Now that DBS is over what do you think of "two base theory"?

[Lord Beerus]

This is has been a long running issue in Dragon Ball.

Goku and Vegeta go to hell and back to become stronger after the Saiyan arc, and Freeza just waltzes in and makes their effort nearly meaningless, if not for the Saiyans getting that contrived "beaten up very badly" power up. Then when Goku and Vegeta become uber strong after Namek, along come #16, #17 and #18 to undo all that work, forcing them to reinvent the SSJ wheel. And when they do, Cell arrives and sets them back again. And when they overcome that obstacle, Majin Boo arrives. And they exhaust every gimmick technique or power-up to keep up with him. And then when they get through with him, Beerus becomes a thing. And then after training with Whis, who by all accounts is the greatest martial artist teacher Dragon Ball has ever had, for several months, Golden Freeza pops out of nowhere and rivals Goku and Vegeta's new founded power under the tutelage of Whis. Then cue the other universes...

I guess what I am trying to say is... bigger obstacles will always be a thing for Goku and Vegeta to overcome, regards of how much work they put in to reach new realms of strength or how contrived the nature of the obstacle the have to face is.

It may seem a bit depressing that for all of Goku and Vegeta's, a randomly plucked Saiyan from another universe can match them in strength in their base forms, but it is what it is.

Besides, there were no guarantees that other universe would have to abides the power hierarchy that Universe 7 had set

I think a fair amount of the old obstacles do work, not all but a fair amount do. Freeza being this classic galactic emperor of incredible power makes sense for the guy who's essentially Vegeta's boss, 19 and 20 have the energy absorption to boost them into higher echelons of strength, Cell is a monster composed of everyone's disparate elements, Majin Boo is the classical ancient evil unleashed on an unsuspecting galaxy. Really, it's 17, 18 and 16 who really stick out for having no good, even story convention reason to function as villains.

Beerus feels wrong to exist in a world where Majin Boo already periodically destroys worlds then goes into hibernation, Golden Freeza is a big load of bullshit, Cabba is a rookie Saiyan who can stomp basically everyone from Z in his Base form no problem, Hit apparently never trained a day in his life if his basic use of Time Skip is any indication yet he's somehow Blue tier, Future Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan, 17 can masturbate off screen for a few days or years and catch up Goku and Vegeta with not even a tenth of the effective training methods available to them,...

I'm not saying that old obstacles do not work in practice. It's more to do with the somewhat arbitrary nature of their introduction. Freeza ruling most of the galaxy and being the strongest adversary the universe has ever known would be fine... if we didn't know later find out that Majin Boo had exist much earlier than he did and was running amok through out the universe for God knows how long. Cell is fine in a biologically technique, but his origins are absurd if you think about them for more than 60 seconds. You've already pointed out how much of an issue #16, #17 and #18 are, so I have nothing to add to that.

And as far as off-screen training goes, we are way past the point of raising an issue with that. Piccolo went from weaker than Third Form Freeza to being arguably as a strong as SSJ Vegeta and Goku by doing... something... for three years. And in an alternate timeline, Trunks and Gohan were able to jerk themselves for an unspecified amount of time and become SSJ's. (And kind in mind, in the manga version of events, Future Trunks was already a SSJ by the time Future Gohan bit the dust.)

[PFM18]

And as far as off-screen training goes, we are way past the point of raising an issue with that. Piccolo went from weaker than Third Form Freeza to being arguably as a strong as SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo by doing... something... for three years. And in an alternate timeline, Trunks and Gohan were able to jerk themselves for an unspecified amount of time and become SSJ's. (And kind in mind, in the manga version of events, Future Trunks was already a SSJ by the time Future Gohan bit the dust.)

THANK YOU! Nobody ever draws attention to Piccolo suddenly being able to keep pace with the Saiyans who just got a 50x multiplier thrown on top of them. He gets a tremendous boost for twiddling his thumbs for three years off screen! The best poster on Kanzenshuu has spoken

[Mister_Popo]

If he does have a baseform that would exceed SSG

He doesn't. When Goku goes SSB then the narrator and King Kai state that Goku has surpassed SSG. These statement would be redundant and nonsensical if he had already surpassed SSG in his base form. This implies that only THEN did he surpass SSB once he goes SSB.

We are told during BoG that SSJ=SSG and SSJ=Base/50. Therefore, RoF Base Goku=SSG/50+his gains from training with Whis. So if he managed to be 5x stronger than he was when he showed up on Whis's planet, he would still only be a tenth of what he was as a SSG during BoG.


You are automatically implying his starting base power at the beginning of ROF is exactly the same as his base at the end of BOG.
This may be your headcanon (which i even want to respect), but please don't consider it as a given truth.
'RoF Base Goku=SSG/50+his gains from training with Whis' is mere speculation. It's never affirmed somehwere in the story. You are taking it for granted he kept everything he gained at the end of BOG.
If Goku would not have used God-Ki whilst going full power 'base' in his fight with Freeza, which is the case according to your statements, that implies as well he could still stack on his classic mutipliers SSJ1, 2, 3 (he does not use God-Ki, so that gap is still monstrous between base / God-Ki) before even thinking of becoming SSJG of SSJB. That basically means you have an extremely strong base anyway. He doesn't need to go Blue according to that principle. He just has to use SSJ1 to go well beyond SSJG. So then we are stacked with the same old problem: why is every new opponent he does use SSJ1 against that extremely strong? We are not talking about Blue or Red being a necessity to pass SSJG, because that difference would be beyond the imaginary high and certainly not needed. In his fight against Golden Freeza he probably would have been just fine with SSJ1.

For all clear intent: i am not trying to explain things from the moment when the ROF movie is made. I just try to put things in the broader perspective of Super (when the classic forms and definetely when SSJG came back) and what this implied for base strength within continuity of the rest of the story.

If you would add a Blue or Red -multiplier to such a massively strong baseform, you'd get a monster that makes the angels tremble in fear.

Yes, that would result in quite the monster. The "Red" multiplier appears to have dramatically decreased based on what we see in the ToP as I explain earlier in this post.

Well, i explained in my post above why that is the case. According to your own theory, you would apply such dramaticly strong SSJG or SSJB. They are obviously high, but they cannot be that strong, since Goku has to use them a lot during TOP against opponents that even with rigorous imagination cannot even approach those levels of strength.

[PFM18]

You are automatically implying his starting base power at the beginning of ROF is exactly the same as his base at the end of BOG.

Well, no I am not. I literally said otherwise the sentence before you posted this. Like I said, even if Goku got 5x stronger in between BoG and RoF with his training with Whis, he would still only be a tenth as strong as SSG.(I would say 5x is a bit much considering it was a fairly short time.)

Wait by "beginning of RoF" are you counting the time when Vegeta was on Whis's planet?

This may be your headcanon (which i even want to respect), but please don't consider it as a given truth.

Like I said, that isn't my headcanon since that isn't even what I said. Such a statement would imply Goku didn't get any stronger by training with Whis.

'RoF Base Goku=SSG/50+his gains from training with Whis' is mere speculation. It's never affirmed somehwere in the story. You are taking it for granted he kept everything he gained at the end of BOG.

It isn't stated exactly that way but that is what the story is telling us. Goku not retaining the power he gained at the end of BoG would make no sense. It is never stated nor implied that he lost that power-up and in indirectly implies that he kept it. Goku was talking about how Vegeta was massively stronger but still might be stronger than him despite the fact that Goku was barely training he was farming for Chi-Chi in the time between this moment and BoG. For Goku to be Vegeta's equal he would have to have retained the boost he got against Beerus.

If Goku would not have used God-Ki whilst going full power 'base' in his fight with Freeza, which is the case according to your statements, that implies as well he could still stack on his classic mutipliers SSJ1, 2, 3 (he does not use God-Ki, so that gap is still monstrous between base / God-Ki) before even thinking of becoming SSJG of SSJB. That basically means you have an extremely strong base anyway.

Yes, that does mean an extremely strong base. Yes, that does mean that he could stack on the SSJ multipliers. Yes, the gap between Base and using the God Ki of SSG/SSB is monstrous. What do you mean the "gap between base and God Ki without thinking of becoming SSG/SSB." There is no using God Ki without the god transformations.

He doesn't need to go Blue according to that principle

What? No. Why would he not need to go Blue just because his base is strong and he can stack the SSJ multipliers?

why is every new opponent he does use SSJ1 against that extremely strong?

As Lord Beerus explained, that is the nature of the series. The new opponent is always stronger than the previous one.

In his fight against Golden Freeza he probably would have been just fine with SSJ1.

What? No. This just means Golden Freeza was massively stronger than SSG and SSB was needed.

[Lord Beerus]

And as far as off-screen training goes, we are way past the point of raising an issue with that. Piccolo went from weaker than Third Form Freeza to being arguably as a strong as SSJ Vegeta and Goku by doing... something... for three years. And in an alternate timeline, Trunks and Gohan were able to jerk themselves for an unspecified amount of time and become SSJ's. (And kind in mind, in the manga version of events, Future Trunks was already a SSJ by the time Future Gohan bit the dust.)

THANK YOU! Nobody ever draws attention to Piccolo suddenly being able to keep pace with the Saiyans who just got a 50x multiplier thrown on top of them. He gets a tremendous boost for twiddling his thumbs for three years off screen! The best poster on Kanzenshuu has spoken

I have never really had an issue with off-screen training. With how much Dragon Ball handwaves convenient power-ups, not seeing exactly how character get strong in convenient amounts of time is hardly something to get your knickers in a twist about. And I am hardly the best poster on this forum. Especially not with my typos.

[PFM18]

And as far as off-screen training goes, we are way past the point of raising an issue with that. Piccolo went from weaker than Third Form Freeza to being arguably as a strong as SSJ Vegeta and Goku by doing... something... for three years. And in an alternate timeline, Trunks and Gohan were able to jerk themselves for an unspecified amount of time and become SSJ's. (And kind in mind, in the manga version of events, Future Trunks was already a SSJ by the time Future Gohan bit the dust.)

THANK YOU! Nobody ever draws attention to Piccolo suddenly being able to keep pace with the Saiyans who just got a 50x multiplier thrown on top of them. He gets a tremendous boost for twiddling his thumbs for three years off screen! The best poster on Kanzenshuu has spoken

I have never really had an issue with off-screen training. With how much Dragon Ball handwaves convenient power-ups, not seeing exactly how character get strong in convenient amounts of time is hardly something to get your knickers in a twist about. And I am hardly the best poster on this forum. Especially not with my typos.

Well yeah exactly. There's no reason to be mad about off-screen training considering the precedence that has been set by DBZ and off-screen training. If you are going to get your knickers in a twist per say, why do it now? Typos are just typos, not a big deal

[TobyS]

I think the only times we see base be god tier is copy Vegeta and Goku vs Beerus dressed as monaka.

There's *technically* no filler in super but be honest that was blatant fucking filler, in the colloquial sense, as evidenced by it not being in tori/toyo manga and thus presumably not in the og creators outline,

[PFM18]

I think the only times we see base be god tier is copy Vegeta and Goku vs Beerus dressed as monaka.

Those scenes just reinforce what we already know and what was established in BoG and RoF. They aren't outliers or things that should be disregarded.

[TobyS]

I think the only times we see base be god tier is copy Vegeta and Goku vs Beerus dressed as monaka.

Those scenes just reinforce what we already know and what was established in BoG and RoF. They aren't outliers or things that should be disregarded.

Anime BoG doesn't establish god in base form. Neither does the manga.

Outside these two it's never seen again.

We see a ss Gohan dressed as saiyaman not get completely owned by goku in the same level, when the former hasn't had the god ritual done.

We see random other saiyans be roughly equal in the same form like cabba vs Vegeta.

We see trunks ss2 be on par with ss3 as opposed to weaker than gokus ss1.

There's inconsistencies due to the anime butbl only the anime and there's still less contradictions that way round imo

[Mister_Popo]

You are automatically implying his starting base power at the beginning of ROF is exactly the same as his base at the end of BOG.

Well, no I am not. I literally said otherwise the sentence before you posted this. Like I said, even if Goku got 5x stronger in between BoG and RoF with his training with Whis, he would still only be a tenth as strong as SSG.(I would say 5x is a bit much considering it was a fairly short time.)

Wait by "beginning of RoF" are you counting the time when Vegeta was on Whis's planet?

That is what you are stating all the time, if i understand you right.
He has kept the


" RoF Base Goku=SSG/50+his gains from training with Whis" at the beginning of the fight with Freeza, you stated.
This means 'Base Goku=SSG/50' at the start of the arc without any Whis training, as i get you right?
This automatically means every enemy from U6 arc onwards Goku uses SSJ1 against is stronger than BOG SSG Goku.
I think the power scale just has been adapted. How unromantic we may find that, i think many fans agree on that.
We need some headcanon to explain that.
But i think SBG evolving to SSG is less intrusive than what you are proposing. That's why i am proposing the arguments below.

This may be your headcanon (which i even want to respect), but please don't consider it as a given truth.

Like I said, that isn't my headcanon since that isn't even what I said. Such a statement would imply Goku didn't get any stronger by training with Whis.

Reference to point 1. I don't say you claim he hasn't gotten any stronger during Whis training.The twisting point is not he gained massively during that training.
The twisting point he has kept such a massive amount of power, i see that power-up to SSG in SSJ1 against Beerus not as a definitive transformation. It could have been comparable to UI, something that has happened whilst breaking his limits, but it didn't need to be permanent. Most of Gokus gains are linked to transformations, not such massive improvements in baseform. At least since the Freeza arc this is the case.

'RoF Base Goku=SSG/50+his gains from training with Whis' is mere speculation. It's never affirmed somehwere in the story. You are taking it for granted he kept everything he gained at the end of BOG.

It isn't stated exactly that way but that is what the story is telling us. Goku not retaining the power he gained at the end of BoG would make no sense. It is never stated nor implied that he lost that power-up and in indirectly implies that he kept it. Goku was talking about how Vegeta was massively stronger but still might be stronger than him despite the fact that Goku was barely training he was farming for Chi-Chi in the time between this moment and BoG. For Goku to be Vegeta's equal he would have to have retained the boost he got against Beerus.


Goku might have kept something in his baseform and Vegeta maybe had to train to catch that up. But who says Vegeta had to brigde a gap to Base Goku=SSG/50 in baseform without God-Ki?
That's an extreme gap.

If Goku would not have used God-Ki whilst going full power 'base' in his fight with Freeza, which is the case according to your statements, that implies as well he could still stack on his classic mutipliers SSJ1, 2, 3 (he does not use God-Ki, so that gap is still monstrous between base / God-Ki) before even thinking of becoming SSJG of SSJB. That basically means you have an extremely strong base anyway.

Yes, that does mean an extremely strong base. Yes, that does mean that he could stack on the SSJ multipliers. Yes, the gap between Base and using the God Ki of SSG/SSB is monstrous. What do you mean the "gap between base and God Ki without thinking of becoming SSG/SSB." There is no using God Ki without the god transformations.

Then how do you explain True form Freeza being SBG-level during ROF and SSG-level during TOP? Regardless of Goku and Freeza having become stronger, it seems like Goku applied a comparable powerboost.
I think it's rather probable, based on that, Red has become an evolved version of SSG, rather than a SSG-multiplier stacked above an already SSG-empowered-state, which makes Dyspo a fearsome foe for a God of Destruction or even en angel. If i were Beerus, i would pie in my pants in front of SSG Goku, while we all know only MUI Goku 'maybe' has a shot at Beerus anyway. Such a scaling doesn't make sense IMHO.

He doesn't need to go Blue according to that principle

What? No. Why would he not need to go Blue just because his base is strong and he can stack the SSJ multipliers?

why is every new opponent he does use SSJ1 against that extremely strong?

As Lord Beerus explained, that is the nature of the series. The new opponent is always stronger than the previous one.

In his fight against Golden Freeza he probably would have been just fine with SSJ1.

What? No. This just means Golden Freeza was massively stronger than SSG and SSB was needed.

So this implies Golden Freeza is thousands and thousands of times stronger than his True Form as well?

[PFM18]

This means 'Base Goku=SSG/50' at the start of the arc without any Whis training, as i get you right?

Oh I get what you are saying now. I apologize I misunderstood. Yes you are right that is what I am saying.

This automatically means every enemy from U6 arc onwards Goku uses SSJ1 against is stronger than BOG SSG Goku.

Yes exactly. SSJ Cabba>SSG Goku BoG. You may not like that and that is why you want to manipulate the power scaling of the show otherwise, but that is what the show established. For better or for worse, that is what the feats/statements show in this series.

I think the power scale just has been adapted.We need some headcanon to explain that.
But i think SBG evolving to SSG is less intrusive than what you are proposing. That's why i am proposing the arguments below.

You change it and use headcanon because you just don't like what was mentioned above. You just dislike it so you change it to your liking. How things actually are are entirely different from what you want them to be.

How unromantic we may find that, i think many fans agree on that.

Classic 'appeal to populace fallacy'

Reference to point 1. I don't say you claim he hasn't gotten any stronger during Whis training.The twisting point is not he gained massively during that training.
The twisting point he has kept such a massive amount of power, i see that power-up to SSG in SSJ1 against Beerus not as a definitive transformation. It could have been comparable to UI, something that has happened whilst breaking his limits, but it didn't need to be permanent. Most of Gokus gains are linked to transformations, not such massive improvements in baseform. At least since the Freeza arc this is the case.

Alright so now I understand. See the final boost was a result of "breaking one's limits" and that was temporary because otherwise he would have massively surpassed SSG in base by the time of RoF but we see this isn't the case. So that boost where Base Goku where he punched the SoD where Beerus made a comment about breaking his limits, that is very analogous to the UI. However, the boost that made SSG=SSJ was not temporary as is evident by the dialogue between Goku and Vegeta when he shows up on Beerus's planet.

Goku might have kept something in his baseform and Vegeta maybe had to train to catch that up. But who says Vegeta had to brigde a gap to Base Goku=SSG/50 in baseform without God-Ki?
That's an extreme gap.

It doesn't make any sense for Goku to have arbitrarily kept "some" of the power from BoG. That is never implied in any way and is an irrational assumption. Goku is farming for 6 months and Vegeta gains so much power his ki is "unrecognizable" from what it was before and yet they are essentially even? That wouldn't make any sense if Goku didn't retain the boost. Yes, it is an extreme gap but apparently Whis can bridge that gap with his training.

Then how do you explain True form Freeza being SBG-level during ROF and SSG-level during TOP? Regardless of Goku and Freeza having become stronger, it seems like Goku applied a comparable powerboost.

Goku's SSG also has a different relationship when compared to the potara and SSJ3 as I explained before.

But yeah that scene is just strange. Freeza being able to keep up with Dyspo similarly to Goku's SSG. But Freeza is hardly shown to be at that level for the rest of the tournament especially at the end of the tournament. And it isn't as though Dyspo and Freeza were actually even in power, Freeza conceded that he was slower but he could keep up becasue of Dyspo's predictable movements.

which makes Dyspo a fearsome foe for a God of Destruction or even en angel. If i were Beerus, i would pie in my pants in front of SSG Goku, while we all know only MUI Goku 'maybe' has a shot at Beerus anyway. Such a scaling doesn't make sense IMHO.

What? No this is just something that you arbitrarily decided. The scale isn't somehow contradicted because you think it would make SSG Goku/Dyspo>GoDs. Like I said, it is strongly implied that the boost from Base->SSG is heavily diminished from what it was the first time he got the form. (At least 100x less of a boost.)

So this implies Golden Freeza is thousands and thousands of times stronger than his True Form as well?

Yes.

[Saturnine]

This automatically means every enemy from U6 arc onwards Goku uses SSJ1 against is stronger than BOG SSG Goku.

Yes exactly. SSJ Cabba>SSG Goku BoG. You may not like that and that is why you want to manipulate the power scaling of the show otherwise, but that is what the show established. For better or for worse, that is what the feats/statements show in this series.

This is not what the show established. This is what you're inferring the show to have established based on previous evidence and statements, while remaining blind to new circumstances. Is it so inconceivable that the writers would want to back out of something or change a concept imperceptibly over time? Well they did kinda screw up with that "imperceptibly" part, but that's exactly what they did. But I suppose it depends on whether you have a "judger" or a "perceiver" approach.

Like TobyS noticed, the only instances where SBG was intended to be portrayed outside of RoF is Copy Vegeta and possibly Goku vs Beerus in that slice-of-life episode.

And it's not like they're to be disregarded - they clearly exist. But later (and in between) the portrayal was intended to convey a different message, namely that Goku and Vegeta aren't on the level of SSj God in Base, which yes, they were meant to be as of RoF and going forward, but this idea was changed by the writers. It's quite easy to be stubborn in thinking things still work the same as they did at the end of the BoG portion of the anime, but then you'd have to ignore all supplementary statements that came later, such as in the U6 Tournament and the Zen Exhibition Match where the gods only made a remark about "godly pressure" from Goku once he went Blue, not any earlier. And I'm quite frankly astounded at the credit you're giving Cabba and Future Trunks, even though nowhere is it implied they've been through training that would put them on the level of the gods.

Like I said, it is strongly implied that the boost from Base->SSG is heavily diminished from what it was the first time he got the form. (At least 100x less of a boost.)

Either that, or the boost remains just the same as it was, but the base is just much weaker than you think it is

I guess what I am trying to say is... bigger obstacles will always be a thing for Goku and Vegeta to overcome, regards of how much work they put in to reach new realms of strength or how contrived the nature of the obstacle the have to face is.

It may seem a bit depressing that for all of Goku and Vegeta's, a randomly plucked Saiyan from another universe can match them in strength in their base forms, but it is what it is.

Besides, there were no guarantees that other universe would have to abides the power hierarchy that Universe 7 had set

The thing is, Cabba was never an obstacle to Vegeta, as Vegeta had at least two higher tiers of transformation in reserve anyway. He only (or impressively so) matched his base form. But still, because regular SSj was brought back, I hestitate to think that it's the same base form with god power that fought Freeza. I mean, seriously: bringing back the original SSj forms, while first stating they'd be becoming obsolete for Goku and Vegeta should have been a big enough warning sign in itself.

Toriyama's statement of Goku not going to use SSj2 and 3 anymore and focus on SSj1 was made after BoG the movie, and before RoF. By RoF, that concept was fleshed out into SSj Blue - normal SSj, but for someone with godly power. That was all Goku was going to have from then on. But apparently this wasn't marketable enough, and would probably not be that good for a serialized narrative where there are tons of tiers of enemies Goku has to match, but not exceed (also, merch). As a Saiyan Beyond God, he was basically a perma SSj God in terms of power - a tier of power initially portrayed to be 60% of Beerus (though later of course diminished severely compared to him), so he'd be pretty much able to snort anyone through the nose no-diff. And I can hardly imagine that if he was intended to stay that strong, Toriyama and Toei's idea of an uber-powerful villain to match this unparallelled power would be a scrawny, rookie Saiyan who is not even aware SSj is a thing...

Oh yeah, and that in the first place - if people have such an easy time accepting that 6-10-15 was meant to refer to the BoG movie specifically, and is no longer valid, why is it so hard to accept other such changes made clandestinely to the series? I mean, who's still taking seriously Beerus' statement (from the show, no less), that he had to use 10% to put down SSj2 Vegeta? Yeah, didn't think so This whole "godly base" thing is just another thing like this - a great concept, but something that Toriyama didn't have the balls to follow through with (or was talked out of doing so).

[Tectorman]

Not getting into the specifics of the discussion as it's evolved over the pages, but to answer the OP: yes, I totally still am a supporter of the two-base theory. Not to say that SbG is being used now, but it clearly was, at various points that have been mentioned already.

Thing is, I just can't help but find the resistance SbG gets and the willingness to accept a retcon to border on the intellectually disingenuous. It really strikes me as the same as saying "Goku doesn't use the Rock-Paper-Scissors Fist now, so that scene in the 21st Budokai where he was using it against Jackie Chun totally didn't happen, either".

They clearly wanted to phase SbG out. They had him stop using it. That's "mission accomplished". Going further than that and trying to rejigger what happened in BoG and RoF, et al, is a step too far. So instead, he WAS using and DID have it available, and now he is NOT using it though it is still there (for whatever in-universe reason you care to come up with).

[Saturnine]

Not getting into the specifics of the discussion as it's evolved over the pages, but to answer the OP: yes, I totally still am a supporter of the two-base theory. Not to say that SbG is being used now, but it clearly was, at various points that have been mentioned already.

Thing is, I just can't help but find the resistance SbG gets and the willingness to accept a retcon to border on the intellectually disingenuous. It really strikes me as the same as saying "Goku doesn't use the Rock-Paper-Scissors Fist now, so that scene in the 21st Budokai where he was using it against Jackie Chun totally didn't happen, either".

They clearly wanted to phase SbG out. They had him stop using it. That's "mission accomplished". Going further than that and trying to rejigger what happened in BoG and RoF, et al, is a step too far. So instead, he WAS using and DID have it available, and now he is NOT using it though it is still there (for whatever in-universe reason you care to come up with).

Exactly. The two base theory is an acknowledgement that both of these bases have existed at some point, not that Goku can use one and then the other in a single battle. Well, probably not anymore anyway, since we've seen him use SsjG proper. But I agree, refusing to see that a retcon was intended all along makes people look pointlessly stubborn.

[ekrolo2]

I'm not saying that old obstacles do not work in practice. It's more to do with the somewhat arbitrary nature of their introduction. Freeza ruling most of the galaxy and being the strongest adversary the universe has ever known would be fine... if we didn't know later find out that Majin Boo had exist much earlier than he did and was running amok through out the universe for God knows how long. Cell is fine in a biologically technique, but his origins are absurd if you think about them for more than 60 seconds. You've already pointed out how much of an issue #16, #17 and #18 are, so I have nothing to add to that.

And as far as off-screen training goes, we are way past the point of raising an issue with that. Piccolo went from weaker than Third Form Freeza to being arguably as a strong as SSJ Vegeta and Goku by doing... something... for three years. And in an alternate timeline, Trunks and Gohan were able to jerk themselves for an unspecified amount of time and become SSJ's. (And kind in mind, in the manga version of events, Future Trunks was already a SSJ by the time Future Gohan bit the dust.)

I don't think Freeza is really undercut by Majin Boo, Freeza is the classic evil emperor archetype, the big cheese of the universe in a more down to Earth way. Majin Boo is the ancient horror that makes all present day problems look paltry by comparison and has been forgotten by most people. It's a fairly by the numbers approach a lot of space stories do, sometimes stacking ancient horrors beyond traditional comprehension on top of one another like Stellaris does. Cell's origins are absolutely absurd but I think think it undercuts the biological aspect behind his strength. It damages the character narratively over the mechanics of his power.

Oh I'm aware of Piccolo's bullshit, I've actually called it out myself many times. It just feels like its been spread out to multiple different characters without real thought put into it. Future Gohan getting SS isn't too much of a problem, I can see him attaining a Zenkai or two and raging out into SS. Future Trunks having it seemingly for the same reason main Trunks and Goten do IS an absolute problem, however.

[BWri]

The anime didn't pull Goku and Vegeta back, it rubber banded the others forward, which is why we have things like Piccolo being able to defeat a Super Saiyan 2 when he had previously fallen behind even the Super Saiyan 1s and Gohan getting strong enough to reasonably challenge the likes of Dyspo and Golden Frieza after a day of Piccolo's boot camp.

Right. This is how I see it too. The others, from Roshi on up (but possibly excluding Tien) are monsters in comparison to their Buu arc incarnations and if the godly base still existed, these characters would be astronomically stronger.

[PFM18]

This is not what the show established. This is what you're inferring the show to have established based on previous evidence and statements, while remaining blind to new circumstances. Is it so inconceivable that the writers would want to back out of something or change a concept imperceptibly over time? Well they did kinda screw up with that "imperceptibly" part, but that's exactly what they did. But I suppose it depends on whether you have a "judger" or a "perceiver" approach.

They established that SSJ=SSG for Goku. Then Goku trained after that, and Vegeta was his equal. Cabba fought on par with Vegeta, therefore SSJ Cabba>SSG Goku BoG. This is never contradicted at any point in the story. You can't just assume that they retconned something or "backed out" without substantial evidence for this claim. You can't just kind of assume that was previously established suddenly no longer applies.

Like TobyS noticed, the only instances where SBG was intended to be portrayed outside of RoF is Copy Vegeta and possibly Goku vs Beerus in that slice-of-life episode.

And it's not like they're to be disregarded - they clearly exist. But later (and in between) the portrayal was intended to convey a different message, namely that Goku and Vegeta aren't on the level of SSj God in Base, which yes, they were meant to be as of RoF and going forward, but this idea was changed by the writers. It's quite easy to be stubborn in thinking things still work the same as they did at the end of the BoG portion of the anime, but then you'd have to ignore all supplementary statements that came later, such as in the U6 Tournament and the Zen Exhibition Match where the gods only made a remark about "godly pressure" from Goku once he went Blue, not any earlier. And I'm quite frankly astounded at the credit you're giving Cabba and Future Trunks, even though nowhere is it implied they've been through training that would put them on the level of the gods.

SBG never existed at any point in the DBS continuity so it wasn't changed during DBS since it never existed in the first place. SBG existed in the RoF movie only. Supplementary statements do not have to be ignored in order to acknowledge what happened at the end of BoG, since this "godly pressure" was never implied to exist in any form other than the god forms. These statements still fit with everything that had been previously established. So frankly, I have no idea why you think this is a contradiction or evidence that anything was changed.

Either that, or the boost remains just the same as it was, but the base is just much weaker than you think it is

That isn't possible. Their base power is completely and totally irrelevant to what I was referring to. This is not evidence of a weaker base. In BoG it was established SSG ritual>>>potara boost. And so, SSG should output more power than any fusion of characters of equal power as the one with SSG. Goku and Caulifla had the same Base/SSJ2 power. If the multiplier had stayed the same, then SSJ2 Kefla would have been fodder to SSG Goku, as was established in BoG. However, Base Kefla overpowers SSG Goku. We can also see this when Goku powers up to SSG from SSJ2 and fights the duo of U6 Saiyans.

I mean, seriously: bringing back the original SSj forms, while first stating they'd be becoming obsolete for Goku and Vegeta should have been a big enough warning sign in itself.

The SSJ transformations became obsolete because of the existence of "Saiyan Beyond God" in the RoF movie. They use the SSJ transformations since in DBS SBG doesn't exist.

Toriyama's statement of Goku not going to use SSj2 and 3 anymore and focus on SSj1 was made after BoG the movie, and before RoF. By RoF, that concept was fleshed out into SSj Blue - normal SSj, but for someone with godly power. That was all Goku was going to have from then on. But apparently this wasn't marketable enough, and would probably not be that good for a serialized narrative where there are tons of tiers of enemies Goku has to match, but not exceed (also, merch).

Well exactly. RoF "fleshed this out" in such a way that SSB and SBG were there only forms. A godly base and a godly SSJ. that was it. But apparently this wasn't marketable enough because it clearly wasn't a thing once they made their new series and they scrapped that idea entirely.

In other words, DBS did not retcon itself and arbitrarily change things entirely in terms of power scaling, but rather they retconned the movies.

[Marlowe89]

but then you'd have to ignore all supplementary statements that came later, such as in the U6 Tournament and the Zen Exhibition Match where the gods only made a remark about "godly pressure" from Goku once he went Blue, not any earlier.

Just going to provide some additional background here for anyone who cares about looking at the series objectively:

They didn't say "godly pressure", exactly; the phrase used was kami no chikara, meaning "strength of the gods" or "level of the gods" depending on the preferred translation. Rarely is this exact term used in the series, but it was first used by Beerus to describe Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan God during the first arc.

Therefore, unless people arbitrarily decide that the minimum threshold for that tier of power changed for no reason (nothing in the show indicates this), Super Saiyan Goku during the US arc isn't nearly as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku in BoG. Neither is Super Saiyan Cabba, Super Saiyan Caulifla or any other normal yellow-haired Saiyan. Open and shut.

[PFM18]

but then you'd have to ignore all supplementary statements that came later, such as in the U6 Tournament and the Zen Exhibition Match where the gods only made a remark about "godly pressure" from Goku once he went Blue, not any earlier.

Just going to provide some additional background here for anyone who cares about looking at the series objectively:

They didn't say "godly pressure", exactly; the phrase used was kami no chikara, meaning "strength of the gods" or "level of the gods" depending on the preferred translation. Rarely is this exact term used in the series, but it was first used by Beerus to describe Goku's strength as a Super Saiyan God during the first arc.

Therefore, unless people arbitrarily decide that the minimum threshold for that tier of power changed for no reason (nothing in the show indicates this), Super Saiyan Goku during the US arc isn't nearly as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku in BoG. Neither is Super Saiyan Cabba, Super Saiyan Caulifla or any other normal yellow-haired Saiyan. Open and shut.

Ah, the age old classic of taking one statement, interpreting it in the most literal way possible, and invalidate what was established in the entire rest of the series without seriously considering any alternative explanations. It appears you have no interest in being objective about this.

[Desassina]

I have never called Goku's state against Whis "Saiyan Beyond God", because I thought that it was somewhat innacurate, with the Super Saiyan God projection indicating that he was getting there and not beyond that state. I thought that Goku's base went up to his previous full power level as a SSJ and that the latter became God SSJ in Battle of Gods. I'll explain: if the characters get to their full power with SSJ, or well past it with the ascended forms, then the full power of the numbered ones would be SSJ in a new state, which could be named God, and its base their previous full power. The grades and numbered forms would be tier specific, hence why SSJ Vegeta can be stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Trunks at his level, when Goku Black was SSJ as well. Notice how Vegeta still hadn't accomplished SSJG before he used it to boost the Blue one into full power blows: not beyond God.