Dear Lord, Please Help

Help the Kanzenshuu staff beta-test new sections, new website initiatives, and more!

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 15993
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Dear Lord, Please Help

Postby VegettoEX » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:02 am

I get about two paragraphs in, and I just lose it. I have no idea what is going on here. I seem to be bashed about the use of jinzoningen, and then I skim down and I see they're talking about power levels. I'm so lost. I really hope this is a joke. Then I notice they say something about writing for Beckett. This person SOLD INFORMATION FOR PROFIT to people...?

Can someone translate?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll just say this... and you decide if I am wrong. And note that I am basing this on what Wikipedia says, as well as import items stated.

You left out two factors, which honestly do not surprise me. Namely the more "hardcore fans" (the true hardcore fans know this factor) will blame the thought of the name use of "Android" on both Viz and FUNimation. But here is the factor...

One, Wikipedia stated that an android is both "a cyborg that closely resembles a human"
and "an artificially created, yet primarily organic, being that closely resembles a human." We'll ignore the robot part, as this is not an aspect to this factor.

This article is found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android

Two, the kanji spelling of 人造人間十八号 translates into "Android 18" (or "Android Number 18") and not "Cyborg 18" or "Artificial Human 18" (the last one was a belief of mine). And please note that I have translated this with Systran's translation program. This, opposed to seperating the letters as you have when detailing the meaning of the word.

The Android 18 article is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_18
The Systran translation program is found here: http://www.systransoft.com/index.html

And please note that I have translated the word in it's entirety, and have even found out that Toriyama-sensei could not have used the word "cyborg," as it does not match up with the word he used. And the fact that "Artificial Human 18" would appear as this would add more explanation to the subject: 人工的な人間18

Plus, "Artificial Human Number 18" was translated as such: 人工的な人間の第18

And three, plus the final point, is the fact that the name "Android" was used on both Bandai products and posters that were published in english (even before FUNimation translated the names to this). The image below will prove this.

So the point I am making is this...

The word Android was used prior to what FUNimation and Viz Media has put out. And despite what many may say, translation will always beat out any claims. Plus also, true research also always beats out "I will say this, because 'we' hate the english translations." ;) Then again, creators such as Shirow Masamune have used the word "cyborg," when the word "android" would be appropriate. (S.A.C. had mentioned the term "full cyborg" in a few episodes.)

Plus, also, the difference between a cyborg and an android is based on a fine-line. Namely, as implied by you, depends on what the culture believes. And if you look at many old novels that use the terms "android" and "cyborg," you would see what I mean. But, in this case, it's like this...

17 and 18 were given actual programs that allowed Dr. Gero to turn them on, shut them off, or even make them explode. A cyborg does not have these programs, and are mainly limited to programming that would allow them to enhance their "robotic" parts (examples include the factor the concept of turning off any functions that allow them to feel pain). Plus, the word "Articial Human" was a major aspect used in this (again, as they stated, Android is translated into that term). So, in many ways, the correct word would be either "Android" or "Artificial Human"... and both would be described as "An artificial human with cybernetic enhancements."

So yeah, that is what I found out through extensive research. Plus, also, please do not claim I am this or that. I say this because I am not a fan of what FUNimation has done to the series (used to, until I got sick of their music and saw how bad the RPG turned out). Plus, also, Viz is currently co-owned by the company that once published it in Japan. That, and this kind of compassion is what allowed me to write both "There's Something About Gohan" (Beckett DBZ Collector #19) and, to a degree of compassion, "There's Something About Majin Buu" (Best of DBZ #8). Plus, one fan of my first article told me that he liked it, and his friend from Japan said "It's far more accurate than the other stuff they published." (The second article, well, was edited and originally included hints to Beckett that I wanted to write about Vegeta. But $350 for an article made me not complain, until i found out that they misspelled my last name on the "Buu" article page.)

But anyway, this is what I got based on both words and other aspects. And further detailing on this makes me conclude that Toriyama-sensei used the word "Android" to detail the fact that they were no longer human, but "artificial human"... namely ones that "were once human, but were eventually either reconstructed in the same manner as Cell (aka #21)" or "were slowly enhanced with cybernetics, but eventually lost their humanity when Dr.Gero put in programming and devices that were meant for robots."

Myself, I am speculating the first one. Solely, as I may add, from the one brief scene that was shown in the intro sequence that was shown during the "Cell era." Plus, it makes more sense, as it adds more of the "Artificial Human" concept that is used. Along with the fact that it would allow the concept that they were re-created from the ones that Dr.Gero experimented on... and were redone with both the sheer fact that they were supposed to be controlled this way, and were embedded with programming that would make Cell evolve into his "Perfect Form." That, and if that is true, then Dr.Gero was Toriyama-sensei's answer to "Dr.Frankenstein." But, in the form of using the original two as prototypes, then replacing them "cybernetically enhanced clones," in hopes of making both his experiments a success (as well as making them as the testing grounds for making Cell) and having them be controlled by a remote.

That, and I will just conclude with the fact that if all three were chosen, I would choose "Artificial Human." But since "Android" both describes that word, and can also be a being that also has cybernetics, I will go by that and conclude that Androids can be human at one point, or just be recreated humans at another point.

So yes... I hope I do make perfect sense.

And I do hope you will spend more of your energy doing this kind of research, opposed to shamelessly flaming FUNimation... Viz... or anybody/anything you do not know about. And yes, you did do this to a friend of mine when he used my old account there. But, then again, you flamed him without realizing that he was once a uber-hardcore fan. Namely one that once learned Japanese, so he could read the Daizenshuu... and also would make me read up on every aspect and thesis he deemed worthy, before I got into any discussions with him on the series. That, and he also helped me find references and other pieces of information that eventually helped me write up my two articles.

Sorry for saying that, but I had to. I have wasted my time with a person who flamed me... namely because he disregarded the fact that I said "Artificial Human" was the correct term, and that Androids are not defined as "robots."

Beyond that, there is nothing I can say. And also, Toei approved an explanation that ties to the Super Saiyan form. Also, as rumor has it, that Toriyama-sensei himself also approved it. Namely...

The Super Saiyan form (as of the "Frieza Saga") requires both a minimum Power Level of 5 million, and grants a x2.5 modifier. And Goku was able to acieve this form, due to the fact that his body adapted to the x20 "Kaioken" he did while fighting Frieza.

This would explain why Goku's power level went from 300,000 to 15,000,000. And the factor that his power was artificially boosted to 6,000,000 would explain why he was dubbed as saying that he needed to train until he could control it. But, even though the company did a bad job on two of the books (they blamed FUNimation for the first book, and only slipped on one part of the second book)... I recommend checking out this page: http://www.talsorian.com/just_a_touch.shtml

And yes, it was approved... and it's the only thing I respect (when it comes to them).

So that is all I can say. And yes, I do plan to contact whomever I should contact in Japan (i.e. Toei, etc.) about the Android part. Because that is the only way I feel we will recieve the real conclusion on this aspect.

And with that said... I bid you adieu.
:: [| Michael "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu |] - [| VegettoEX.com |] ::

Meri
The Wife
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:04 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Postby Meri » Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:08 am

......... can I have the last few minutes of my life back? Please? Honestly, how do you manage to attract such IDIOTS? You've really got this down to an art form without really trying. :D

User avatar
desirecampbell
Moderator
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Postby desirecampbell » Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:23 pm

Holy Christ...
Firstly, the terms "Cyborg", "Android", "Robot", and "人造人間 (jinzôningen)" have actual definitions.. like so:

Robot
In practical usage, a robot is a mechanical device which performs automated physical tasks, either according to direct human supervision, a pre-defined program or, a set of general guidelines using artificial intelligence techniques. Robots are typically used to do the tasks that are too dirty, dangerous, difficult, repetitive or dull for humans. This usually takes the form of industrial robots used in manufacturing lines. ...
in short: something mechanical... that "does something". A very broad definition.


Cyborg
The term cyborg, a portmanteau of cybernetic organism, is used to designate a creature which is a mixture of organic and mechanical parts. Generally, the aim is to add to or enhance the abilities of an organism by using technology
in short: a human that has some amount of mechanical parts inside them.


Android
An android is an artificially created being that resembles a human being. The word derives from Greek Andr- 'man, human' and the suffix -eides used to mean 'of the species, kind, alike' (from eidos 'species').
in short: A robot that looks human.


人造人間 (jinzôningen)
kanji : sound : meaning
人 : jin : person
造 : zô : create, make, construct
人 : nin : person
間 : gen: interval, space

combining characters gives :
kanji : sound : meaning
人造 : jinzô : artificial
人間 : ningen : human being

in short: 人造人間 (jinzôningen) translates directly to "Artificial Human", not "cyborg", not "robot", not "android".

But...
The term "Artificial Human" could be translated further as "Android", because an 'artificial human' would be a human who isn't a human, but looks like one - like how artificial turf looks like real 'turf' but really isn't. And if it looks human, but isn't human - it's an android! But... a maniquen is an "artificial human" too, as are those carborad cut-outs, and barbie dools, and action figures...
The point is, the term 人造人間 (jinzôningen) is not definite enough to say it "translates exactly to 'android'. " It doesn't. And based off of what is stated in the story, #18 and #17 are Cyborgs, as was previously defined.


Sigh... if only there was a page that explained this... :roll:

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 15993
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Postby VegettoEX » Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:28 pm

I can't tell if they were writing in response to that particular "Ask" entry, or Episode #0005 of the podcast. They sure didn't cite either or.

Either way, they don't seem to be "asking" anything. They're flat-out trying to tell us how wrong we are (well, "we" being "me"... no-one ever goes after anyone else, for some amusing reason). I like how the Wikipedia entry that's being used as evidence not only has "Hurcule" spelled as such (almost as funny as "Freeza" being spelled as such), but says that #18 appeared in DBZ movie 7.

I'm just... really... at such a loss for words. The name seems familiar to me, too. I don't know if they're one of those leftover pieces of annoyance from the 1998-2001 days, or what. My soul cries in anguish over the very fact that this kind of nonsense actually had money charged for it at some point.

Can anyone else try and shed a little light on what their exact argument is?
:: [| Michael "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu |] - [| VegettoEX.com |] ::

User avatar
desirecampbell
Moderator
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Postby desirecampbell » Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:18 pm

His main point is that he used an online translator to try and trump an actual person translating the word. That particular translator does translate "人造人間" to "android". But here are some other translations...

English to Japanese wrote:cyborg - cyborg
android - 人間の特徴をもつ

artificial human - 人工的な人間

artificial - 人工
human - 人間

You can see that the translator doesn't take into account things a real-live person would. It never could. That's why a person translating the text is always given more weight than a machine.


Secondly, he states that 人造人間 (jinzôningen) should be translated to "Android" because that is what is put on promotional materials, and posters by Bandai. Again, this is probably the fault of the in-house translator not knowing the difference between an Android and a Cyborg.


Thirdly, he tries to undermine the definitions of Android and Cyborg. These are proper English words, based in Latin and Greek. The definitions do not change if you live in a different area (as he implies). A robot is a robot is a robot.


Fourthly, he's using the fact that he has two articles published ("There's Something About Gohan" Beckett DBZ Collector #19, "There's Something About Majin Buu" Best of DBZ #8)


Fifthly, he makes a good point with "Toriyama-sensei used the word "Android" to detail the fact that they were no longer human, but "artificial human"... namely ones that "were once human, but were eventually either reconstructed ..." or "were slowly enhanced with cybernetics, but eventually lost their humanity when Dr.Gero put in programming and devices that were meant for robots."
This is a good point, but the idea #18 "lost her humanity" from the cybernetic implants is a stretch. If she "lost her humanity" because she's too robotic, then how did she have a child?

Sixthly, he states that "he believes" Androids could have been human at one point - which kills his argument. He states earlier that "despite what many may say, translation will always beat out any claims. Plus also, true research also always beats out 'I will say this, because 'we' hate the English translations'. "
He said earlier that translations beat out opinions, and then uses his opinion on the meaning of the word "Android" to back up his claims. He has failed.

Also, he seems to carry a grudge about you "flaming" his friend who used his account (probably on these forums) who "knew Japanese" and "read the daizenshuu".

Lastly, he tries to tie in Super Saiyan and Power Levels that were "approved by Toei" and "rumor has it" were approved by Toriyama. These Power Levels are from the official Role Playing Game put out by R. Talsorian games. This game was based on the dub (exclusively) and was licenced by FUNI - not Toei. Beyond that, it's a game, and shouldn't be used for anything outside the game (and the game is done terribly, by RPG standards.)

Pay no mind to him, he's an idiot.

User avatar
Azure
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:43 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Postby Azure » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:43 pm

Good grief, I think the problem here is that the writer isn't taking to account that Japanese is an whole other language and that words don't allways translate 100%

OK I'm likely to slip up becuase I've only seen this in Ocean dub.
From reading SF I take android as totally artifical, cyborg as man/robot combination.

With #17 and #18 I thought the whole big thing is that Goku et all assumed that they were totally artifical machines 'androids'. However when Bulma got their plans she realised that they were originally people who had been modified ( that would mean she realised they were in fact cyborgs), this made Krillin think more about #18 as a human not a machine. This would also explain how #18 can have kids!
Dr Gero also becomes a cyborg, since he leaves his organic brain in.

That makes any ref to them as androids up to the point of that scene ( between Bulma and Krillin) correct via the cast view points. However I can see in the dub it will become confusing if they keep changing how they translate jinzoningen. Also as a fan dubber I can tell you that fitting in android is much easier and natural than 'artifical human' even if it's less correct. Artificial human when said naturally takes longer to say, to match it up I'd have to speak double speed.Much like how Wolf Fang Gale fist is often shortened to Wolf Fang Fist sometimes you have to sacrafice a little.

Summary: Android is an OK term most of the time since it's only after the Bulma/Krillin scene the word 'cyborg' is relevant to #17 and #18 . Artifical human is probably the best way to describe them but in the end think of the lip flaps folks.The word Jinzoningen suits Toriyama's plot perfectly as it's vague. As for Viz it's a manga they had room for artifical human so boo them if they didn't use it:P

All the rest I assume are totaly artificial so that makes them androids. Though this did make me think of Cell. Cell isn't human he's totally artificial but he is organic so umm I guess we'd call him an artifical life form or umm Cell for short :P


NB I once saw action figures labled cyborg 17 that quite suprised me =3 This was also with a car happily marked Satan...

Blitzen
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:13 am

Postby Blitzen » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:54 am

I'm thinking this might be the dickhead who used to post here who continually referenced things he did in Beckett?

User avatar
desirecampbell
Moderator
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Postby desirecampbell » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:06 am

Blitzen wrote:I'm thinking this might be the dickhead who used to post here who continually referenced things he did in Beckett?


Aye, matey.

User avatar
Iyouboushi
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: irc.esper.net #Kyoto

Postby Iyouboushi » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:41 am

VegettoEX wrote:[Wikipedia] says that #18 appeared in DBZ movie 7.


She did. As did #17. Briefly, in a quick flashback at the beginning to remind people about the jinzouningen. But yeah, Wikipedia is far from being the most reliable source on the planet. Especially when it comes to popular anime that tend to generate lots of love it or hate it groups; the latter of which who have nothing better to do than try to flame/give wrong information.

Anyway.. some dictionaries will have 人造人間 listed as "cyborg" or "robot" but I think "artificial human" sounds way better. 18 is definitely not a robot, since she can have kids. I'm inclined to believe that 17 and 18 aren't cyborgs either. 19 might be considered a robot, since he doesn't seem to be human at one point (same with 16) but Toriyama used 人造人間 for all of them. I don't really have much else to add, as everyone else really said it way better than I can.

Pay no mind to him, he's an idiot.

Agree. Several months late, but I agree.
"Words! I need more words! My grasp of the language is not sufficient to describe the violent-wretching nausia your singing is causing me to experience!"
My Website :: The Ultimate RK FAQ

DaftBrian
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:58 am
Location: Mass
Contact:

Robots

Postby DaftBrian » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:26 am

I have a theory. Since these don't officially exist, we could call them anything. People call have names for the following: "Cars, ,Horseless Carriage,motor car, auto, automobile, beetle, bucket*, bug, buggy*, bus, clunker*, compact, convertible, conveyance, coupe, hardtop, hatchback, heap*, jalopy*, jeep, junker*, limousine, machine, motor, motorcar, pickup, ride*, roadster, sedan, station wagon, subcompact, touring car, truck, van, wagon, wheels*, wreck...ect"

I just say "Metal String-less Auto Super Puppets with Computer Brain"
"Every time you cry, I laugh a little more"

User avatar
Deus ex Machina
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1917
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Robots

Postby Deus ex Machina » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:33 am

DaftBrian wrote:I have a theory. Since these don't officially exist, we could call them anything.... <snip> ...I just say "Metal String-less Auto Super Puppets with Computer Brain"


The problem with your theory, is that while all those names can be used to describe a car, the terms "Cyborg" and "Android" are not interchangeable. They have very specific meanings, and the term android cannot be accurately applied to No. 17 & 18.

To use your car anaology, by your logic I could call my car a horse, simply because they're both forms of land transportation.

DaftBrian
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:58 am
Location: Mass
Contact:

Yes

Postby DaftBrian » Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:42 am

That was supposed to be a little humorous. Grain of Salt.
"Every time you cry, I laugh a little more"

User avatar
Deus ex Machina
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1917
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:47 am

Postby Deus ex Machina » Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:52 am

You can't be sarcastic with me this late at night, because more than likely I won't be able to tell the difference. :P

User avatar
djkalteraphine
Regular
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:42 pm
Location: Modesto, CA
Contact:

Postby djkalteraphine » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:40 am

Lordy, lordy, that's hilarious. Oh Mike, this guy is one for the ages: Want help? Don't sweat this one. This guy is talking far out of his ass, as I'm positive you're aware.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 15993
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Postby VegettoEX » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:11 am

Umm... people? This thread was from back in July. Please pay attention.
:: [| Michael "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu |] - [| VegettoEX.com |] ::


Return to “Staff Help Requests”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests