Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:23 pm

Like anything else there's always legitimate reasons to not like Dragon Ball Z Kai but it just seems a lot of hate I've seen online (YouTube, Yahoo answers, Reddit, real life, etc) have been pretty weak such as


1. The new voices suck!- Everyone who says that makes it sound like they replaced the entire cast when only four voices were swapped out. Two of them are arc characters , one was a supporting character, and only one main character. Hardly worth acting like you have to deal with a brand new cast. And I know its a matter of personal taste but personally I couldn't stand Gohan's first Funimation voice it didn't fit the character at all and made me hate him for no reason (but it fit kid Goku in Dragon Ball) and while the new voice comes off a bit too try hard for my taste I still much prefer it. Bulma's voices are about the same to me, I may slightly prefer her Kai voice since the first one sounds like she was screaming every line with a sore throat.

I have no clue why anyone would prefer Freeza sounding like Gollum's Grandma over actually sounding like an evil tyrant. 18 is the only downgrade we actually got.

And the returning players have all much improved from the season 3 days.


2. The music sucks!- Well this is highly subjective to begin with. I'm biased because I love the Yamamoto score so big and grand. The Faulconer score was generic at best and the musical equivalent of Stockholm syndrome. Even if you prefer the Faulconer score I don't think it would ruin the show


3. They cut all the violence and blood! (bonus if they mention Blue Popo)- So clearly they only saw the Toonzai or Nicktoons kid friendly dubs. Not much to say its just ignorance. Hopefully Toonami showing the uncensored versions relieved this argument but I definitely heard that one as early as a year ago.

User avatar
Super Sayian Prime
I Live Here
Posts: 2296
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:26 pm
Location: Hail

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Super Sayian Prime » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:31 pm

It's an edited, cynically produced, cheap recut with a poorly utilized ancient score and awful scene recreations that later got traded in for a weird green tint.

The story of Kai's production is far more interesting than the actual product.
"I like the money it brings in, but Dragon Ball Heroes is the worst. That's actually the real reason I decided to start working on new material. I was afraid Bandai would make something irredeemably stupid like Super Saiyan 4 Broly." - Akira Toriyama, made up interview, 2013.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:36 pm

Edited as in they took out all* the atrocious pacing and filler or edited because they censored a few minor things like a hole in Goku's chest and Gohan's little penis?


* I should say most because the Goku vs Freeza fight lasted way too long but at least it wasn't the length of
a single television season.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 4383
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:Like anything else there's always legitimate reasons to not like Dragon Ball Z Kai but it just seems a lot of hate I've seen online (YouTube, Yahoo answers, Reddit, real life, etc) have been pretty weak such as

1. The new voices suck!- Everyone who says that makes it sound like they replaced the entire cast when only four voices were swapped out. Two of them are arc characters , one was a supporting character, and only one main character. Hardly worth acting like you have to deal with a brand new cast. And I know its a matter of personal taste but personally I couldn't stand Gohan's first Funimation voice it didn't fit the character at all and made me hate him for no reason (but it fit kid Goku in Dragon Ball) and while the new voice comes off a bit too try hard for my taste I still much prefer it. Bulma's voices are about the same to me, I may slightly prefer her Kai voice since the first one sounds like she was screaming every line with a sore throat.

I have no clue why anyone would prefer Freeza sounding like Gollum's Grandma over actually sounding like an evil tyrant. 18 is the only downgrade we actually got.

And the returning players have all much improved from the season 3 days.
This very, very, very much. Although this only applies to the English dub. As far as I know, the Japanese version featured no recasts.
MasenkoHA wrote:2. The music sucks!- Well this is highly subjective to begin with. I'm biased because I love the Yamamoto score so big and grand. The Faulconer score was generic at best and the musical equivalent of Stockholm syndrome. Even if you prefer the Faulconer score I don't think it would ruin the show
I like Faulconer's music, but the placement was terrible; it didn't need to be blaring the whole time. Kikuchi's music is really great, but I think Yamamoto's was a perfect modernisation of the show without compromising its spirit.
MasenkoHA wrote:3. They cut all the violence and blood! (bonus if they mention Blue Popo)- So clearly they only saw the Toonzai or Nicktoons kid friendly dubs. Not much to say its just ignorance. Hopefully Toonami showing the uncensored versions relieved this argument but I definitely heard that one as early as a year ago.
Yeah, this one is just dumb. Anyone who says this needs to be shot.

Overall, Kai is a very good thing. It's a version of Dragon Ball Z without all the filler, making it much more approachable for modern audiences; it has a decent recap of Dragon Ball at the beginning for all the people who never watched/read it(I've never understood the mentality of these people, but I guess catering to them is a good idea, given how many of them there are); it has a new soundtrack that doesn't sound as dated for those who didn't like Kikuchi's, but kept the adventurous, Dragon Ball spirit for those who didn't like Faulconer's, and also it's really damn good; the Japanese voice track was re-recorded, which solves the long-standing problem of Toei's audio masters sounding like crap; the English dub track was re-recorded, which solves the long-standing problem of Funi's VAs at the time sounding like crap; and the original run is the best Dragon Ball has ever looked.
Final Chapters loses points for the Sumitomo soundtrack not being as good as Yamamoto's, and the poor video remastering, but ultimately, it's more Kai, so all the other stuff still applies. Plus, neither of those things is actually as bad as people generally make it out to be.
And yeah, the Kikuchi replacement score for Kai 1.0 isn't that great, but again, all the other stuff still applies, and there's always the Yamamoto Revival project if it really bothers you, so that's not even a valid point as far as I'm concerned.

So, yes, the hate for Kai is largely unjustified. Final Chapters is a little more justified, but given how close we got to just literally not getting it at all, we can live with it.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:05 pm

Honestly from what I hear of the Final Chapters I'm better off just switching from Kai to Z for the Buu saga and skip the filler at my own leisure.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by sintzu » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:27 pm

Overall yes, although I agree with the major points fans bring up like the music mess of 1.0 and some of the remastering, I think the new dub and being able to watch Z in 165 episodes (some filler is needed to make it flow naturally) instead of 291 still outweighs those downsides.
MasenkoHA wrote:Honestly from what I hear of the Final Chapters I'm better off just switching from Kai to Z for the Buu saga and skip the filler at my own leisure.
Or you could watch it and form your own opinion about it.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
SingleFringe&Sparks
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1642
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu/East District

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:46 pm

As for what people say for prior Kai I think is injustified because most people who hate it there tend to mainly do so based on the Nickolodeon broadcast edit, the strong over identification with certain voices that didnt fit the characters to begin with (Freeza & Bulma most so, though Gohan is debatable) and people nitpicking things through their nostalgia filter, or people who believe misinterpreted conclusions they had from Toonami about the show. All of that stuff to me is still an opinion and all but hardly has any weight to why Kai for the first few arcs are better quality. As those arcs in Z's earlier dub were terrible. Things like a generalized view of the Japanese music and rants arguing over Gohan's voice though with people who defend Kai who tend to take their preference as absolute fact, annoy me as well. Character voices and music are subjective as said as they are based on impressions.

Final Chapters on the other hand really disappoints me. I won't sit here and say that just because its a part of Kai its inherently better. I mean in comparison the old dub's script didn't deviate that much in the Buu saga so the Z dub is fine enough for me. As also with the Buu Saga's Kai version still leaving in the filler, it seems pointless to watch. Then theres the fact that now it just has horribly placed music and painfully predictable, repetitive OST cues with flat Sumitomo tunes, really doesn't make it any better than what people said about the Faulconer score in prior arcs not fitting. My opinion is the same with the terrible music used in the BoG arc. Kai for everything up to this arc, then for the Buu arc I'm fine with Z.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

User avatar
Jinzoningen MULE
I Live Here
Posts: 4405
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Salt Mines

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:52 pm

Kai has such little justification for its own existence that I don't really care who shits on it, even if they're totally wrong.
Robo4900 wrote:As far as I know, the Japanese version featured no recasts.
Mr Satan, Tenshinhan, Videl, (and Nappa? Am I making that up in my head?).
Retired.

User avatar
Bansho64
I Live Here
Posts: 2036
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:59 am

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Bansho64 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:11 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Mr Satan, Tenshinhan, Videl, (and Nappa? Am I making that up in my head?).
Nah, you're right. Along with the one's you listed, I remember the whole Ginyu Force and Dende got recasted as well. There might some other ones. I'm not sure.

User avatar
Nightmare Wheel
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 240
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:46 am

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Nightmare Wheel » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:29 am

Bansho64 wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Mr Satan, Tenshinhan, Videl, (and Nappa? Am I making that up in my head?).
Nah, you're right. Along with the one's you listed, I remember the whole Ginyu Force and Dende got recasted as well. There might some other ones. I'm not sure.
Babidi was also recast. I can't think of any other major changes.

User avatar
8000 Saiyan
I Live Here
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:03 pm

Nightmare Wheel wrote:
Bansho64 wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Mr Satan, Tenshinhan, Videl, (and Nappa? Am I making that up in my head?).
Nah, you're right. Along with the one's you listed, I remember the whole Ginyu Force and Dende got recasted as well. There might some other ones. I'm not sure.
Babidi was also recast. I can't think of any other major changes.
King Cold, the Ox-King and Kami were also recast.
"It was deemed to be too awesome." - Scott McNeil on Dragon Ball Kai not being aired yet in Canada.

User avatar
Jinzoningen MULE
I Live Here
Posts: 4405
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Salt Mines

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:12 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:
Nightmare Wheel wrote:
Bansho64 wrote: Nah, you're right. Along with the one's you listed, I remember the whole Ginyu Force and Dende got recasted as well. There might some other ones. I'm not sure.
Babidi was also recast. I can't think of any other major changes.
King Cold, the Ox-King and Kami were also recast.
That's right! Kami was switched midway through, wasn't he?
Retired.

User avatar
Nejishiki
I Live Here
Posts: 2406
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:45 am

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Nejishiki » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:22 pm

Shimada replaced Aono in Dragon Ball Kai Episode 066, yes.
[color=#0040FF]EPISODE NOTES[/color] wrote:At the end of May 2010, prior to recording the dialogue for this episode, Takeshi Aono suffered a stroke shortly after his surgery for an aortic aneurysm. Veteran voice actor Bin Shimada was brought in to replace the majority of Aono’s anime roles, including the voice of “God” in Dragon Ball Kai. Shimada had previously provided voices for Dragon Ball characters, such as Broli and West Kaiō, but this is the first episode to feature him as “God”.

User avatar
dragonballgeek
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:34 pm

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by dragonballgeek » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:30 am

MasenkoHA wrote:Honestly from what I hear of the Final Chapters I'm better off just switching from Kai to Z for the Buu saga and skip the filler at my own leisure.
Seriously you are. I don't recommend holding out for kai final chapter. Nothing wrong with the English dubs out right now

User avatar
chickensguys
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:28 pm

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by chickensguys » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:12 am

I have mixed feelings about Kai, sometimes I am very pleased with the product but other times parts feel rushed with some odd panning scenes. This use to annoy me a great deal and because of that I prefer the Dragon Box set over Kai.

User avatar
DBZAOTA482
Banned
Posts: 6995
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:18 am

Yes... for Kai from the Saiyan Saga to the Cell Saga at least because most of the hate it got were from FUNi Dub nostalgiatards crying over how it didn't come with their overrated Bruce Faulconer or how the voice work actually sounds legit instead of a high-budget fandub.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

User avatar
Char Aznable
Regular
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:02 pm
Location: Connecticut
Contact:

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Char Aznable » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:35 am

The only cool thing that really came out of Kai in my opinion was the switch in the dub for Freeza to Chris Ayres. Other than that, Kai is largely uninteresting for me. The Japanese release went through all that drama with Kenji Yamamoto on the second to last episode, so that was kind of interesting. I don't know anything at all about what's been going on with Buu, I've largely tuned out from Kai. It is what it is, I guess. The whole thing was a production disaster from everything I remember, and it really felt rushed too.

Dbzfan94
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5673
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:11 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:FUNi Dub nostalgiatards crying.
There is easily a better less offensive way you could've worded this.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10283
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:47 pm

The Non Japanese side of Kai. Ie the Dub absolutely unjustified, I remember after just a couple of months on here I did a complete 180 on the Kai dub, (pre Kanzenshuu I used YT comments community). I sat down and watched it and was like this is actually not as bad as I thought, Colleen's Gohan took me a lot longer to get used to around the Cell arc but I love it now.

On the Japanese side of things, I'd say the hate can be justifiable yeah. From the horribly re drawn scenes that don't mesh at all to the tonned down blood and violence, the whole Yamamoto scandal and then the complete disaster that is the Buu Saga.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Was the hate for Kai largely unjustified?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:29 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:or how the voice work actually sounds legit instead of a high-budget fandub.
That's the one that bothers me the most. Not just because the Funi cast has improved immensenly and noted they have but its still, mostly, the exact same cast since 1999.


But nooooooo to hear some of them talking its a brand new cast all together.

Not that long ago I had an argument with someone who was convinced it was a 4Kids dub with 4Kids voice actors.

Post Reply