Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:50 pm

I never gave a proper answer, and I do have one, so I guess now's as good a time as any.

Yeah, I think it gets more grief than it's worth, even from me. I was fine with most of the cuts aside from a large chunk of the Saiyan Arc, Episode 56 (They combined Z Episode 120 and 121. A fantastic looking episode with a terrible one. It took a lot away from Trunks' debut.), and Episode 98. I like both Yamamoto and Kikuchi versions of Kai 1.0 well enough. The remastering, redrawn frames and the later coloring issues aside, has largely grown on me. Kai has its problems, but I'd say it basically succeeds at being Dragon Ball Z. If the old Z releases were all discontinued tomorrow, I wouldn't be thrilled, but I could live with it, that's what I'm saying.
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:The fact that it succeeded in overseas territories is baffling.

It really shouldn't be. I know you aren't one for dubs, but they're not a negligible factor in international success. In most cases, it was quite an improvement, the Latin American dub is the only case I can think of where localization was notably worse than Z.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Chuquita » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:40 pm

I can't be mad at Kai; it's what finally got us recast Freeza. (Isn't it?).

Ayers makes a good Freeza and I'm happy to hear him.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:43 pm

Chuquita wrote:I can't be mad at Kai; it's what finally got us recast Freeza. (Isn't it?).

Ayers makes a good Freeza and I'm happy to hear him.

Yeah, but I would have vastly preferred a redub of Z. Though I understand why that realistically couldn't have happened, Kai was good enough for what the English localization needed. Now if we can only get a redub of the pre-Z material!
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby 8000 Saiyan » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:19 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Chuquita wrote:I can't be mad at Kai; it's what finally got us recast Freeza. (Isn't it?).

Ayers makes a good Freeza and I'm happy to hear him.

Yeah, but I would have vastly preferred a redub of Z. Though I understand why that realistically couldn't have happened, Kai was good enough for what the English localization needed. Now if we can only get a redub of the pre-Z material!

I don't think Funi will ever redub the pre-Z material.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:52 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Chuquita wrote:I can't be mad at Kai; it's what finally got us recast Freeza. (Isn't it?).

Ayers makes a good Freeza and I'm happy to hear him.

Yeah, but I would have vastly preferred a redub of Z. Though I understand why that realistically couldn't have happened, Kai was good enough for what the English localization needed. Now if we can only get a redub of the pre-Z material!

I don't think Funi will ever redub the pre-Z material.

Probably not, especially not now that there's new material. I can dream...
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby SaiyanGod117 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:30 pm

Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:52 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.

A remake of Dragon Ball wouldn't work, they'd have to censor too much a the beginning. Very low chance of success as far as I can see.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby NintendoBlaze53 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:14 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.

And there's a reason Sailor Moon fans hate Crystal... I'll take an edited good show over a bad redo of a good show. Toei never would have put effort into a reanimated Dragon Ball Z. It would have been as bad as Seasons 1 and 2 of Crystal.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby DHM211 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:41 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.


Tbh after Super I'm very happy Toei didn't reanimate Kai.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby sintzu » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:46 pm

DHM211 wrote:Tbh after Super I'm very happy Toei didn't reanimate Kai.


I am as well. I'd like to see it happen from a studio that'll put time, effort and money into it which is something Toei would never do.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Saikyo no Senshi » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:50 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:It really shouldn't be. I know you aren't one for dubs, but they're not a negligible factor in international success. In most cases, it was quite an improvement, the Latin American dub is the only case I can think of where localization was notably worse than Z.

I was mostly talking about the piss-poor quality Toei put out and despite all that it still succeeded was surprising to me. There has to be a standard of quality, right? The issues with Kai are all there in dubs too.

But, yeah I forgot the majority of Dragon Ball fans do not really care about all the techincal aspects and when something as bad as the OBs can succeed anything can.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:20 am

sintzu wrote:
DHM211 wrote:Tbh after Super I'm very happy Toei didn't reanimate Kai.


I am as well. I'd like to see it happen from a studio that'll put time, effort and money into it which is something Toei would never do.

Toei puts time, effort, and money into tons of things, including Dragon Ball Super. The problem that Super has historically suffered from is poor direction and a general lack of talented staff. If Toei ever decides to totally recreate the old series, provided it has proper pre-planning and clever censorship (which is unavoidable, really), it could easily surpass the original with the same approximate staff rotation that Super has now.
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:I was mostly talking about the piss-poor quality Toei put out and despite all that it still succeeded was surprising to me. There has to be a standard of quality, right? The issues with Kai are all there in dubs too.

Many would disagree that Dragon Ball Kai did suffer from "piss poor quality". I agree that the issues you listed exist, but I don't agree that they're as big a problem to your average viewer as much as they are to you. Hell, they aren't as big a deal to me, and I'm hardly what you'd call a fan of Kai. Like I said in my response to the thread, despite its flaws (the severity of which are highly debatable), Dragon Ball Kai more or less succeeds at being Dragon Ball Z. When we factor in localization, which almost universally went far better with Kai than with Z, the direction the scales tip pretty unanimously favor Kai.

Say you were someone who vastly prefers English dubs, would you even consider Dragon Ball Z over Kai? Would you even entertain the idea for more than a few episodes? Of course not! I know for sure that the same goes for the French dub, the Portuguese dub (Although they have a bit of an odd relationship with the show), and likely most European dubs.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby DHM211 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 am

sintzu wrote:
DHM211 wrote:Tbh after Super I'm very happy Toei didn't reanimate Kai.


I am as well. I'd like to see it happen from a studio that'll put time, effort and money into it which is something Toei would never do.


Toei can if they put their minds (and wallets) to it. Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F, and the Future Trunks - Frieza TV Special are perfect examples of how polished and beautiful modern Dragon Ball art/animation can look. Unfortunately a modern weekly series, especially one with the scheduling of Dragon Ball Super, will almost never come close to looking as good as those 3 examples.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby sintzu » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:15 am

DHM211 wrote:Toei can if they put their minds (and wallets) to it. Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F, and the Future Trunks - Frieza TV Special are perfect examples of how polished and beautiful modern Dragon Ball art/animation can look. Unfortunately a modern weekly series, especially one with the scheduling of Dragon Ball Super, will almost never come close to looking as good as those 3 examples.


The only way they could make it look that good is if it was a seasonal anime.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby NintendoBlaze53 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:12 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:It really shouldn't be. I know you aren't one for dubs, but they're not a negligible factor in international success. In most cases, it was quite an improvement, the Latin American dub is the only case I can think of where localization was notably worse than Z.

I was mostly talking about the piss-poor quality Toei put out and despite all that it still succeeded was surprising to me. There has to be a standard of quality, right? The issues with Kai are all there in dubs too.

But, yeah I forgot the majority of Dragon Ball fans do not really care about all the techincal aspects and when something as bad as the OBs can succeed anything can.

Kai Buu is pretty crap. But Kai 1.0 is a great product in quality. Yamamoto score Kai Episodes 1-98 is a very nice product that I find the easiest and most enjoyable way to watch from Raditz to Cell. The colours are constant, no detail is lost in the visuals. The audio is pretty good and aside from a few jaring cuts when an episode changes key animators midway, it's a good product. Nowhere near OB in any way, shape or form. Kai still remains the best Blu-Ray release of Dragon Ball too.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Saikyo no Senshi » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:32 am

NintendoBlaze53 wrote:Kai Buu is pretty crap. But Kai 1.0 is a great product in quality. Yamamoto score Kai Episodes 1-98 is a very nice product that I find the easiest and most enjoyable way to watch from Raditz to Cell. The colours are constant, no detail is lost in the visuals. The audio is pretty good and aside from a few jaring cuts when an episode changes key animators midway, it's a good product. Nowhere near OB in any way, shape or form. Kai still remains the best Blu-Ray release of Dragon Ball too.

The re-drawn scenes were incredibly distracting, the eye-catches being the biggest offender. Total lack of supervision on the staff's part. The Yamamoto scandal hurt the franchise for reasons I don't think I need to explain. The ill-paced scenes, the editing that as you mentioned was jarring. The censoring.

I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi music, but the placement was wrong almost 9 out of 10 times. The limited access to the music and ignorance from the staff was irritating. The songs, both OP and EDs were out of place with again poor visuals. All these make Kai not a good product, in my opinion of course.

To clarify, I wasn't comparing it to the OBs. I was just pointing out the tendency of the overseas territories to eat up anything with Dragon Ball labelled on it and paying little attention to quality.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby sintzu » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:34 am

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi music, but the placement was wrong almost 9 out of 10 times. The limited access to the music and ignorance from the staff was irritating.


Why couldn't they use all of them ? didn't they already own the rights tot them ?
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby DHM211 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:45 am

sintzu wrote:
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi music, but the placement was wrong almost 9 out of 10 times. The limited access to the music and ignorance from the staff was irritating.


Why couldn't they use all of them ? didn't they already own the rights tot them ?


I'm not 100% sure if this is true, but I heard it's because only a select few tracks were produced in stereo instead of mono.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:05 pm

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:I'm a huge fan of Kikuchi music, but the placement was wrong almost 9 out of 10 times.

Wrong? Different maybe, but there are only occasional instances where it's an utter misplacement (which admittedly isn't great, but it's to be expected for a rushed replacement). I actually enjoyed Kikuchi Kai, it's a reuse of old music, yet it has a tonal identity of its own. It obviously leans toward being more lighthearted than the original, and it's a tad hurried, but it's far more competent than many give it credit for. I think it's because it uses Kikuchi tracks, people expect it to be the original Kikuchi score, but that's clearly not what they were going for.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby DBZAOTA482 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:11 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.

That's because the Z anime was already very faithful to the manga (barring the filler) while the Sailor Moon anime was like a different story from the manga as it changed it from being a surprisingly dark plot-driven story to a relatively light-hearted, character-driven story.
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