worst Dragon Ball product and simply unwatchable for me.

The fact that it succeeded in overseas territories is baffling. Well, at least it failed in Japan. I'd say the hate it gets is 100% justified. It is the one time when I can agree with the people who bash Toei by calling them cheap. I'm sure somebody was trying, but the end result was just bad.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by sintzu » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:28 pm

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:The fact that it succeeded in overseas territories is baffling.

Well, at least it failed in Japan.

It is the one time when I can agree with the people who bash Toei by calling them cheap.
That's because it has good things to it, the dub and the pacing. Watching 165 episodes with an accurate dub will always be better of watching 291 episodes full of filler with a bad dub.

It always got viewes, what it failed at was moving toys.

Although it was cheap to just remaster what they had, I think reanimating it would've resulted in a worse product cause of how badly produced their on-going anime are compared to their older anime.
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