Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby simtek34 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:07 pm

I was thinking a couple weeks ago that what if Kai was just re-traced like the selected scenes, but added extra footage to make it 16:9.

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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:10 pm

simtek34 wrote:I was thinking a couple weeks ago that what if Kai was just re-traced like the selected scenes, but added extra footage to make it 16:9.

The traced scenes aren't particularly impressive. They usually lack the fine details and textures of the original. However, I would have prefered an entirely traced Kai to the awkward mix-match that we actually ended up with.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby sintzu » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:30 pm

TheRed259 wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Kai kept in a ton of filler when you look at it closely.

This basically happened with Kai: The Final Chapters so that Toei can sell more episodes internationally.


The Japanese version was shorter at the start and people complained about it messing up the pacing so that's why they kept in as much as they did.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby TheRed259 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:42 pm

Or it was just simply hell on Earth for them having to edit 69 episodes and make them 48 (IIRC).

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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby OmegaRockman » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:21 pm

TheRed259 wrote:Or it was just simply hell on Earth for them having to edit 69 episodes and make them 48 (IIRC).


Honestly, I thought it was Super that caused the change in plans. Like, maybe they initially planned to cut more from Kai, but then they decided to do Super so they stopped making cuts (save for the dance episode filler) to keep the timeslot ready and to give Super a few more weeks of pre-production time.

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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby TheRed259 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:36 pm

Who knows...

In my opinion, in these first episodes the Japanese version was better because it had less filler and better music placement.

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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:42 pm

OmegaRockman wrote:Honestly, I thought it was Super that caused the change in plans. Like, maybe they initially planned to cut more from Kai, but then they decided to do Super so they stopped making cuts (save for the dance episode filler) to keep the timeslot ready and to give Super a few more weeks of pre-production time.

That timeline wouldn't add up. Super had about 5 weeks of pre-production. Let's round the conception of the series up to 3 months beforehand, to be very generous. That puts things right around the Kid Boo fight, meaning any prolonging of Kai for the sake of Super would have only occurred during the Kid Boo fight and afterwards. Problem is, that's too close to the manga as-is for your hypothesis to work. At most, they may have bought one week.

Even that's assuming that Boo Kai was still being produced while those final episodes were airing, which I sincerely doubt.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby OmegaRockman » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:43 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
OmegaRockman wrote:Honestly, I thought it was Super that caused the change in plans. Like, maybe they initially planned to cut more from Kai, but then they decided to do Super so they stopped making cuts (save for the dance episode filler) to keep the timeslot ready and to give Super a few more weeks of pre-production time.

That timeline wouldn't add up. Super had about 5 weeks of pre-production. Let's round the conception of the series up to 3 months beforehand, to be very generous. That puts things right around the Kid Boo fight, meaning any prolonging of Kai for the sake of Super would have only occurred during the Kid Boo fight and afterwards. Problem is, that's too close to the manga as-is for your hypothesis to work. At most, they may have bought one week.

All that's assuming that Boo Kai was still being produced while those final episodes were airing, which I sincerely doubt.


Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!

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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby JacobYBM » Mon May 01, 2017 12:25 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
sintzu wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:All 519 chapters could easily fit into 160 episodes.


It took more than that for Z alone so there's no way they could do that and the original's 194 chapters as well.

Kai kept in a ton of filler when you look at it closely. If it were adapted panel for panel, the entirety of Dragon Ball could definitely fit in under 200 episodes.


Yup, it's definitely possible to do this in about 160 episodes. Hell, if we deviated a little more from the comic we could do this as an even tighter, shorter series, too.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon May 01, 2017 2:25 pm

Honestly, while I understand why people would want Kai to be reanimated from scratch I like the show the way it is. While I still like Z a lot the pacing hasn't aged well, Kai means rewatching the show is less time consuming (and that's a big thing nowadays with so many other commitments) and I still get to see the original footage the way I liked it.

I'm sure subconsciously I'm just giving TOEI an excuse for a fresh idea (reanimating) when they do eventually decide to remake the series as I will happily buy it again, but hey, as long as the final product is good its just another great addition to my collection. I also like the idea that if Kai brought in a new generation of fans there is a strong chance that next reboot will do the same.

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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby superrayman3 » Mon May 01, 2017 5:50 pm

sintzu wrote:
JacobYBM wrote:All 519 chapters could easily fit into 160 episodes.


It took more than that for Z alone so there's no way they could do that and the original's 194 chapters as well.
It only took more episodes because the manga was still in publication and Toei needed to fill up parts in-between in order to keep the series around the same point as the manga plot wise, I guarantee you had Toryama been able to finish the manga before Toei started adapting the series into anime that the episode count would be much lower than it ended up being (and what they did to Kai reflects this).

Now then to the question of the Topic itself, do I think Kai should have been re-animated, for me it's a yes and no, yes because it would've made things look more consistent with the newer stuff, but on the other hand I also say no because the costs for re-animating DBZ would have been a lot higher than what Toei went with so I can see why they didn't, that and the fact that aside from filler DBZ was pretty faithful the first time when it really mattered so it was kind of a "don't fix it if it's not broken" kind of logic (Sailor Moon was a completely different case because the original anime was only loosely based on the manga but was otherwise its own seperate product so of course they'd have to go back and do that one from the ground up to make a more faithful to the original manga adaptation).
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby LuckyCat » Tue May 02, 2017 11:02 am

sintzu wrote:The Japanese version was shorter at the start and people complained about it messing up the pacing so that's why they kept in as much as they did.

Is there a source that says this? I'm genuinely curious as I loved the pacing of the original 98. The filler they left in the Buu arc was at times embarrassingly bad, to the point where it feels like cheaper production and less talented directors.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby JacobYBM » Tue May 02, 2017 11:30 am

It should go without saying that nobody took credit for the enshutsu (episode director) roles in Dragon Ball Kai and whoever acted as the three series directors all declined to use their real names. In other words, nobody took pride in their work on Kai.

Kai's pacing problems are largely in part due to reusing Dragon Ball Z as its base. A series that is actually put together from original animation wouldn't suffer from those issues.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby sintzu » Tue May 02, 2017 12:47 pm

LuckyCat wrote:Is there a source that says this? I'm genuinely curious as I loved the pacing of the original 98.

The filler they left in the Buu arc was at times embarrassingly bad, to the point where it feels like cheaper production and less talented directors.


I was talking about Buu Kai's Japan version. the 1st 15 episodes were cut down to 9 and most weren't happy with the results.

It probably would've been better if it was made for Japan but it wasn't. Due to how successful the original was in the international market they decided to make the Buu arc for them and weren't going to air it in Japan. It only aired because of how bad Toriko did and they needed a quick replacement.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby LuckyCat » Tue May 02, 2017 1:01 pm

sintzu wrote:I was talking about Buu Kai's Japan version. the 1st 15 episodes were cut down to 9 and most weren't happy with the results.

I see, but I'm still curious about a source for this. It's hard to believe that Toei ordered the production of episodes that were sometimes scene to scene exactly the same as Dragon Ball Z's version in length. The audience must start to wonder what the product actually is at some point.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby sintzu » Tue May 02, 2017 1:34 pm

LuckyCat wrote:I see, but I'm still curious about a source for this.

It's hard to believe that Toei ordered the production of episodes that were sometimes scene to scene exactly the same as Dragon Ball Z's version in length.


The source is that the international version has more episodes than the Japanese version.

I think there are 2 reasons for this. 1- They wanted to sell more episodes and 2- The Buu arc didn't have as much filler as the other arcs cause Toriyama didn't draw much fighting which resulted in a faster paced story in the manga that allowed the anime to draw things out when only needed like longer fights.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby LuckyCat » Tue May 02, 2017 1:39 pm

I mean a source that says Toei caved in to fans demand for longer episodes. Otherwise, you could also conclude the directors planned to start fast to get people interested then slacked off to work on bigger projects later. It's a notorious custom in anime. I agree Buu's filler has higher quality than other parts of Z, but not only the high quality scenes were left in.

JacobYBM wrote:It should go without saying that nobody took credit for the enshutsu (episode director) roles in Dragon Ball Kai and whoever acted as the three series directors all declined to use their real names. In other words, nobody took pride in their work on Kai.

Kai's pacing problems are largely in part due to reusing Dragon Ball Z as its base. A series that is actually put together from original animation wouldn't suffer from those issues.

The wiki does give a detailed account of the screenwriters, directors, and episode cuts, but if they are pen names that would explain why they'd let some episodes slip. I know that Kai is limited by using the old footage, but there were definitely scenes in the Buu saga (Might Mask in the shower comes to mind) which would have had zero impact on the scenes surrounding it if it was cut.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby sintzu » Tue May 02, 2017 1:44 pm

LuckyCat wrote:I mean a source that says Toei caved in to fans demand for longer episodes.


They didn't, it was 69 from the start but due to the limited amount of weeks they had to air it in Japan they had to cut it down to 61.
Last edited by sintzu on Tue May 02, 2017 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby JacobYBM » Tue May 02, 2017 1:44 pm

Those are for Dragon Ball Z. The actual enshutsu for Kai all worked under a single psuedonym.
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Re: Should Kai Have Been Reanimated?

Postby SingleFringe&Sparks » Thu May 04, 2017 12:22 am

Only if it looked like Revival Of F, or Budokai 2's Opening Movie where the character models and environmental effects looked closest to the original cel style in HD. Seeing Super turns me off from the newer animation style used on Dragonball completely, if Super is the common aesthetic standard.
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