"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

I'm actually curious on how things will unfold in the manga. Its definitely being presented in a very different order.

[Zephyr]

Goku, you fucking asshole.

I'm kind of disappointed that Hit still didn't actively try to actually kill/assassinate Jiren at the expense of his continued participation. But I'm glad that he's widened his approach to combat since the previous tournament (both trying to rely less on the time skip, and inventing a new technique with a similar flavor). Was nice to see him repay Goku's surrendering from last time, as well. I don't remember how the anime handled the particular bit with Hit slowing Jiren down, but it was more succinct (and thus memorable) to me here.

It is supposed to be a lighthearted comedy, silly, with action and is supposed to entertain with it. And it takes elements from tons of things that happened before it or that happened inbetween the life of those who worked on it (e.g. Toriyama-san). Dragon Ball is absolutely generic.

I know this is two days, and several pages, old/late, but I've just now had the chance to catch up with the thread (I don't understand how anyone can tolerate this thread before the 21st), and this post was particularly egregious to me. I think it is astronomically incorrect to assert that Dragon Ball is "generic". Of course, when you bullet point the most broad, surface level, generic boxes that the series checks, and don't acknowledge much of anything else (namely: the style of the author himself), it can appear incredibly generic. Comedic, action-packed, hell: entertaining. If that's all you think Dragon Ball is, then it's no wonder you think it's generic: those labels are generic to the point where they aren't even really descriptive. That'd be like calling Pulp Fiction a generic action film, or something, with not an ounce of indication that one even knows who Quentin Tarantino is, or what his authorial and directorial style is, or what his influences are.

Like any good piece of art (I'd tentatively argue), Dragon Ball greatly reflects the incredibly distinctive personality of its author, Akira Toriyama. His irreverence for just about anything and everything shines through in the work, from the "average Joe" nature of the gods, to the "bargain sale" nature of a "legendary" transformation, to the way that previously important people and places naturally fall to the wayside.

Writing by the seat of his pants, his story was allowed to grow very organically, in real time, rather than being methodically planned ages in advance, like some elaborate Wiki article with dialog bubbles and actions scenes to fill in over time. Oftentimes, he would write himself into corners, forcing himself to creatively escape from them. This leads to unexpected developments, but ones that feel engaging and natural. He's along for a ride just as much as we are. Moreover, he's seeking primarily to entertain himself, largely at the expense of, and out of spite for, his own fans and their expectations.

The characters feel like real people, all with their own selfish drives and desires and goals (which often get in the way of altruistic aims), and they indeed change and grow as individuals as time goes on (sometimes morally, sometimes closer to one another, sometimes both). That's just how people are. Goku in particular grows into a less moral and more reckless person, and is yet still just as charmingly innocent, in a way. Time indeed moves forward in Dragon Ball, with characters aging at realistic paces, again with plenty of characters falling into the background and even out of that as time pushes ever forward. That's just how life goes.

The specific iconography of the series, though, with the martial arts uniforms, and super human feats of chi mastery, not to mention the themes and tropes, are fairly generic as far as Wuxia media is concerned. But even there, even though it's largely lifting tropes and basic story ideas from other media (again, Wuxia media, not "generic anime"), the lens through which it shines, the flavor and style it is given, is anything but generic. Because it's not merely "Wuxia tropes in a manga", it's "Wuxia tropes in a manga....drawn by Akira Toriyama".

When I think of "generic anime" (and I'm indeed forced to come up with my own image, since one wasn't really given for Dragon Ball conform to, so forgive me if it looks like I'm just pulling some criteria out of my ass that Dragon Ball doesn't conform to just to prove a point), I think of constantly-cartoonishly-exaggerated caricatures interacting with one another, riffing on anime-specific tropes and references. It hardly feels like I'm watching anything resembling hand-drawn humans (read: people) interacting and reacting to one another in realistic ways. More specifically, I suppose, this feels like a description of your generic Shonen demographic anime. In both cases, I'm indeed watching a cartoon, but in something like Dragon Ball, it tends to not feel that way. It tends to feel like I'm watching people interact, come into conflict, and grow. In a more "generic" anime, it certainly feels like I'm watching cartoon characters. I'm not really seeing how Dragon Ball is generic by that standard. By Toriyama stories (to my knowledge), it's fairly standard fare. But it certainly stands out among the rest of the crop through authorial charm and flourish alone. But maybe you mean something else; by all means.

But, even after all of this, even insisting that "generic anime" is really, truly descriptive of anything is a tough sell for me. Anime and Manga are much more diverse than you (seem to) give it credit for. Gundam 79, Berserk, Akira, anything by Satoshi Kon, anything by Naoki Urasawa, Evangelion, and the like hardly feel "generic". But, then again, most of them aren't aimed at small children, so I think some depth and nuance is to be expected. Or maybe they're outliers. How many outliers need to exist before the idea of "generic-ness" loses meaning?

[Exline]

Goku, you fucking asshole.

I'm kind of disappointed that Hit still didn't actively try to actually kill/assassinate Jiren at the expense of his continued participation. But I'm glad that he's widened his approach to combat since the previous tournament (both trying to rely less on the time skip, and inventing a new technique with a similar flavor). Was nice to see him repay Goku's surrendering from last time, as well. I don't remember how the anime handled the particular bit with Hit slowing Jiren down, but it was more succinct (and thus memorable) to me here.

God I know right? I really wanted to see the kind of lethal techniques he had at his disposal. Though, the Time Lag technique was great nonetheless. The dialogue exchanges between Jiren, Goku, and Hit are so great. Toyotaro seems to understand these characters very well, especially Goku. Very typical of him to want to fight Jiren his own way. I also enjoy that we get a hint of what's to come. Goku is teasing his UI and it sounds as if he's been working on it for a while. I'm guessing next chapter is going to be a rematch between them. Hopefully no Spirit Bomb this time, pretty dumb move at the time imo.


I also agree with your claims on how Dragon Ball is not "generic" at all. Stuff like that angers me, as well as people calling this series "predictable" for the dumbest of occassions. Never gonna forget the guy who told me "if toyotaro does the opposite of this in the manga, it's predictable." Really throwing that word around where it shouldn't be used.

Ok, then it sounds like it isn't his fault, not that I thought there was a big problem in the first place. Really it's the manga industries fault putting to much pressure and time restraints on the mangakas.

It's all good!

Toyotaro has his faults as an artist, but in this particular case he has a good reason for not being able to bring his A-game. I'm not sure who okayed his schedule and decided to do things this way without giving him a break, but he had to crunch to get this one out.

Regardless, the chapter is enjoyable. I reread and I did notice Jiren's oddly shaped head the second time
It didn't really ruin my enjoyment because Jiren's best panels were the ones that caught my attention the most. If that scene with Jiren uppercutting Hit was wonky, I would've had more of a problem with the art, but for a scene like Jiren getting hit where he is drawn in a smaller panel, it doesn't bother me too much.

Why are we even acknowledging the "this chapter looks like garbage" comments? People say this every month no matter what. This whole process of criticizing every detail of Toyotaro's work is absurd. This chapter doesn't look any better or worse than usual.

Toriyama is leagues above Toyotaro. In my opinion, Toriyama is far above many other professional manga artists; mangaka or not. Is Toyotaro at the level of other popular Jump artists? No matter how much I appreciate the guy, his career is based on imitation. He is an amateur. There are a lot of things he can work on to improve as an artist, and he understands that. That being said, he's continued to impress me with his DBS manga. His art is great most of the time, his creative contributions to the story have been very satisfying, and his work as a whole has kept me much happier as a DB fan than the anime has. Toriyama believes in him, so the least we can do is give him the benefit of the doubt.

Loving the defense for this manga. It gets too much shit than it really deserves.

I'm perfectly fine with his take on Super. I feel he's doing much better than most people on the anime staff.

People are getting so annoyed by the manga because their characters don't do what THEY want them to do. It's annoying how they want the author to just cater to them. The anime did that and we complained about it's constant fanservice. But apparently Toyo gets more flack just for subverting expectations. I really cannot understand some people in this community sometimes when it comes to what they want. It's as if they don't even know.

[emperior]

Toyotaro didn't deliver this month. This chapter was clearly rushed, which is why there is some pretty good art in the beginning but then it kinda goes downhill except for a few important panels. Nothing too horrible, sure, but Toyotaro really has to study the anatomy better because a few of his errors could easily be fixed. There's no excuse for this, really. I'm also not a fan of his big necks as they don't fit his leaner bodies and I would rather him draw the necks thinner.

As for the story content, I didn't really like it. There was some interesting dialogue but I didn't feel any weight to the battle, nor any emotion.
I liked the bit between Goku and Jiren, when Jiren tells him he should have picked a opponent on his level and calls him a nameless warrior, to which Goku shouts his name. Unfortunately by the end of the chapter Jiren already address Goku for his name, which is too soon in my opinion. It was also weird how Goku was fighting together with Hit seconds before saying he wants to beat Jiren by himself.

Hit going out this soon was also quite disappointing. We don't even get to see why he started fighting Jiren, and he has left the arena without a single elimination. Him suddenly getting on Goku's level is also strange considering how weaker he was in the manga. But I liked how in the manga he decided to work on his weaknesses by focusing less on his time-skip and more on his power, and how he came up with a technique which is similar in concept to time-skip but also the opposite of it. I still prefer how the anime handled Hit by a long shot, and I like him to keep his strange powers and improve upon them instead of dropping them.

The Goku + Piccolo vs Raditz reference was also quite obvious, I would just like it if both Toyotaro and the anime staff stopped relying on nostalgia and referencing the original manga.

[Zephyr]

I also agree with your claims on how Dragon Ball is not "generic" at all. Stuff like that angers me, as well as people calling this series "predictable" for the dumbest of occassions. Never gonna forget the guy who told me "if toyotaro does the opposite of this in the manga, it's predictable." Really throwing that word around where it shouldn't be used.

I'm less angered by it, and more bewildered and disappointed.

[Cetra]

I know this is two days, and several pages, old/late, but I've just now had the chance to catch up with the thread (I don't understand how anyone can tolerate this thread before the 21st), and this post was particularly egregious to me. I think it is astronomically incorrect to assert that Dragon Ball is "generic". Of course, when you bullet point the most broad, surface level, generic boxes that the series checks, and don't acknowledge much of anything else (namely: the style of the author himself), ...

I observe and evaluate this with the lense of a computer scientist, because that is exactly what and who I am. I have a lot to to with classification and amusingly enough the word "Generics" have a lot to do with what I do as well. That goes too far though, no excourse now.

Anyway, I rate Dragon Ball for what it is supposed to be. The "style of Toriyama-san" does not come into play here because every, I repeat every, person that creates something, even those that try to imitate bring in their own style as it is not possible not to do that. If you want to take that to say something is generic, than nothing is generic. I as a computer scientist am used to the word "generic" in combination to a meta-datatype that can be written in advance so later you can derive others that follow the rules of this meta-datatype and make it easier for yourself when working (which is quite funny actually because a lot of people have a problem programing with generics but whatever, I wanted to bring in some irony here).
Anyway, I follow Dragon Ball for 20 years. I have read all 42 vols., I have seen the entire anime of DB, Z, GT and Super. And just as everyone else with time and growth I observe and perceive more and more differently the next time as the rest of our new experience comes into play and influences our perception. I always was incredibly analytical to the point of being neurotic though. And I never found anything that would make it impossible for me to classify Dragon Ball in a way they do. What I do find masses of though is Dragon Ball fans that try to treat it like a holy grail and don't actually care about what they say, as long as they can defend. I would never do such a thing. I will not defend a show I love in a way of treating it like something pure and perfect because it will never be able to be such a thing. The point is, I read Dragon Ball so often. But really no trait I can find that makes this show the way it is is unique enough for it to be classified different. I will always love the artstyle of Toriyama-san. I have learned from it. But that is not really something I am looking for when talking about generic shows and if one wants to stretch it so far to say such things should also count, then it still is an art style that, while being the personal invention of Akira Toriyama, still has a lot in common with others. But I guess if we want to go the extra route and count things like artstyle then I can give you that. That is really the only outstanding thing for me. In the end Toriyama-san is the person who never intend anything to be incredibly complex and special and I also don't find anything where I would say "the man accidentally brought in these incredible characteristics". Maybe I am too spoiled from knowing so many other fictional stories though but I have to evaluate with that in mind.

Writing by the seat of his pants, his story was allowed to grow very organically, in real time, rather than being methodically planned ages in advance, ...
The characters feel like real people, all with their own selfish drives and desires and goals (which often get in the way of altruistic aims), and they indeed change and grow as individuals as time goes on ...

I already mentioned that using the argument of something living in the moment has nothing to do with something not being generic. It is all about the results. Tons of people are lazy and do something 5 before 12. Also your argument of him "writing" something is something that I can tell you have more of a problem with than me using the word "generic" because I always said and will always say Dragon Ball hardly has any writing. I am a massive Role-Playing Game fan, I read a lot and am thoroughly interested in story-heavy/narratively driven pieces of work. What happens over the course of the "story" though is so sparse it is not even funny.

When I think of "generic anime" (and I'm indeed forced to come up with my own image, since one wasn't really given for Dragon Ball conform to, so forgive me if it looks like I'm just pulling some criteria out of my ass that Dragon Ball doesn't conform to just to prove a point), I think of constantly-cartoonishly-exaggerated caricatures interacting with one another, riffing on anime-specific tropes and references.

That's your way of thinking and that is fine. I prefer to classify it in a more scientific way. As mentioned, I read and play a lot and Dragon Ball consists of multiple traits for which I can throw it in the same drawer while not presenting me one actually really good and outstanding trait for which I can say "okay, you belong in the other drawer". As a matter of fact Dragon Ball even does not really have anything special that I am looking for so I always wonder why I even love it so much because it is substantially lacking what I prefer. But in the end it is actually always thanks to it being silly, light-hearted, playing a nostalgic role and simply an easy show where you can enjoy it for what it is - not incredibly deep and complex (though I am glad the Toei writers did some approaches for Super here) but a charming, silly and "awesome feeling" show. Nothing it really has to awake this feeling inside of me is anything that I have not seen 1 million times in my life though. And traits being presented with he personal way of the other does a) not make them any less the same traits that appear all the time, b) as said would result if we really want to use it as a counter argument, in the argument of nothing being perceived as generic as everyone has "their own way" and c) to be honest, even those "personal touches" I can see in at least very, very similiar fashion in other shows, such as the dorkiness summoning the comedic feeling or characters making something funnier because you would never expect something from guys like them (e.g. Vegeta) and that of course is just a bunch of examples. The list is endless.

[Amir]

So Goku is Vegeta now? His reasoning for dropping the fight was supid too, he said there's still a wall he needed to climb, but would it really kill him to first try and defeat Jiren together? I mean he can always try UI later in the ToP, why waste a good chance like this you might ask? Because he just wanted to fight Jiren on his own with that stupid saiyan pride, Goku is not Vegeta, and it's the fate of the universe here once again.

[The gr]

One of the weakest chapter top it off with weak action.

We start off with a cool little fight ruined by the fact that Goku is in SS2,is just stupid and is fake tension at is finnest, wouldn't SSG handled those guys better than SS2 but i did liked the panel of him going SSB against Jiren and Dyspo was cool.

I don't liked how Hit is fighting Jiren this early, I would have definitely prefer if Hit took some U11 guys prior to this.Hit was kinda cool in this chapter by saving Goku and freezing Jiren however is annoying that Goku didn't assist him in the plan for that damn saiyan pride,gosh this is annoying.

And man Jiren look ugly in some pages, Toyotaro definitely have a problem drawing this character,at the very he is an intimidating character however Hit loss didn't carried any weight because he was weak in U6 tournament so bleh.

[Spider-Man]

Comments on this chapter

-I find it really stupid that Goku didn't went SSG or SSB against Toppo and Dyspo.

-Hit was cool in this chapter but I feel like he need to eliminated someone prior to the fight against Jiren and the way he got eliminated was just anticlimactic.

-Still suprised that U11 haven't dropped out a member yet.

-Hit took out his skirt, I find it odd because I always it was part of his trench coat, but he looks cool.

-I was really angry that Goku didn't team up with Hit aggainst Jiren all because of that stupid saiyan pride gosh it's getting annoying.

-Jiren look really ugly, he look like el hermano in some pages.

Weak chapter, is a shame really because I was enjoying the manga up until this point, I hope next month is better.

[TKA]

Great chapter. Instead of "JIREN STRONGER THAN TIME" (which is effectively the same as saying "JIREN STRONGER THAN THE COLOR YELLOW!"), it showed Jiren outsmarting Hit. It's not just that Jiren overpowered the technique, it's that he played possum and then countered Hit to knock him out of the ring, thus ending the technique. If he had to do that, it means he couldn't keep fighting like that; this presents Jiren as both strong and smart, while also preserving Hit's status as a "badass". That's good. All the characters were behaving as characters (Vermoud being cocky and mean, Champa being boisterous, Hit's confidence, Goku's unwillingness to double team, the 4 exempt Gods of Destruction going over the proceedings thus far etc), the power scaling made sense and the pace was great.

Don't see any art problems.

[Doctor.]

Jiren was terribly drawn this chapter. His forehead was huge.

A typical flavorless chapter by Toyotaro. Nothing egregiously bad, but nothing too exciting either. I liked the final two panels with Jiren and Goku's dynamic. Even still, this is mediocrity at its finest; what a disappointment of a follow-up to Toriyama's manga.

[Liquir]

Jiren was terribly drawn this chapter. His forehead was huge.

Agree. For me personally, it was the only major thing that bothered me this chapter. In some pages his head would be Egg-shaped while in others round and so on. Toyotaro needs to work on that detail further on.

[Lord Beerus]

Some notes I made while reading Chapter 35:

- I have no idea why Goku is using SSJ2 against Toppo when he know he's just as strong as his perfected SSJB form. Not to mention I have no idea why Toppo thinks it's a good idea to start sandbagging against a enemy that he knows can use God ki. I didn't like this fake tension in the anime and I certainly didn't like it here.
- Didn't take too long for Hit to get his ass kicked...
- Dyspo had a very impressive first showing. His speed is being much better utilized.
- Jiren being the stone wall is visually impressive
- The fight choreography looks not that appealing at times.
- Hit dropping kicking Jiren and saving Goku from being eliminated was the highlight of the chapter.
- Hit favouring pure strength over his Time-Skip abilities is narrative choice I deeply resent. It just strips so much of what made Hit stand out originally.
- Goku and Hit teaming up looks pretty nice
- Goku just up and abandoning Hit because he wants to beat Jiren alone was such a huge douchebag move.
- The foreshadowing to Ultra Instinct was nice.
- Hit's Time Lag ability is something I would have loved to have seen in the anime...
- ...It's a shame that is was never major deal in the story as it turned out Jiren was no selling the technique the whole time.
- The direction that the battle between Hit and Jiren took just feel boring as a whole.
- I really appreciate Jiren being much smarter in battle, as well as more talkative, in the early stages of the TOP.
- Hit being eliminated in the way he does carries no weight in the story because Hit was never treated as a major threat before or during the Tournament Of Power.
- I really enjoyed Jiren recognizing who Goku is by the end of the his fight with Hit

Well... that quite of a snoozefest of chapter.

While I find the handling of characters like Dyspo and Jiren to be decent, Hit was colossally mismanaged. I hate the fact the Hit just gave up on his Time-Skip abilities after Goku broke through it in the Champa arc. Why couldn't Toyotaro have take a page from Anime Hit and have Hit just improve on his Time-Skip abilities instead of just abandoning them? Why take away the trait that made him such a unique character to begin with? You can expand on it and maintain its mystique and practicality in combat. You didn't need to turn Hit into another "We just need to hit him REALLY hard" type of fighter. There's already plenty of combatants like that in Dragon Ball. The introduction of Hit's Time Lag ability seemed incredibly ingenious, but even that it didn't even matter in the end because Jiren was sandbagging throughout the fight was "impaired" with that technique with him and just knocked Hit out with one punch. What a massive fucking waste of a character like Hit.

The art at times looked a bit wonky, Jiren being the major offender of this, but nothing about it was enough to take me out of the experience.

Most of the actions scenes just fell flat with me. I just couldn't shake the feeling that some of the battle choreography was really repetitive, or at the very least, I had seen action like this in the manga before but done much better.

[Simere]

Goku didn't stop fighting because of "saiyan pride", or because he's an "asshole" or a "douchebag"'; it's because he realizes the best way to push his limits is to fight alone, and he deemed that to be the best/only route of winning:

Otherwise, we probably don't have a chance. It's the only option I've got.

[CriticalThinker]

Found this chapter to be pretty underwhelming overall and is so far my least favourite chapter of the arc. The only things I really liked was Goku and Hit fighting Jiren together and Goku fighting Toppo and Dyspo. I still think Hit vs Dyspo is the best fight Hit got because I don't really like either version of his fight against Jiren.

[TKA]

Goku didn't stop fighting because of "saiyan pride", or because he's an "asshole" or a "douchebag"'; it's because he realizes the best way to push his limits is to fight alone, and he deemed that to be the best/only route of winning:

Otherwise, we probably don't have a chance. It's the only option I've got.

Goku knows the last time he teamed up with someone against a stronger opponent he was left with a gaping hole in his gut, and then the guy kidnapped his kid and indoctrinated him.

[sintzu]

I'm actually curious on how things will unfold in the manga. Its definitely being presented in a very different order.

That's the best thing about the anime and manga being different as it keeps things interesting.

One thing I'd like the manga to do is give spot light to more new characters like that one Gohan fought from U10 who was talking about his family.

[prince212]

7/10 chapter . Art is not that bad , I agree some small panels are not nice if you zoom them , but it’s ok .
I liked hit characterization, I didn’t like Goku declining to help hit right after he helped him , considering the differences in power and how useless he was again Jiren, seems ungrateful as hell
I hope Krillin comments are not gonna be 3-4 times per chapter like in this one , I rather see more fights .
I missed a big panel with all the fights .
Jiren is the man , he really intimidates .

Toriyama is leagues above Toyotaro. In my opinion, Toriyama is far above many other professional manga artists; mangaka or not. Is Toyotaro at the level of other popular Jump artists? No matter how much I appreciate the guy, his career is based on imitation. He is an amateur. There are a lot of things he can work on to improve as an artist, and he understands that. That being said, he's continued to impress me with his DBS manga. His art is great most of the time, his creative contributions to the story have been very satisfying, and his work as a whole has kept me much happier as a DB fan than the anime has. Toriyama believes in him, so the least we can do is give him the benefit of the doubt.

I agree with all except Toyo amateur definition , he’s a professional, they pay him for that

[TKA]

Also, Jiren remembering Goku's name because Goku saw through his strategy is way cooler than him doing it because Goku punches good. It shows Jiren is more than just some strong guy; he also has wisdom. The manga is slowly unveiling more and more about his character every time he shows up, which is good. The other version spent months with him being the same static character, and revealed nothing about him until it was crunch time.

[Doctor.]

Also, Jiren remembering Goku's name because Goku saw through his strategy is way cooler than him doing it because Goku punches good. It shows Jiren is more than just some strong guy; he also has wisdom. The manga is slowly unveiling more and more about his character every time he shows up, which is good. The other version spent months with him being the same static character, and revealed nothing about him until it was crunch time.

If Jiren's entire shtick remains the same ("Strength is absolute"), then it's a pointless and actually counter-intuitive change to make him wise.