"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:11 am

Dbzk1999 wrote: How is this anymore of an explanation than what happened in the anime?
Read what you're replying to. The guy said the manga having that speech by Vegeta justifies the form if you're feeling generous, or makes it not sting as much if you aren't.

Previous themes established also soften the blow, but as I said before, those don't serve to make it palatable.

Marlow, at some point in the thread, said just because this shit stinks less than the anime doesn't make it not shit. I agree with that sentiment. I was hoping for more, so this is the first case where the manga has truly let me down on something.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SSJgogeto » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:16 am

Bergamo wrote:So then doesn't that mean they both suck?
That depends of the execution, I guess.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:19 am

TKA wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote: How is this anymore of an explanation than what happened in the anime?
Read what you're replying to. The guy said the manga having that speech by Vegeta justifies the form if you're feeling generous, or makes it not sting as much if you aren't.

Previous themes established also soften the blow, but as I said before, those don't serve to make it palatable.

Marlow, at some point in the thread, said just because this shit stinks less than the anime doesn't make it not shit. I agree with that sentiment. I was hoping for more, so this is the first case where the manga has truly let me down on something.
I can read, thank you. And I’m asking how this
But unlike the anime, at least the manga attempts to explain things
Is valid when it essentially boiled down to the same point that the anime had. It’s not a case of it “stinking less” it’s a case of “they smell the exact same”

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:21 am

Bergamo wrote:
Xeogran wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:What would it have been better if Toppo and Dyspo received a random powerup just so they can have a cool fight?
Well yes, the point of a Tournament arc is to have cool fights. Nothing bad with people wanting that.

To many people, Toppo's entrance in the manga was better than in anime, because he actually managed to beat Goku. And now we get such an underwhelming elimination of him and Dyspo. It's like he's been hyped for nothing.
The manga has a sensible powerscale, so it won't do the same things the anime does. Buffing Goku so that his God form is a lot stronger than his Blue form was a few episodes, Kale and Caulifla's stupidly powerful fusion, and Vegeta's successive rage boosts were all added to make things "cool", but they ruin the believability of the story.
Goku's God form was never portrayed as being "buffed to be a lot stronger than his Blue form." That's just untrue. There's nothing stupidly powerful about the U6 Saiyan's fusion. If anything should have a problem with Kale and Caulifla individually, it should have been that they could match Goku/Vegeta's absurdly strong current Base forms and by extension their other forms. Vegeta had one rage boost, the other "rage boost" was just gaining a new form.

In short, none of this is even true let alone something that ruins the believability of the story.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:27 am

prince212 wrote:
Miracles wrote:The problem is Toppo and Dyspo losing the way they did. Heavy hitters like that are suppose to put up a fight yet get taken out in that fashion.
Right , 2 pages more of vegeta vs toppo and another 2 of dyspo vs 17 (at least ) ,could make it look better .
Well , in u11 pre-tournament they were losers against an ugly monster and in their last stance on the tournament they were pathetic too , That’s why jiren said “go to the benches and enjoy from there”
Yeah, I get you. However Toppo as a god candidate should of at least brought more in terms of power. Being only equal to Vegeta's MSSB was kind of a letdown.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:30 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I don't deny that, but I'd rather have less cool fights and a better power scale rather than more cool fights and a worse power scale.
Seriously?! Weren't you one of the guys defending the Roshi scene last month?lmao
Aren't you the one who has 5 pages of "toyo absolutely ruined roshi's character"? Lmao whos going to take YOU seriously after that bro
Yes, but unlike the person I'm talking too, I'm not being hypocritical about things. How can he make that same comment and defend something that is the epitome of what he's against to the 10th power?!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:31 am

PFM18 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Xeogran wrote:
Well yes, the point of a Tournament arc is to have cool fights. Nothing bad with people wanting that.

To many people, Toppo's entrance in the manga was better than in anime, because he actually managed to beat Goku. And now we get such an underwhelming elimination of him and Dyspo. It's like he's been hyped for nothing.
The manga has a sensible powerscale, so it won't do the same things the anime does. Buffing Goku so that his God form is a lot stronger than his Blue form was a few episodes, Kale and Caulifla's stupidly powerful fusion, and Vegeta's successive rage boosts were all added to make things "cool", but they ruin the believability of the story.
Goku's God form was never portrayed as being "buffed to be a lot stronger than his Blue form." That's just untrue. There's nothing stupidly powerful about the U6 Saiyan's fusion. If anything should have a problem with Kale and Caulifla individually, it should have been that they could match Goku/Vegeta's absurdly strong current Base forms and by extension their other forms. Vegeta had one rage boost, the other "rage boost" was just gaining a new form.

In short, none of this is even true let alone something that ruins the believability of the story.
1. Kale tanked Goku's blue kamehameha and then he was able to beat her rather easily in SSG after he improved.

2. SS2 Vegeta + SS3 Goku < SSG Goku

Therefore SS2 Caulifla + Kale(who is around SS3 Goku if not a little stronger) =< SSG Goku

I'm not an expert on the God tier base forms in the anime, but this seems like a given. If Goku's base is stronger, then all of his forms should be stronger as well, right?

3. Vegeta got a new form because of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he got stronger against Toppo out of a desire to protect his loved ones, then he did a desperation move out of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he made one last stand against Jiren out of his desire to protect his loved ones. Vegeta was a broken record at the end.
reecehoward wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
reecehoward wrote: Seriously?! Weren't you one of the guys defending the Roshi scene last month?lmao
Aren't you the one who has 5 pages of "toyo absolutely ruined roshi's character"? Lmao whos going to take YOU seriously after that bro
Yes, but unlike the person I'm talking too, I'm not being hypocritical about things. How can he make that same comment and defend something that is the epitome of what he's against to the 10th power?!
Roshi's moment is stupid and poorly written, don't get me wrong, but they don't for a second try to convince you that Roshi ia God tier. He literally says that he's not strong in the chapter. The anime does the same thing with Krillin. I just think that while there are things that both do wrong, there are more examples of this in the anime.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:09 am

Bergamo wrote:1. Kale tanked Goku's blue kamehameha and then he was able to beat her rather easily in SSG after he improved.
Goku was suppressed. Sure, the scene was blatant fan service because it was an homage to Movie 8, but it should have been obvious that he was holding back.

1. Powering up from SSJ2-> SSB Goku said he would use "a little" more power.
2. He received no battle damage from Kale's rampage
3. Jiren one shot her and Goku was unimpressed,(implying he could have done the same) and immediately challenged him.
2. SS2 Vegeta + SS3 Goku < SSG Goku

Therefore SS2 Caulifla + Kale(who is around SS3 Goku if not a little stronger) =< SSG Goku

I'm not an expert on the God tier base forms in the anime, but this seems like a given. If Goku's base is stronger, then all of his forms should be stronger as well, right?
Uhh yeah his Base is super strong so his other forms are stronger as well yes. I'm really not sure what you are saying in this segment of your post though.
3. Vegeta got a new form because of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he got stronger against Toppo out of a desire to protect his loved ones, then he did a desperation move out of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he made one last stand against Jiren out of his desire to protect his loved ones. Vegeta was a broken record at the end.
Well, yeah but that is completely different from what you were initially saying. You said he got successive rage boosts and now you reference a bunch of events that aren't rage boosts.

unlocking new form /=/ rage boost
using Final Explosion/=/ rage boost
getting beaten by Jiren in Base /=/ rage boost
ZombieVito wrote:Good to see that the manga continues to do it's monthly job of making the anime look better.
Yes sir. :D :D

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:28 am

PFM18 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:1. Kale tanked Goku's blue kamehameha and then he was able to beat her rather easily in SSG after he improved.
Goku was suppressed. Sure, the scene was blatant fan service because it was an homage to Movie 8, but it should have been obvious that he was holding back.

1. Powering up from SSJ2-> SSB Goku said he would use "a little" more power.
2. He received no battle damage from Kale's rampage
3. Jiren one shot her and Goku was unimpressed,(implying he could have done the same) and immediately challenged him.
2. SS2 Vegeta + SS3 Goku < SSG Goku

Therefore SS2 Caulifla + Kale(who is around SS3 Goku if not a little stronger) =< SSG Goku

I'm not an expert on the God tier base forms in the anime, but this seems like a given. If Goku's base is stronger, then all of his forms should be stronger as well, right?
Uhh yeah his Base is super strong so his other forms are stronger as well yes. I'm really not sure what you are saying in this segment of your post though.
3. Vegeta got a new form because of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he got stronger against Toppo out of a desire to protect his loved ones, then he did a desperation move out of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he made one last stand against Jiren out of his desire to protect his loved ones. Vegeta was a broken record at the end.
Well, yeah but that is completely different from what you were initially saying. You said he got successive rage boosts and now you reference a bunch of events that aren't rage boosts.

unlocking new form /=/ rage boost
using Final Explosion/=/ rage boost
getting beaten by Jiren in Base /=/ rage boost
ZombieVito wrote:Good to see that the manga continues to do it's monthly job of making the anime look better.
Yes sir. :D :D
1. If Goku was going to use a little more power only, then wouldn't he have gone SSG or SS3?
2. I guess we can agree to disagree on Kefla.
3. Rage boost or family boost, whatever you want to call it, Vegeta kept getting more power out of nowhere.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:42 am

Miracles wrote:The problem is Toppo and Dyspo losing the way they did. Heavy hitters like that are suppose to put up a fight yet get taken out in that fashion.
I think it was less of how they went out, and more of how they were treated as an afterthought throughout this. If they actually got to put on a good show on panel, and we actually got to watch how they got worn down over time, and then they went off like this, I think it would have been fine. The moment was a good show of how Jiren thinks of everyone else as useless. But I think that would have had even more impact if we saw how strong the guys he considered useless were.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:02 am

Bergamo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:1. Kale tanked Goku's blue kamehameha and then he was able to beat her rather easily in SSG after he improved.
Goku was suppressed. Sure, the scene was blatant fan service because it was an homage to Movie 8, but it should have been obvious that he was holding back.

1. Powering up from SSJ2-> SSB Goku said he would use "a little" more power.
2. He received no battle damage from Kale's rampage
3. Jiren one shot her and Goku was unimpressed,(implying he could have done the same) and immediately challenged him.
2. SS2 Vegeta + SS3 Goku < SSG Goku

Therefore SS2 Caulifla + Kale(who is around SS3 Goku if not a little stronger) =< SSG Goku

I'm not an expert on the God tier base forms in the anime, but this seems like a given. If Goku's base is stronger, then all of his forms should be stronger as well, right?
Uhh yeah his Base is super strong so his other forms are stronger as well yes. I'm really not sure what you are saying in this segment of your post though.
3. Vegeta got a new form because of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he got stronger against Toppo out of a desire to protect his loved ones, then he did a desperation move out of his desire to protect his loved ones, then he made one last stand against Jiren out of his desire to protect his loved ones. Vegeta was a broken record at the end.
Well, yeah but that is completely different from what you were initially saying. You said he got successive rage boosts and now you reference a bunch of events that aren't rage boosts.

unlocking new form /=/ rage boost
using Final Explosion/=/ rage boost
getting beaten by Jiren in Base /=/ rage boost
ZombieVito wrote:Good to see that the manga continues to do it's monthly job of making the anime look better.
Yes sir. :D :D
1. If Goku was going to use a little more power only, then wouldn't he have gone SSG or SS3?
2. I guess we can agree to disagree on Kefla.
3. Rage boost or family boost, whatever you want to call it, Vegeta kept getting more power out of nowhere.
1. That would have been more sensical but again, the scene is just there for an homage to Broly and Goku being SSB just makes it seem more dramatic. They dropped hints that he was suppressed and it was confirmed when he dominated a stronger version of Kale as a SSG.
2. The nature of how SSG was handled after episode 14 automatically indicates that SSG doesn't yield the same boost it did initially, and so it was easier to catch up. What was impressive about Kale/Caulifla was that they could match Goku and Vegeta in their current Base/SSJ forms given how outrageously powerful they are by this point. It would be inconsistent if their fusion WASN'T as strong as it was given how incredibly strong they were in their Base/non-god SSJ forms.
3. He got a new form and then he got a rage boost. That is literally it. It doesn't count as a power boost that he used the FInal Explosion, him remembering his family and encouraging himsellf to fight on against Jiren is not a power boost. Now, you are moving the goal posts anyway.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:12 am

TKA wrote: The guy said the manga having that speech by Vegeta justifies the form if you're feeling generous, or makes it not sting as much if you aren't.
It also helps that, unlike the anime, it's not technically some """new""" Toei-exclusive transformation that looks like a Grade 2 ripoff with pupils; as Beerus mentioned, it's just Blue with a stronger aura. It's not mechanically all that dissimilar from Vegeta's huge rage boost during BoG.

But as you've said, its plot significance is practically zilch. The whole thing feels like a fanservice moment that doesn't actually carry any narrative weight other than to differentiate Vegeta's progression from Goku's, which I've said I appreciate on some level, but it's just not good enough on its own to justify an arbitrary power-up like that. Toyotaro was clearly going for a manga equivalent to Blue Evolution but didn't really need it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:17 am

Miracles wrote:
prince212 wrote:
Miracles wrote:The problem is Toppo and Dyspo losing the way they did. Heavy hitters like that are suppose to put up a fight yet get taken out in that fashion.
Right , 2 pages more of vegeta vs toppo and another 2 of dyspo vs 17 (at least ) ,could make it look better .
Well , in u11 pre-tournament they were losers against an ugly monster and in their last stance on the tournament they were pathetic too , That’s why jiren said “go to the benches and enjoy from there”
Yeah, I get you. However Toppo as a god candidate should of at least brought more in terms of power. Being only equal to Vegeta's MSSB was kind of a letdown.
Agree of missing more of toppo showdown , ok with being “equal” with mastered blue , cuz Beerus stated that mssb vegeta could be a god of destruction candidate in other universes I.i.r.c
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:18 am

This chapter just blew my mind, finally something good in this mediocre arc. Jiren is menacing as fuck and, sure, I would've liked to see more from Toppo but I'm okay with it because it served to show a new and scary side of Jiren. IMO, Toppo's time to shine should've been in previous chapters.
It also made me feel that Jiren was treating the U-7 fighters as if they were cats he was kicking out of his house, like they were literally on the edge all the time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:08 am

TKA wrote:
In Chapter 27 he said he was done following Goku and would get to the top his way. Earlier, he found his own way of getting around Super Saiyan Blue's drawbacks. Him getting his own transformation makes thematic sense for the character... but it doesn't make plot sense, which is the most basic level. If something is meant to be thematic, but isn't justifiable in the plot, it's implemented poorly. I'm not a fan of this at all.
Saiyans evolve while fighting, that’s the justification, and having his own transformation suits good too , seems that Whis agree , ultra instinct does not fit vegeta signature style and may be better for him to evolve in a different way , and I like that if means that ultra instinct is not the end of the world and the only way to evolve in order to be a better fighter . Jiren is an example too ...
It’s awesome that finally in this chapter 40 ( not in 27 ) vegeta is done following goku steps , in ch 27 he said “if goku can do it I can do it “
Implemented poorly in the way vegeta talked too much while fighting , yes ... also I didn’t like him repeating goku,s line of finally you remember my name , especially in this scenario, that was a moment to say I don’t care and attack , not keep on talking to be surprised by jiren attack.
It was not the best chapter mainly because lots of important situations were heavily compressed.
2 more chapters and Hopefully we will get new fresh stuff
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:55 am

Miracles wrote: Yeah, I get you. However Toppo as a god candidate should of at least brought more in terms of power. Being only equal to Vegeta's MSSB was kind of a letdown.
Well, Goku ssj god was also said he can become a god of destruction in the battle of gods and that form is even weaker than Toppo.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:47 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:
picc wrote:Wasn't a gigantic fan of Vegeta getting that instant boost out of nowhere. But unlike the anime, at least the manga attempts to explain things. His speech took a lot of the sting out of it at worst, and justified it at best.

If the anime had even attempted to explain the bull that happened over and over again, instead of just treating the audience like we were all 3 year olds, it would have been a lot less insulting.
How is this anymore of an explanation than what happened in the anime?
A character getting a last minute power-up due to his emotions is pretty much the standard for anime. Fine, whatever. It's when said character gets said power up, we're told explicitely that he had reach his limits, and then gets ANOTHER power up just so he can get a win is bullshit. It's Super doubling down on the idea that nothing really matters--he'll just break his limitations so we can get a fancy cool fight scene and all the fanboys will be happy. It's lazy storytelling because it's a cheap way to back out of the corner the writers wrote themselves in.

On the whole Roshi thing: I re-read that chapter and I think I get what it's trying to do, as well as the themes of the arc in general. Basically, Roshi's whole speech to Goku is a clapback against the franchises tendency to just rely on power-ups and transformations as a gauge for strength.

Goku: "I DON'T CARE IF THIS WRECKS MY BODY, I NEED PURE POWER"
Roshi: *sigh* "So you're back on your basic fuckboy bullshit, huh?"

And that's all over the place in these last couple of chapters. It's implied that Gohan isn't as strong as Kefla but he's able to hold his own because, in his own words, "I chose to keep evolving as a human." Basically, he's relying on technique than just spamming his God mode Saiyan powers that this franchise has abused mercilessly. So the fact that Goku gains UI (or at least a weaker version of it) not because he's the coldest, wickedest, motherfucker that ever walked the motherfucking earth, but because he actually chooses to listen to his teacher is not only a far more interesting and positive change for Goku--And I love that Goku here does something that he never once does in the anime, which is admits that he was wrong--it's a positive change for the franchise as a whole.

Because the thing I like about the manga, among the many reasons I like the manga more than the anime, is that it focuses on smaller character moments, something that Dragonball used to be about. Not everything needs to go big. The small little smile Kefla and Gohan share before kamikazing each other off the ring is a far better send-off than the Kefla and Goku fight, cool as it was. And my favorite moment of the Super manga by far is Goku and Vegeta standing down hundreds of Zamasus fully prepared to go out with a bang: "Go wild until you die?" A moment that does such a great job of showing just how far these two have come as rivals and friends just in a single panel.

t's these moments that remind me precisely why I like these characters in the first place.

But nah, I guess Toyotaro is a hack cause he referenced a scene from a movie. smh.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LimitbreakerKrillin » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:05 am

I personally prefer if they just gave Vegeta Ultra instinct -omen- instead of SSBE on both anime and manga.
In the anime I kind understand why, because Vegeta needed something bring him to an equal footing with Goku's Kaioken Blue. Wish they indroduced that form when he fought Goku Black after training in the Hyperbolic time chamber.

In the manga however they are already equal, So SSBE was brought in to be the his equivalent to UI, and its just ehhh...

I have a sneaky suspicion that Toriyama with his footnotes wrote with a huge bold font " Vegeta must not have UI in any shape or form, nope. Give him something, something super saiyan blue instead"

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:01 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Except something like this would never happen in real life. A human would never be weakened to such an absurd extent. It'd be like a human getting so exhausted they become weaker than a subatomic particle.

Being that damaged from so little only makes them look pathetic as I already said.

And that isn't at all what I said, I literally said I wasn't referring to battle power. Your points here are completely irrelevant because I never once said characters shouldn't weaken or that they don't have physical limitations. Also, the Gohan thing was dumb as hell too, but the Vegeta thing makes sense since even if he was thousands of times faster than Tao Pai Pai he'd still be far too slow to avoid the Genki Dama since Goku would need to throw it fast enough to get Buu who is immensely superior to Vegeta.
Your sense of battle damage makes no sense and reeks of PL-based powerscaling. To you, even if a GoD character is so worn down he can't move properly, he must still be able to leap across planets because "muhgodtierpowerscale."

And again, you prove yourself completely ignorant and dismissive of character interactions if you think they were damaged from "so little."
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:16 am

kemuri07 wrote:
Dbzk1999 wrote:
picc wrote:Wasn't a gigantic fan of Vegeta getting that instant boost out of nowhere. But unlike the anime, at least the manga attempts to explain things. His speech took a lot of the sting out of it at worst, and justified it at best.

If the anime had even attempted to explain the bull that happened over and over again, instead of just treating the audience like we were all 3 year olds, it would have been a lot less insulting.
How is this anymore of an explanation than what happened in the anime?
A character getting a last minute power-up due to his emotions is pretty much the standard for anime. Fine, whatever. It's when said character gets said power up, we're told explicitely that he had reach his limits, and then gets ANOTHER power up just so he can get a win is bullshit. It's Super doubling down on the idea that nothing really matters--he'll just break his limitations so we can get a fancy cool fight scene and all the fanboys will be happy. It's lazy storytelling because it's a cheap way to back out of the corner the writers wrote themselves in
Again, this isn’t addressing what I’m actually asking. I’m not talking about further power ups he got. I’m specifically talking this instant against Jiren (just like the person I quoted was doing in the first part of his post). What makes the manga “explanation” any better (or worse) than what happened in its anime counterpart?

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