Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

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Baggie_Saiyan
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:46 pm

DHM211 wrote:
sintzu wrote:
DHM211 wrote:Tbh after Super I'm very happy Toei didn't reanimate Kai.


I am as well. I'd like to see it happen from a studio that'll put time, effort and money into it which is something Toei would never do.


Toei can if they put their minds (and wallets) to it. Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F, and the Future Trunks - Frieza TV Special are perfect examples of how polished and beautiful modern Dragon Ball art/animation can look. Unfortunately a modern weekly series, especially one with the scheduling of Dragon Ball Super, will almost never come close to looking as good as those 3 examples.

#66 of Super rivalled those in the case of BoG and "F" movie I would say were better too. In the case of Resurrection "F" it is polished yes but there really isn't anything special there, while BoG had Shida it wasn't pure Shida as it was corrected by fan favourite Yamamuro (Initially I was not bothered until seeing what pure Shida looked like). Plus they both lose points for horrible CG, but the Trunks special has some good stuff. Super gets a lot of crap for it's animation and in some cases justified but it has given us one the best animated DB and it is kinda crazy that they managed to pull it off! (I recently #66 again and it still blew me away.)
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby DHM211 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:37 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
DHM211 wrote:
sintzu wrote:
I am as well. I'd like to see it happen from a studio that'll put time, effort and money into it which is something Toei would never do.


Toei can if they put their minds (and wallets) to it. Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F, and the Future Trunks - Frieza TV Special are perfect examples of how polished and beautiful modern Dragon Ball art/animation can look. Unfortunately a modern weekly series, especially one with the scheduling of Dragon Ball Super, will almost never come close to looking as good as those 3 examples.

#66 of Super rivalled those in the case of BoG and "F" movie I would say were better too. In the case of Resurrection "F" it is polished yes but there really isn't anything special there, while BoG had Shida it wasn't pure Shida as it was corrected by fan favourite Yamamuro (Initially I was not bothered until seeing what pure Shida looked like). Plus they both lose points for horrible CG, but the Trunks special has some good stuff. Super gets a lot of crap for it's animation and in some cases justified but it has given us one the best animated DB and it is kinda crazy that they managed to pull it off! (I recently #66 again and it still blew me away.)


Ep 66 is beautiful but the thing is it's an anomaly. For the most part, Super hasn't looked consistently bad since the Future Trunks arc, but I would still prefer the art/animation from the Buu arc the majority of the time.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby SaiyanGod117 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:08 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.

A remake of Dragon Ball wouldn't work, they'd have to censor too much a the beginning. Very low chance of success as far as I can see.

I meant Dragon Ball Z.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Saikyo no Senshi » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:30 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Wrong? Different maybe, but there are only occasional instances where it's an utter misplacement (which admittedly isn't great, but it's to be expected for a rushed replacement). I actually enjoyed Kikuchi Kai, it's a reuse of old music, yet it has a tonal identity of its own. It obviously leans toward being more lighthearted than the original, and it's a tad hurried, but it's far more competent than many give it credit for. I think it's because it uses Kikuchi tracks, people expect it to be the original Kikuchi score, but that's clearly not what they were going for.


Misplaced or badly placed is the better wording I guess. I don't really agree they were going for something. It all felt to me like "Oh, crap we can't use Yamamoto music, what do we do now?!"

With limited budget and producers not giving enough of a shit, they went with the safest option. It could've been good had they tried cause Yamamoto's music was bleh. But, the audio director screwed up there and showed a clear lack of understanding of the Kikuchi pieces. I think they were just trying to finish their jobs as fast as possible. That's the feeling I always got from Kai as a whole. There were instances it worked - I won't deny that, but for the most part it didn't imo. It's good that you enjoy it though.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:52 pm

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Wrong? Different maybe, but there are only occasional instances where it's an utter misplacement (which admittedly isn't great, but it's to be expected for a rushed replacement). I actually enjoyed Kikuchi Kai, it's a reuse of old music, yet it has a tonal identity of its own. It obviously leans toward being more lighthearted than the original, and it's a tad hurried, but it's far more competent than many give it credit for. I think it's because it uses Kikuchi tracks, people expect it to be the original Kikuchi score, but that's clearly not what they were going for.


Misplaced or badly placed is the better wording I guess. I don't really agree they were going for something. It all felt to me like "Oh, crap we can't use Yamamoto music, what do we do now?!"

With limited budget and producers not giving enough of a shit, they went with the safest option. It could've been good had they tried cause Yamamoto's music was bleh. But, the audio director screwed up there and showed a clear lack of understanding of the Kikuchi pieces. I think they were just trying to finish their jobs as fast as possible. That's the feeling I always got from Kai as a whole. There were instances it worked - I won't deny that, but for the most part it didn't imo. It's good that you enjoy it though.

If you're up for it, I'd be interested to hear a few instances of where you think it didn't work in the first arc (the shortest, and the one I'd argue suffers the worst from the replacement). Rather, I'd be interested to see how many you can actually find with a quick pass-through. I suspect that you're remembering it incorrectly.

Feel free not to, of course. I wouldn't want you to waste your time, I just think you'll understand me more if you were to at least sift through those few episodes.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby SaiyanGod117 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:00 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.

A remake of Dragon Ball wouldn't work, they'd have to censor too much a the beginning. Very low chance of success as far as I can see.

Now that I think about it, a reanimated Dragon Ball would also make a good amount of money too. I remembering watch some reanimated scenes of Dragon Ball in a game called DBZ Sagas and they were quite entertaining.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:32 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:Overcourse Toei reanimated Sailor Moon, but not Dragon Ball, I mean did the production committees actually think Sailor Moon would make more money than a well done reanimated Dragon Ball. Nonetheless, I'm still grateful for all the new fans Kai introduced to Dragon Ball and letting the Funi cast getting a second chance to show off there improvements.

A remake of Dragon Ball wouldn't work, they'd have to censor too much a the beginning. Very low chance of success as far as I can see.

Now that I think about it, a reanimated Dragon Ball would also make a good amount of money too. I remembering watch some reanimated scenes of Dragon Ball in a game called DBZ Sagas and they were quite entertaining.

I'm sure it would be financially successful. In many ways, it might even be better. "Wouldn't work" may not have been the best choice of words. I meant to say that I wouldn't enjoy the censorship aspect. I was talking about artistic success, not financial. I apologize for the poor communication on my part.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Android 50 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:02 am

Nope not unjustified at all. I can't watch Kai because of the poor music placement Toei did, I'll just stick with Z.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby SuperSalt » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:36 am

I've personally always loved Dragon Ball, and when DBZ aired in my country many years ago, I was hooked. I started reading the manga, but after that, I just couldn't force myself to watch DBZ. The endless filler, the crazy slow pacing, the really bad voices (at least here, the danish dub was the worst). I thought that the whole of DBZ was just wasted potential. (I still haven't seen it, I still can't lol).

Fast forward a decade+. My brother and I only recently heard of Kai, and we started watching it together (whenever we can find time to hang, we're at the Cell saga now). I loved it! Finally a DB product that actually follows the manga pretty decently, no stupid fillers and overall a very good experience so far. Then Super came along, and I've started to get really hooked on the franchise once again.

I then found this website (awesome one at that), and saw people calling Kai a lot of nasty things. I was dumbfounded, I really, really don't understand how people see this as bad? In my opinion, it is at least much better than the original DBZ.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby OLKv3 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:22 am

I only like Falconer's score in the big key moments. Actually watching an episode of the original dub makes his music incredibly grating, because it's constantly switching between tracks for every different scene cut and it drowns out most of the action. People forget this and only remember the key scenes and tracks. Kai is superior in almost every way, so yes, most of the hate is unjustified in my opinion, because it's from a biased point of view.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby sintzu » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:12 pm

SuperSalt wrote:I really, really don't understand how people see this as bad.


They have their nostalgia goggles on too tight. You'll see people go as far as to say that the late Namek's original dub is better than Kai's.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Kokonoe » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:24 am

The idea of cutting filler is not a bad one, although I actually enjoy Dragon Ball Z's filler myself and feel it to be one of the few exceptions of decent filler in a show. Not having Faulconer's OST sucked, but it's not like I'd die without it.

When it comes down to it, my issues with Kai are three things.

1. (applies to all Kai) The MS paint looking edited scenes are bad and do not do a proper job mimicking the rest of the frames that are being animated. It's really jarring and detracts from the experience. I'd have much preferred they never did these edits as it'd honestly look so much better with the original animation.

2 and 3. (applies only to the dub) Could not stand Gohan's voice actor. I respect the voice for Luffy in One Piece, but his execution here is honestly terrible and way too high pitched and annoying sounding. I didn't care for 18's change either as it felt very generic in comparison to the original voice actor.

Lastly, I felt the original dub did the most important scenes better. Things sounded more professional in Kai, but it lost a lot of emotion and character in the process IMO.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Super Saiyan Swagger » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:38 am

Kai gave us Chris Ayers as Freeza. That alone justifies its existence for me.

Other reasons why I really like Kai include the cutting of filler (most of it), Kenji Yamamoto's score, the significant improvement in the quality of the English dub and it is just so much easier to recommend to a newcomer of the series. I always recommend Kai to people who want to get into the series because no one wants to see Goku running on Snake Way for several episodes.

It does have its problems though. Kai 2014/TFC is a mess with all the green tint, Sumitomo's soundtrack sounding totally off at times, the editing being just as off in some cases and the existence of filler in a series in which its whole purpose was to remove all the filler. Kai from the Saiyan arc through to the Cell arc didn't have as many glaring problems but the whole Yamamoto plagiarism thing and the jarring looking redrawn shots can be displeasing to some. I can look past that stuff because the pros definitely outweigh the cons for me.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Bajosexto » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:47 pm

It depends on which dub were taking about. I think that the hate for Kai 1.0 in Latin America is mostly justified. Except when LatAm fans hate on it for stupid reasons because they're misinformed.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby cheddarsword » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:23 pm

Well, I could understand why people would dislike it. As a fan of Ratchet and Clank, I was rather disappointed with the remake due to the content that it ditched and the parts of the story that were changed. Mind you, I liked the improvements though.

Kai haters (the legitimate ones anyway) probably feel the same way. It cuts a lot of filler, which some people like as they probably feel that it adds to the universe. It also changes a lot of things to be more in line with the manga, such as personalities, phrases and the like, such as Superman Goku being changed. Granted, the images have been cleaned up though, so that's an improvement.

Also the Nickelodeon Censorshit didn't help matters. Even if it is just a TV edit, it was some of the first images people saw.

So with this in mind, I'd say they were justified to an extent.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby GigaDrill » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:33 pm

Toei deserves hate for being lazy and not going through the effort to reanimate anything, and I think that's where most of the hate comes from. That part is justified

Dub-only Z fans who hate Kai for the changed music are also going to hate modern releases of DBZ since it only has Kikuchi's BGM tracks. I think they can be ignored.

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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:00 pm

GigaDrill wrote:Toei deserves hate for being lazy and not going through the effort to reanimate anything, and I think that's where most of the hate comes from. That part is justified

Dub-only Z fans who hate Kai for the changed music are also going to hate modern releases of DBZ since it only has Kikuchi's BGM tracks. I think they can be ignored.

It's not laziness at all. The intent behind Kai was never to create a new DBZ, it was to repackage the existing series for a new generation of fans. I'm sick of this "Toei is lazy" meme being mindlessly regurgitated throughout the community. It's a corporate entity, it doesn't even have the capacity for laziness.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby sintzu » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:28 pm

GigaDrill wrote:Toei deserves hate for being lazy and not going through the effort to reanimate anything.


If Toei's modern ongoing shows are anything to go by then thank god they didn't reanimate it.
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Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Postby Danfun64 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:26 pm

GigaDrill wrote:Dub-only Z fans who hate Kai for the changed music are also going to hate modern releases of DBZ since it only has Kikuchi's BGM tracks.

Not counting the New Singles (in this instance, either the Bardock or the Trunks special got a release after the double features that removed the US soundtrack option due to song licensing issues) the only Funi DBZ release without the Replacement Score is the Dragon Boxes. The Orange Bricks, Level Blu-Rays, and Season Blu-Rays all have their episodes respective Replacement scores as options...and to be fair, I think Funi should have had all three audio tracks available in their Dragon Boxes, removing an episode per disc instead of adding an episode per disc.

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