Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

[Jord]

I agree with the fact that the Buu era cast is a great and big cast to work with. You've got the older cast, the kids and everything in between. That being said, due to it being a midquel we not only know the starting point but also know how it ends, which is what we see in DBZ episode 289, which takes place after the time gap.

That completely takes out any semblance of tension in the series when it comes to survival, which was an exciting factor in Z and GT. Goku Black appears and he's so strong! Wow, the universe could be erased!....nope. We know Goku and co. end up ok. The only characters we could be worried about are those that don't appear in Z and GT but those were never in any real danger. Life or death fights are boring when you already know the outcome. You could say that everyone always won in Z and GT but they at least took some risks by letting people die either temporarily like Goku vs Cell and permanently like Buu and Piccolo in GT.

Furthermore, the midquel thing also creates some plotholes with both Z and GT. So Frieza gets ressurrected but is suddenly in hell again later on? Where are Beerus, Whis and co and why does nobody remember both them, the Super adventures and the Blue forms? It's interesting to see Goku being so focused on the 'immensely powerful' Uub when he fought enemies that were way, WAY stronger than Uub during Super?

Not too mention smaller plotholes like Videl's hairstyle being different than on her wedding picture in Z and Kururin suddenly shrinking for Super but also suddenly growing back to his normal height in the last part of Z.

[SupremeKai25]

The Future Trunks arc did have a lot of tension because the Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor of the End of Z.

[Jord]

The Future Trunks arc did have a lot of tension because the Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor of the End of Z.

You are right about that one. That being said, only people from Future Trunks' timeline were in danger there.

[Grimlock]

Goku Black appears and he's so strong! Wow, the universe could be erased!....nope. We know Goku and co. end up ok.

What? What do you mean "nope"? The Universe was indeed erased. Please bear in mind that the whole climax took place in Future Trunks world, not in the present timeline, the Universe got erased and everyone died. The survivors were near something that allowed them to get away: the Time Machine.

Other than this, yeah. The 10-year-gap should be a place for stories like Tarble's OVA, minor events. We can't really call it a peaceful time, as the manga does so, anymore. Two tournaments one right after the other... Universe Survival saga should really have happened after AGE 784, Uub, Goten and Trunks would probably benefit from it. And although I liked the way Freeza was handled, I can't deny it he was there one more freaking time and obviously Majin Buu or Uub would be a better choice.

[sintzu]

I don't think it was as the majority if not all the events that played out in Super would've played out the same had they been set after EOZ.

[PFM18]

Obviously everybody is going to be ok anyway. Death means nothing in the series and regardless of what happens we always knew that the characters would be fine. Let's say that it happens after EOZ. Would you really expect or even have the slightest idea that the characters are all going to be dead and there isn't ultimately going to be a happy ending? No of course not. Where it took place made no difference outside of the fact that Uub, Goten and Trunks, would have had different roles had this taken place after EOZ

[Vegeta_Sama]

Honestly, who cares if it creates plotholes with GT? It was never canon anyway. I 'm glad for Super, since it finally put those GT canon debates to rest.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Honestly the issue with it being a midquel is that nothing in the setting was used for the requirement. If everyone was considering retiring anyway then why bother? Most of the other characters didn't do anything significant after ROF. Them using the timeframe where the characters were young was just superficial marketing. My issue is how if Gohan in ROF was going to have a career, then whats the difference? Stranger so that Gohan was literally a first year in high-school, took a year off for the Tournament, then now has a kid with Videl? Pan is also irrelevant because she is a baby and the whole thing about Uub being irrelevant is also stretched out because of how strong Goku is now. I only see this creating more issues because it wasn't EOZ. Not to mention Goten & Trunks not doing anything or growing up, yet as adolescence it would have been more reasonable for them to be that way. Goten literally did nothing in Super, so if he was EOZ Goten him just dating would have been the plausible reason. Gohan settling down 4 years after Pan was born would have made more sense for the space Gohan made for her which would have worked to justify him not training anymore or thinking his ultimate form was permanent (as he still had the look at EOZ rather than being skinny after 6 months).

I was t least hoping Super's ending would have fixed why Whis & Beerus aren't in GT, if they could have used the TOP arc to be their farewell from Goku & Co to make sense of this. But nope. Marketing.

The thing with death though is due to lack of tension. Its not that the characters don't stay dead, its that there is no sense of risk to give the audience the thought of death having impact. Goku died twice and people weren't thinking Goku would just come back, or when he had the heart disease. It was about the characters getting vulnerable losing a character in a way that separates them long enough or takes a sacrificial blow that is abrupt enough to feel like death. We knew Piccolo would be brought back in the Namek arc after Nappa killed him, which was why they went there (hence the process of working to bring them back is the tension), its that in Super nobody is ever put in that unsafe position to die. I don't even remember any time where it happened. If Death is this ease to reverse, then there wouldn't be weight to it.
With the Buu saga everyone was eaten which pushed the feeling that they were overwhelmed brutally enough to convey the loss that is brought with death even if nobody dies.

Honestly, who cares if it creates plotholes with GT? It was never canon anyway. I 'm glad for Super, since it finally put those GT canon debates to rest.

Those debates didn't hold any logic to them anyway, as Toei never alienates things to market based on canon. GT has always remained in the background as a part of the series material. People who jump on the train of yelling its not canon only do so to validate why they themselves dislike it, or justify their arbitrary reasons in hating GT to fit the meme.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Did you ever really believe a villian might actually win before knowing how Dragon Ball was going to end? It's a shonen manga, not Game of Thrones.

[Logania]

I think the only big mistake was making it 'canon' to the Dragon Ball franchise. Now the power scale has been so screwed, and there's a being Goku will never be able to surpass in power being a blue alien midget who acts like a 5 year old.

It's not like GT where it's a side story. This thing is gonna be in the same league of value as DB and DBZ which is embarrasing.

[Bergamo]

I think the only big mistake was making it 'canon' to the Dragon Ball franchise. Now the power scale has been so screwed, and there's a being Goku will never be able to surpass in power being a blue alien midget who acts like a 5 year old.

It's not like GT where it's a side story. This thing is gonna be in the same league of value as DB and DBZ which is embarrasing.

To be fair the Buu arc is canon.

[SupremeKai25]

The Future Trunks arc did have a lot of tension because the Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor of the End of Z.

You are right about that one. That being said, only people from Future Trunks' timeline were in danger there.

The Present timeline was also in danger. If Present Zamasu had successfully stolen Goku's body, Goku and his family would have been murdered like in Black's timeline.

[Saturnine]

DB Super actually did what it could to create consequences that are real but still don't collide with the end of Z. Future Trunks' timeline being erased is a big deal. U6, which we've grown to like, being erased - big deal (even tho it got restored). So yeah, Super did a great job of creating new sorts of high stakes.

[Nafno]

Those debates didn't hold any logic to them anyway, as Toei never alienates things to market based on canon. GT has always remained in the background as a part of the series material. People who jump on the train of yelling its not canon only do so to validate why they themselves dislike it, or justify their arbitrary reasons in hating GT to fit the meme.

No, people say that GT is not canon because it is not canon. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. I like some movies and filler, but that does not make it canon. Funny how you accuse people of justifying arbitrary reasons while you use arbitrary reasons to justifiy your accusations.

And Toei and marketing have nothing to do with what is canon and what is not. The concept of canon actually exists as a way of opposing corporate and marketing decisions.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Those debates didn't hold any logic to them anyway, as Toei never alienates things to market based on canon. GT has always remained in the background as a part of the series material. People who jump on the train of yelling its not canon only do so to validate why they themselves dislike it, or justify their arbitrary reasons in hating GT to fit the meme.

No, people say that GT is not canon because it is not canon. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. I like some movies and filler, but that does not make it canon. Funny how you accuse people of justifying arbitrary reasons while you use arbitrary reasons to justifiy your accusations.

And Toei and marketing have nothing to do with what is canon and what is not. The concept of canon actually exists as a way of opposing corporate and marketing decisions.

I don't get why so many people don't understand that non canon is not a bad thing. There's a lot of non canon awesome stuff, in my opinion on par with the main series, like some of the movies. GT just happens to be non canon, AND shitty.

[Lord Beerus]

It doesn't matter what period you set Dragon Ball after the Majin Boo arc, as long as the cast have two sets of wish granting MacGuffins that negate any consequences brought upon to them by any given conflict, tension will never reach the same level it was prior to the cast going to Namek.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

No, people say that GT is not canon because it is not canon. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking.

Actually it does, regarding reference or discussion. Saying GT is noncanon has been arbitrary and always has. People who push it as a discredit to GT see it as how they can justify their own dislike of it. GT never left the franchise simply because some narrow minded people like to pretend it did in their world.

I like some movies and filler, but that does not make it canon.

Thats not even my basis of reasoning.

And Toei and marketing have nothing to do with what is canon and what is not. The concept of canon actually exists as a way of opposing corporate and marketing decisions.

Which in itself is arbitrary reasoning in this fandom. The only consistency is to judge the movies and filler as such because it was created in parallel to the original run of the manga.

I don't get why so many people don't understand that non canon is not a bad thing. There's a lot of non canon awesome stuff, in my opinion on par with the main series, like some of the movies. GT just happens to be non canon, AND shitty.

What I was saying, is that people use 'canon' more so post-manga to decide what is acceptable to bash, even if the logic is not universally applied. I could claim the Super anime is no different to GT in it by technical standards being applicable to non-canon. Its shitty to a sector of people, has a lot of filler-like nonsense as well. Can that be deemed non-canon? People will claim Super's anime is canon in parallel to GT, simply because they who say this like it over GT.

[Vegeta_Sama]

I don't get why so many people don't understand that non canon is not a bad thing. There's a lot of non canon awesome stuff, in my opinion on par with the main series, like some of the movies. GT just happens to be non canon, AND shitty.

What I was saying, is that people use 'canon' more so post-manga to decide what is acceptable to bash, even if the logic is not universally applied. I could claim the Super anime is no different to GT in it by technical standards being applicable to non-canon. Its shitty to a sector of people, has a lot of filler-like nonsense as well. Can that be deemed non-canon? People will claim Super's anime is canon in parallel to GT, simply because they who say this like it over GT.

Well, you're right on that, most people throw around the word canon while forgetting about its actual meaning, like it's some sort of seal of approval. But, I think that Super is considered canon because its foundations are born from Toriyama's head, unlike with GT.

[Nafno]

Actually it does, regarding reference or discussion. Saying GT is noncanon has been arbitrary and always has. People who push it as a discredit to GT see it as how they can justify their own dislike of it. GT never left the franchise simply because some narrow minded people like to pretend it did in their world.

If people consider that noncanon is a reason for not liking something, that is their choice, as if they want to say they don't like GT because it has 64 episodes. That does not change the fact that GT is not canon, a saying so has no quality value implied, as saying that it has 64 episodes has no quality value implied.

Thats not even my basis of reasoning.

I am struggling to get the basis of your reasoning.

Which in itself is arbitrary reasoning in this fandom. The only consistency is to judge the movies and filler as such because it was created in parallel to the original run of the manga.

No it isn't. And having created in parallel to the original run of the manga has also nothing, (I emphasize this, NOTHING) to do with being canonical or not.

I think you either don't know or don't want to know what canon means.

Leaving the religious origin of the word aside, the concept was created by Sherlock Holmes fans to distinguish the original works accepted by Conan Doyle under his continuity from the other works written by different authors. This is what canon means, an GT is not canon under this meaning.

With time, companies saw that being canon had a commercial value. People were more attracted to canon products. Consequently, they started labelling products as canon, even though that was not the original meaning (Star Wars comes to mind, both the crazy canon pyramid of the old days and the Disney use of the word canon that ironically oppose what canon means). As Toei has never stated what is canon and what isn't, GT is also not canon even if you wanted to use this meaning.

Granted, due to the evergrowing complexity of media, sometimes is very difficult to pinpoint what canon is, since sometimes there are many writers and directors, different showrunners and a lack of a person that keeps everything under control. So we could have an interesting debate about the canonicity of Super, the manga, anime, Toriyama's draft and so on. But then again, that does not change the fact that GT is not canon.

[Dragono]

No, people say that GT is not canon because it is not canon. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking.

Actually it does, regarding reference or discussion. Saying GT is noncanon has been arbitrary and always has. People who push it as a discredit to GT see it as how they can justify their own dislike of it. GT never left the franchise simply because some narrow minded people like to pretend it did in their world.

I like some movies and filler, but that does not make it canon.

Thats not even my basis of reasoning.

And Toei and marketing have nothing to do with what is canon and what is not. The concept of canon actually exists as a way of opposing corporate and marketing decisions.

Which in itself is arbitrary reasoning in this fandom. The only consistency is to judge the movies and filler as such because it was created in parallel to the original run of the manga.

I don't get why so many people don't understand that non canon is not a bad thing. There's a lot of non canon awesome stuff, in my opinion on par with the main series, like some of the movies. GT just happens to be non canon, AND shitty.

What I was saying, is that people use 'canon' more so post-manga to decide what is acceptable to bash, even if the logic is not universally applied. I could claim the Super anime is no different to GT in it by technical standards being applicable to non-canon. Its shitty to a sector of people, has a lot of filler-like nonsense as well. Can that be deemed non-canon? People will claim Super's anime is canon in parallel to GT, simply because they who say this like it over GT.

No, people say GT isn't canon because like the movies, it was written by Toei, not Toriyama. It has nothing to do with quality. DRagon ball minus is canon and thats why so many people hate it because its official . Ressurection F is canon and thats why so many hate it because its official.

You could argue that GT is canon to the anime of Z but Super and Toriyama have made it downright impossible for it to exist.