DBZ Movies: Where They Fit In

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Deus ex Machina
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Postby Deus ex Machina » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:14 pm

*PINHEAD* wrote:Maybe Androids 13-15 were the androids they fought. 17 and 18 could have been destroyed by 13-15. So instead of the Z Senshi defeating 17 and 18, and then 13-15, it could have just been 13-15. And then Trunks, future, Cell, DB timeline, Room of Spirit and Time, Cell go boom.


I had considered that (Infact it's really ironic, since the appearance of 14&15's arrival in the city is just like how Trunks told them about the Androids) However, that scenario doesn't work.

We can assume that the intro scene from the movie follows the series story up to that point. 19 is missing, Dr. Gero is missing his hat and arm, and 17 kills Gero in the same fashion, and 17 smirks up at the open doorway (at the unseen Z senshi).

Fast forward to the movie, now everybody is relaxing in the city, not searching for 17 and 18 or 20. This heavily implies that the androids at this point are dead. (Poor Kuririn)

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Postby PsyLiam » Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:19 pm

Also (and I'm not sure if this is just in the dub or not), doesn't everyone realise that 13-15 are androids because they can't sense their ki? That makes it even more likely that they'd already met 19-20 (since that's where they learnt that knowledge in the "real" universe).
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Postby SDHero » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:05 am

Yep. The manga makes this point very much the same as both the sub and dub in the anime, they're surprised by the attack on the island because they couldn't feel the Android's Ki. Therefore, it would HAVE to be after meeting #19 and 20, yet before Dr. Gero's Lab was annihlated by Kurririn and Trunks.

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Postby johnboy1 » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:51 am

Oh my, oh my... I found this topic lying dead at the top of a junk pile. Time to work my voodoo. *ahem*

Fennas Nogothrim Lasto Beth Lammen!

*large stone door opens behind me*

Ooookaaaay, I was going for resurrection, but that works, too. Okay, enough jokes.

A little investigation of my own reveals that only one of the 17 movies can fit flawlessly into the timeline: DBZ Movie 13.

The DB movies replace events in the manga, so all four of those go out the window. DBZ Movie 1 comes close, but has the whole Gohan dilemma (thus making an entire saga of the anime a plothole). Movies 2-4 are hopelessly lost chronologically. Movie 5 comes close, but has the Goku-can't-willfully turn Super Saiyan dilemma (making his appearance in DBGT a plothole [surprise, surprise]). Movies 6-8 just don't work. Movie 9 get thrown out on the smallest of technicailities: Trunks' hair. Movies 10-12 must be ignored.

Movie 13, however, has none. I know VegettoEX has the problem with Trunks' sword not being Future Trunks' sword. While it's obvious that that's what Toei is implying, we can twist things around and say that it's GT Trunks' sword.

Now, is there anything from the manga or anime that contradicts this? Trunks does not have his sword during the 28th Tenka'ichi Budôkai, this is true, but one must also think that he was on his way to a tournament that barred all weapons. Also, being a slacker, unlike his future counterpart, I don't think he'd carry that clunker around unless he felt he had to.

Voila! It works. However, it's been years since I last saw Movie 13, so could anyone tell me if I'm right. I understand that some scenes of him training with the sword. If he is seen in his adult form then (which I can't remember if he was or not), is he made to look like Future Trunks, or is it a design similar to the end of DBZ?

But, for the purists, it could still be thrown out because Goku is shown to be stronger than Gohan, who should be stronger than everyone. So I guess all of the above was pointless.
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Postby Dai » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:31 am

I don't think Gohan is ''supposed'' to be stronger than Goku, but anyway...

What about Trunks' hair? It's been said before, but it's entirely plausible he let it grow in the future, then went back in time for no reason just in time to help Goku and the gang solve another mystery --- fight another intergalactic evil.

At the end of Movie 13, Trunks receives Tapion's sword, and the film immediately switches to the end credits which shows clips of Future Trunks using his sword. So in this case, I think it was entirely intented by Toei to have this movie be the explanation for the origin of Future Trunks' sword. It's stupid and makes no sense, but hey.

In my opinion, both fit equally well, but if you're ganging up and beating the crap out of poor defenseless details, then I'd say Movie 9 fits even better than Movie 13.
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Postby El_Diablo » Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:12 pm

Gohan is supposed to be stronger than Goku. More that 5x stronger
Where's the beef?

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Postby johnboy1 » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:35 pm

Okay, then it's official: all the movies don't fit. DBZ Movie 1 doesn't fit. Thus, the Garlic Jr. Saga doesn't fit. DBZ Movie 3 doesn't fit, so anything involving Icarus doesn't fit. DBZ Movie 5 doesn't fit. So, because of Cooler's appearance, The Super 17 Saga doesn't fit. Because the Super 17 Saga doesn't fit, the Shadow Dragon Saga doesn't fit. Because the Shadow Dragon Saga doesn't fit, the final tournament with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. doesn't fit.

Also, Kame-Sen'nin's tale about the creation of the Dragon Balls doesn't fit. Kaiô-sama's tale about the destruction of Planet Vegeta doesn't fit. In fact, because Gohan is not Mystic in GT, that means the whole GT series doesn't fit. Does that cover all the plotholes?

Come to think of it, the only thing Toei made that didn't create a plothole (barring inconsequential filler like the driving episode and the fake Namek) was the Burdock special.

In conclusion: Toei sucks.

Anyway, about the hair: When Trunks fought Cell in the future, he was getting ready to go back in time and inform everyone about his victory (which is supposedly when Bojack arrives). At this time, his hair was short. The time machine was in no way damaged during the fight, meaning that he left shortly after his victory. Thus, his hair should still be short in Movie 9 (uggh, is Toei so stupid that they couldn't figure out a plothole that small?). Ergo, Movie 9 doesn't fit.
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Postby B-kun » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:47 pm

There're simply some things you should ignore. Was it ever actually even said in DBZ movie 5 that Goku couldn't transform? As far as I'm concerned, it was simply for dramatic effect. If Goku had transformed into SSJ at the beginning, he would've kicked butt in an instant.

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Postby Deus ex Machina » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:22 pm

johnboy1 wrote:Come to think of it, the only thing Toei made that didn't create a plothole (barring inconsequential filler like the driving episode and the fake Namek) was the Burdock special.


Actually, it contradicts an anime filler scene in the Saiyan saga, when Raditz has a flash back about when they sent Goku to Earth, so it's filler contradicting filler in this case.

Anyway, about the hair: When Trunks fought Cell in the future, he was getting ready to go back in time and inform everyone about his victory (which is supposedly when Bojack arrives). At this time, his hair was short. The time machine was in no way damaged during the fight, meaning that he left shortly after his victory. Thus, his hair should still be short in Movie 9 (uggh, is Toei so stupid that they couldn't figure out a plothole that small?). Ergo, Movie 9 doesn't fit.


I've thought about that too, but then again we don't know how long Trunks spent in the past. It's possible he came to the past and stayed a year, until his hair grew out. It's also possible that Trunks didn't go back in time right away after killing Cell. The length of Trunks' hair is haredly a kind of conclusive proof, since it constantly changes length.

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Postby Dragon » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:56 pm

I think movie 1, The Dead Zone, can't work mainly because everybody already knows about Gohan. But it would make sense that Goku would have his power pole because in the last tournament in Dragonball, when Goku first showed up in an umbrella, he had his power pole fastened to his back. Am I right or did I see wrong? Because I swear I saw his power pole! ... But that was near the middle of this year so it's been some time.
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Postby johnboy1 » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:43 am

Argh, there's just no getting around it, is there? The only way for the series to make sense (if it ever did so in the first place) is to get rid of filler, including the Movies, TV Specials, and all of GT. I wanted GT to be canon SO bad...

Why? Because the ending of the DB manga sucked ass, even with the Kanzenban's new stuff tacked on. The ending of GT is just so PERFECT. I mean, think about it: At the ending of the DB manga, Mr. Toriyama basically says, "More stuff's gonna happen, but I'm sick of this story and don't want to tell you about it," while the ending of GT says, "This is the end, it's over, it's caput, there is no more, you can go home now, I love you, bye bye!"

There was so much more finality to it. Sure, you could say that it still had a loose end with Goku Jr., but, honestly, nobody cared about him, even after seeing the TV Special. We saw him go Super Saiyan for the first time, and we got to see the rebirth of the Son-Briefs rivalry. That's enough. On the other hand, EVERYONE cared about Goku (Sr.), and letting the story end with him abandoning his family for an Indian kid just didn't do him justice. GT leaves him as a spirit of goodness that will last forever (or at least that's how I saw it). Much better...
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Postby Chibi Mystic Gohan » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:12 am

johnboy1 wrote:Come to think of it, the only thing Toei made that didn't create a plothole (barring inconsequential filler like the driving episode and the fake Namek) was the Burdock special.

In conclusion: Toei sucks.


The Afterlife Budoukai didn't create any plotholes, except for a filler plothole, aka Yamcha>>Super Perfect Cell, but it didn't contradict anything in the manga.
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Postby Dai » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:14 am

Dragon's quite right. Goku does carry his Nyoibo when he appears at the 23rd Budokai. And, if I remember correctly, future scenes in the manga no longer show any connection between the sanctuary and Karin's place. Meaning, Goku took the staff back with him after finishing up his training with Kami...

Or does he put it back later? I do remember the anime being really inconsistent about this, with sometimes having a pole connecting the sanctuary and at other times nothing.
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Postby El_Diablo » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:48 am

I'm sure I remember seeing Nyoi-bo between Karin Tower and the lookout in DBZ
Last edited by El_Diablo on Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Where's the beef?

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Postby Chibi Mystic Gohan » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:55 am

Someone refresh my memory, why exacly did he put the Nyoi-Bo between Karin's tower and Kami's temple?
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Postby El_Diablo » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:59 am

It was meant to be the sacred way to reach the Floating Palace.

Kind of spoilt when Bulma flies up there in a plane
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Postby ChaotixXero » Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:18 am

I thought Movie's 5&6(Cooler Movies?) took place in the 3 years waiting for the androids. 5 in the 1st year.6 in the 3rd year.

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Re: DBZ Movies: Where They Fit In

Postby Rocketman » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:35 am

Well, time for some filler/non-canon rationalizing...

Movie 5: Cooler's Revenge

Where it fits in: After Cyborg Frieza, before Androids 19 and 20.
But what about...?:

Gohan's hair? ChiChi makes him study all the time and wear odd clothing. I don't think it's too out-there to say she made him cut his hair.

Goku's delay of SSj? Just before fighting A19, Goku goes SSj. The transformation takes about a minute. On Namek, it took three minutes. By the Buu Saga, it takes a second or so. I believe all this points to the need to prepare the body to accept the SSj transformation, with Namek taking the longest because of it being the first trans.

When Goku turned SSj against Trunks, he had been believing he was about to fight Frieza. He had already prepared his body so his transformation was on hair-trigger.

Against Cooler, Goku had first been on a relaxing camping trip, then close to death, then getting smacked by Cooler. He didn't have time to prep his body, so it took pure rage to force the transformation.

Vegeta's absence? Vegeta is training in space.

Cooler's ignorance of King Cold's death? When Trunks killed Frieza/King Cold/everybody else, there was nobody left alive to report it.

Piccolo's Late Arrival? He was waiting for Gohan to be in the path of some attack, then he could jump in right before Gohan got fried.

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Postby Super Sonic » Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:55 pm

It's possible that movie #5 could have happened, but not movie #6. The reason is because Dende is Kami and they'd be busy with Cell at the time.

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Postby Deus ex Machina » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:50 pm

Super Sonic wrote:It's possible that movie #5 could have happened, but not movie #6. The reason is because Dende is Kami and they'd be busy with Cell at the time.


Not only that, but if Dende is already Kami-sama, then Gohan should be a Super Saiyan.


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