"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[New_Guy]

I'm not even saying this as a biased Gohan fan, but I think we can mostly all agree that was a pretty underwhelming way for Gohan to drop out. Like seriously? A double ringout? Him and Lavender already did a double knockout in the exhibition match. Honestly with the way the episode was going I forgot Gohan was even supposed to show up for the assist. It probably would've been better if he didn't show up at all. Freeza disappointed me with how inferior his Golden Form seems to be "all of a sudden" but I would've rather seen his and Dyspo's fight finish out as a one on one. It just felt like it made sense... Oh well. Here's to looking forward to the re-hash in the manga.

[dbzfan7]

I don't remember Vegeta's new power-up being build up either, at least not as Ultra Instinct. As I added in my previous comments, if Vegeta won't get a new form in the manga, one can totally expect that someone else will. I bet Gohan.

I mean this arc Vegeta randomly gets a new power up that really makes no difference, just cause. Had no real plot/character ongoing story and is just given a bone just like that. It's probably the most random form give away I've ever seen. Staying away from logistics even Trunks Rage form had more of a reason to exist considering his role in the story, but this...

I do jest it's similar to the Cell games situation, but probably somewhat more intrusive.

The fact that Gohan has received much hype in this saga does not mean he will receive a major new transformation.

Kuririn was one of the characters who received the most hype and was eliminated early in the tournament.

Anyway, Gohan just went back to training one day for the tournament. Why should he receive an unprecedented transformation without any effort, while vegeta is seeking this for years?

Krillin didn't get nearly as big hype as Gohan.

Because there is more of a story pay off while Vegeta barely has a tie to the plot or even as a character. He has about as much relation to the plot this arc as Tenshinhan, and his previous stint in the Black arc heavily overshadows how much ties he has to the story. At least for Gohan you'd have a full set up, build up, and pay off. For Vegeta it's just....hey here's a new power up. What sort of importance or build up do I have this arc....none. What sort of ongoing character arc do I have.......like...maybe knowing a saiyan for like a day. And what sort of accomplishment/goal does the form allow Vegeta to achieve.....nothing. It's just a form for the sake of having it...and that's it.

[kinisking]

Gohan fans should count themselves lucky he even got "Ultimate" back at this stage.

I refuse to consider myself lucky because he got back a form that he never should have lost in the first place.

Although I do consider us lucky for this arc. He did a good job.

You should because Gohan did nothing outside of slacking for 7 years to get the Ultimate form.
Meanwhile other characters that actually trained got jack shit in both the Buu and Top arc.

Tien's the only character that got jack shit after training. Piccolo made some pretty impressive gains and is stronger than ss2 level now. Krillin and 18 trained even less than Gohan. 17, Freeza and roshi powered up more than anyone was expecting. Goku and Vegeta got the gains obviously.

Not to say that the ultimate form is necessarily fair, but that statement isn't necessarily accurate. We don't know when Gohan stopped training. It could've been years after the cell saga. He also trained with the sword and a month before the tournament. Not much, but something. And the ultimate form is his own power anyways, it was just inside him the whole time. He also had to wait 24 hours sitting on his ass while everyone got slaughtered which is just mental torture for a character like Gohan. Again, the ultimate form was pretty unfair but not the worst thing ever .It isn't ssg level bullshit that gives you a much bigger power boost by holding hands.

[Pannaliciour]

What if Gohan's performance are indeed very underwhelming from the original draft (Toriyama) and drops out in the manga very early because Toriyama wants that? Maybe Toei knew Super was going to end and thought lets do it this way. Not dropping him out immediately but also not doing something very special.

[Kataphrut]

I don't like getting upset about a U7 elimination, because I see it like taking medicine. It's unpleasant, but you can't put it off forever, everyone needs to do it at some point. That being said, Gohan showing up late in this episode, basically to die, was too similar to Tien for my liking. It's especially egregious, A) because Toei built up his importance in the arc and B) He was outlasted by 17 and Vegeta, despite them having less development and no real arc.

I can understand Vegeta outlasting Gohan even if I don't like it, but 17? That's taking the fanservice way too far. He's been cool this arc, but why does the comeback for a former secondary villain warrant more flare and circumstance than the comeback for the one-time protagonist of the series?

[HeroR]

After seeing the episode sub, Freeza isn't faking since everyone confirmed that Freeza was rapidly draining his stamina and Freeza himself sounded strained. In this case, Gohan took too long to beat Dypso.

I don't like getting upset about a U7 elimination, because I see it like taking medicine. It's unpleasant, but you can't put it off forever, everyone needs to do it at some point. That being said, Gohan showing up late in this episode, basically to die, was too similar to Tien for my liking. It's especially egregious, A) because Toei built up his importance in the arc and B) He was outlasted by 17 and Vegeta, despite them having less development and no real arc.

I can understand Vegeta outlasting Gohan even if I don't like it, but 17? That's taking the fanservice way too far. He's been cool this arc, but why does the comeback for a former secondary villain warrant more flare and circumstance than the comeback for the one-time protagonist of the series?

So Gohan staying in wouldn't be 'fan service' because?

[Totamo]

Well... that went nowhere.

It never said it would happened in this arc or any time soon. That was just Gohan's long-term goal.

You cannot say that when literally every saiyan, and i do mean every saiyan, got a new form in this tournament but him.

I told you Toei hypes things up more than they should when they know its not going to have a high pay off and you argued with me when now look, this episode will be put up there with 119 and 106 when the writing isn't on par with those 2 simply because of the expectations Gohan was given.

[Chuquita]

17 is a favorite of this arc's director or producer; I forget which one, but they said so in an interview from early last year. That's why he gets to stay so long.

[Whatever]

Tien's the only character that got jack shit after training. Piccolo made some pretty impressive gains and is stronger than ss2 level now. Krillin and 18 trained even less than Gohan. 17, Freeza and roshi powered up more than anyone was expecting. Goku and Vegeta got the gains obviously.

While Piccolo made some impressive gains post rof,despite training he was weaker than Gohan from the Buu saga all the way to rof(which Gohan did not train at all at this point) and Gohan in episode 88 became stronger than him by getting back the same form he did not work for to begin with.
17 actually trained more than Gohan ever did,he trained for 10-12 years while Gohan trained for 5 years?

Not to say that the ultimate form is necessarily fair, but that statement isn't necessarily accurate. We don't know when Gohan stopped training. It could've been years after the cell saga. He also trained with the sword and a month before the tournament. Not much, but something. And the ultimate form is his own power anyways, it was just inside him the whole time. He also had to wait 24 hours sitting on his ass while everyone got slaughtered which is just mental torture for a character like Gohan. Again, the ultimate form was pretty unfair but not the worst thing ever .It isn't ssg level bullshit that gives you a much bigger power boost by holding hands.

He was weaker than his 9-10 year old self so i think its pretty safe to assume he let himself go very shortly after.
Also the Ultimate form is not his power,the Elder Kai brings the user's power many times beyond its limit,so the ritual is potential unlock+many times beyond boost.
The ssjg thing is actually still more fair than Ultimate,because unike Ultimate it has a time limit and its not normal to keep the form after the ritual but Goku did because he is Goku.

[Lord Beerus]

17 is a favorite of this arc's director or producer; I forget which one, but they said so in an interview from early last year. That's why he gets to stay so long.

Or maybe Toriyama wanted him to last this long as this could be his final major role in a large scale Dragon Ball story arc.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I mean this arc Vegeta randomly gets a new power up that really makes no difference, just cause. Had no real plot/character ongoing story and is just given a bone just like that. It's probably the most random form give away I've ever seen. Staying away from logistics even Trunks Rage form had more of a reason to exist considering his role in the story, but this...

I do jest it's similar to the Cell games situation, but probably somewhat more intrusive.

The fact that Gohan has received much hype in this saga does not mean he will receive a major new transformation.

Kuririn was one of the characters who received the most hype and was eliminated early in the tournament.

Anyway, Gohan just went back to training one day for the tournament. Why should he receive an unprecedented transformation without any effort, while vegeta is seeking this for years?

Krillin didn't get nearly as big hype as Gohan.

Because there is more of a story pay off while Vegeta barely has a tie to the plot or even as a character. He has about as much relation to the plot this arc as Tenshinhan, and his previous stint in the Black arc heavily overshadows how much ties he has to the story. At least for Gohan you'd have a full set up, build up, and pay off. For Vegeta it's just....hey here's a new power up. What sort of importance or build up do I have this arc....none. What sort of ongoing character arc do I have.......like...maybe knowing a saiyan for like a day. And what sort of accomplishment/goal does the form allow Vegeta to achieve.....nothing. It's just a form for the sake of having it...and that's it.

So, hype does not mean anything.

Muten Roshi did not receive so much hype but had a great participation in the tournament

And Vegeta is one of the characters that has the most motivation in this tournament. How does he have no relation to the plot of this saga? We do not even know if all this hype in Gohan was TOEI thing

He has received all this does not mean that he will have a great highlight, and he returned to training now does not make sense he simply get a new transformation, while Vegeta has been training hard for a long time. And yes, its new transformation also had a motivation to be obtained

[New_Guy]

I'm just poking fun but next thing you know when it gets closer to the time for the new film to release, I'm sure we'll get character art and bios. And if the main cast in fact is in the movie ( and not just a rag tag Yamoshi entourage) I wouldn't even be surprised if Gohan's bio reads due to occupational and paternal duties Gohan has once again slacked off in his training lol. It's like it wouldn't be a real Gohan re-emergence without him ceasing his training regimen for the umpteenth time.

[dbzfan7]

The fact that Gohan has received much hype in this saga does not mean he will receive a major new transformation.

Kuririn was one of the characters who received the most hype and was eliminated early in the tournament.

Anyway, Gohan just went back to training one day for the tournament. Why should he receive an unprecedented transformation without any effort, while vegeta is seeking this for years?

Krillin didn't get nearly as big hype as Gohan.

Because there is more of a story pay off while Vegeta barely has a tie to the plot or even as a character. He has about as much relation to the plot this arc as Tenshinhan, and his previous stint in the Black arc heavily overshadows how much ties he has to the story. At least for Gohan you'd have a full set up, build up, and pay off. For Vegeta it's just....hey here's a new power up. What sort of importance or build up do I have this arc....none. What sort of ongoing character arc do I have.......like...maybe knowing a saiyan for like a day. And what sort of accomplishment/goal does the form allow Vegeta to achieve.....nothing. It's just a form for the sake of having it...and that's it.

So, hype does not mean anything.

Muten Roshi did not receive so much hype but had a great participation in the tournament

And Vegeta is one of the characters that has the most motivation in this tournament. How does he have no relation to the plot of this saga? We do not even know if all this hype in Gohan was TOEI thing

He has received all this does not mean that he will have a great highlight, and he returned to training now does not make sense he simply get a new transformation, while Vegeta has been training hard for a long time. And yes, its new transformation also had a motivation to be obtained

No he doesn't. Vegeta has next to no build up or anything for this arc. His only story arc he had was not wanting to enter because Bra wasn't born....that's it. That was the only real ongoing story he had. After that nothing. He gets a new form just cause...and that's it. A transformation is a satisfying pay off. But this transformation is a satisfying pay off to NOTHING. Hell even the motivation they give Vegeta for what he got was in the literal same episode he got it. Not something built up as his own goal. It was actually Gohan's goal, which Vegeta magically ended up stealing just cause. It's literally the equivalent of TFS Vegeta how he got Super Saiyan, they basically took that and tried to make it serious.

[Mercenary]

Doubt it. The anime built up to something about that and did nothing with it. While the Manga had nothing even remotely mention it. Just give it to Vegeta despite barely having much to do with the plot/build up. If anything the The Black arc is where he was fit to get a new form if there was gonna be one. Must be Karma for the Cell games.

I don't remember Vegeta's new power-up being build up either, at least not as Ultra Instinct. As I added in my previous comments, if Vegeta won't get a new form in the manga, one can totally expect that someone else will. I bet Gohan.

I mean this arc Vegeta randomly gets a new power up that really makes no difference, just cause. Had no real plot/character ongoing story and is just given a bone just like that. It's probably the most random form give away I've ever seen. Staying away from logistics even Trunks Rage form had more of a reason to exist considering his role in the story, but this...

I do jest it's similar to the Cell games situation, but probably somewhat more intrusive.

So in your opinion Gohan achieving the new form would make more sense?

This dude was literally sitting on his backside this entire time and few trainings with much weaker Piccolo won't compensate his lack of training for such a long time.

Vegeta is probably the most hardworking guy in this franchise, so if anyone deserves the new power-up, he deserves it the most.

And it's not like he didn't work for it. He blew up the entire ROSAT without breaking a sweat so that was kinda hinting his new form.

Goku tanked Genki Dama and randomly got UI. Did he deserve it? I dunno, but surely not more than Vegeta.

[Kataphrut]

I don't like getting upset about a U7 elimination, because I see it like taking medicine. It's unpleasant, but you can't put it off forever, everyone needs to do it at some point. That being said, Gohan showing up late in this episode, basically to die, was too similar to Tien for my liking. It's especially egregious, A) because Toei built up his importance in the arc and B) He was outlasted by 17 and Vegeta, despite them having less development and no real arc.

I can understand Vegeta outlasting Gohan even if I don't like it, but 17? That's taking the fanservice way too far. He's been cool this arc, but why does the comeback for a former secondary villain warrant more flare and circumstance than the comeback for the one-time protagonist of the series?

So Gohan staying in wouldn't be 'fan service' because?

Because he had a character arc and 17 didn't. Now watch me copy-paste a post I just made elsewhere because I have thoughts about this and don't want to waste time rewriting them:

Out of the three "comeback" arcs (Gohan, 17 and Krillin) in the Universe Survival Arc, it feels like the shallowest has been allowed the most pomp and circumstance.

You have Gohan, one-time protagonist and saviour of the Earth who became infamous for his fall from grace in the Buu arc. In this arc, he finally regains his lost power and then some, being named leader of Team Universe 7 and shedding the flaws that kept him from being a fighter. You have Krillin, one of the longest-running characters, best friend to Goku, strongest human and plucky underdog. After a two-parter exploring the effects of constantly being outclassed and dying on his psyche, he returns to being a martial artist with renewed confidence and some fancy new tricks. And then you have 17. He used to be a pretty cool secondary villain before he got et by Cell and disappeared from the plot. He's a park ranger now, but he's also apparently as strong as a Super Saiyan Blue. He's got no motivation, no arc, didn't even want to be in the tournament. All three of them are fighting to protect their families, but his is the only one we never see or hear from.

Basically, there were two characters with compelling arcs ripe for important developments, and one who was good for a few cool moments and not much else. Why then did Krillin get outed like a chump so soon, Gohan fare better but still ultimately accomplish less than his potential, while 17 keeps getting cool moments and lasts into the top 6? It's almost like buildup of a character is inversely proportional to their role in the tournament. Obviously power levels are a factor here as well, but why do we still allow them so much leeway? With the exception of Master Roshi outlasting Krillin and Tien, the elimination order for Universe 7 reads like a 13-year old DB Wiki contributors "My DBS Power Levels" list.

[dbzfan7]

I don't remember Vegeta's new power-up being build up either, at least not as Ultra Instinct. As I added in my previous comments, if Vegeta won't get a new form in the manga, one can totally expect that someone else will. I bet Gohan.

I mean this arc Vegeta randomly gets a new power up that really makes no difference, just cause. Had no real plot/character ongoing story and is just given a bone just like that. It's probably the most random form give away I've ever seen. Staying away from logistics even Trunks Rage form had more of a reason to exist considering his role in the story, but this...

I do jest it's similar to the Cell games situation, but probably somewhat more intrusive.

So in your opinion Gohan achieving the new form would make more sense?

This dude was literally sitting on his backside this entire time and few trainings with much weaker Piccolo won't compensate his lack of training for such a long time.

Vegeta is probably the most hardworking guy in this franchise, so if anyone deserves the new power-up, he deserves it the most.

And it's not like he didn't work for it. He blew up the entire ROSAT without breaking a sweat so that was kinda hinting his new form.

Goku tanked Genki Dama and randomly got UI. Did he deserve it? I dunno, but surely not more than Vegeta.

I'm saying as a story it would be. I never said it would be a well written one. Vegeta deserves a power up for barely having any real build up or relevance this arc, for a form that barely really changes anything at all. Not to mention giving basically a similar spiel to what Gohan had said. Goku has an ongoing story since the beginning of this arc, so as a story it makes sense for him to recieve one. It's not all about power levels. Even as much as I shit on Super Saiyan Rage, it made sense for Trunks to get it in a story context for a satisfying pay off. Because he had been pushed around so much and helpless, and this was the power he received so he could finally fight back. That is satisfying.

Here it's just a power up given because fuck it, and it barely makes any bit of a difference. Does it advance Vegeta's character at all? No. Does it pay off a built up story arc for him? No. Does it majorly effect the story? So far not really no. If this was Black Arc Vegeta there'd be a definite reason for this form to appear. But this is the Universe Survival Arc where even Krillin had more ties than Vegeta did. Super Saiyan Bluer is just a power up hand out, and nothing else. It's not even a satisfying plot device.

[Lord Frieza]

I was wondering, we've all wondered how things with Frieza would play out and none's broken the no killing rule yet.....

What if Toppo, confident that Jiren will win and disgusted by Frieza's nature, Haki's him?

[Sandubadear]

I hope that Toppo's power up is similar to Trunks's healing power in the manga; meaning that Vermoud had to dance around him to make him a disciple.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Krillin didn't get nearly as big hype as Gohan.

Because there is more of a story pay off while Vegeta barely has a tie to the plot or even as a character. He has about as much relation to the plot this arc as Tenshinhan, and his previous stint in the Black arc heavily overshadows how much ties he has to the story. At least for Gohan you'd have a full set up, build up, and pay off. For Vegeta it's just....hey here's a new power up. What sort of importance or build up do I have this arc....none. What sort of ongoing character arc do I have.......like...maybe knowing a saiyan for like a day. And what sort of accomplishment/goal does the form allow Vegeta to achieve.....nothing. It's just a form for the sake of having it...and that's it.

So, hype does not mean anything.

Muten Roshi did not receive so much hype but had a great participation in the tournament

And Vegeta is one of the characters that has the most motivation in this tournament. How does he have no relation to the plot of this saga? We do not even know if all this hype in Gohan was TOEI thing

He has received all this does not mean that he will have a great highlight, and he returned to training now does not make sense he simply get a new transformation, while Vegeta has been training hard for a long time. And yes, its new transformation also had a motivation to be obtained

No he doesn't. Vegeta has next to no build up or anything for this arc. His only story arc he had was not wanting to enter because Bra wasn't born....that's it. That was the only real ongoing story he had. After that nothing. He gets a new form just cause...and that's it. A transformation is a satisfying pay off. But this transformation is a satisfying pay off to NOTHING. Hell even the motivation they give Vegeta for what he got was in the literal same episode he got it. Not something built up as his own goal. It was actually Gohan's goal, which Vegeta magically ended up stealing just cause. It's literally the equivalent of TFS Vegeta how he got Super Saiyan, they basically took that and tried to make it serious.

Vegeta has his family to protect (Bulma, Bra and Trunks) and made a promise to Kyabe to revive the universe 6 if he wins the tournament (ie he is certainly carrying a big burden after the universe 6 is erased, which increases even more the construction of the character).
I agree that he received much less hype than Gohan, but like I said, that does not mean anything, since Roshi practically received no hype and still fought well.

Vegeta on SSB had used everything he could and could not defeat Jiren. If he did not get any further transformation, then he would only be a nuisance against Jiren in this fight and would be useless. The transformation also served to match him to Goku's SSB KK.

Gohan is out of the fights for years, returned to training 1 day before the tournament began and overcame his peak, and yet received a lot of episodes focused on him, in addition to having the second largest screen time of the tournament. I do not know why they're complaining about him.
It makes no sense for him to receive a new transformation with no effort, Vegeta is training much more than him.
Vegeta even said that he wants to overcome his limits and defeat Jiren in his own way, so he is also looking for it

[dbzfan7]

So, hype does not mean anything.

Muten Roshi did not receive so much hype but had a great participation in the tournament

And Vegeta is one of the characters that has the most motivation in this tournament. How does he have no relation to the plot of this saga? We do not even know if all this hype in Gohan was TOEI thing

He has received all this does not mean that he will have a great highlight, and he returned to training now does not make sense he simply get a new transformation, while Vegeta has been training hard for a long time. And yes, its new transformation also had a motivation to be obtained

No he doesn't. Vegeta has next to no build up or anything for this arc. His only story arc he had was not wanting to enter because Bra wasn't born....that's it. That was the only real ongoing story he had. After that nothing. He gets a new form just cause...and that's it. A transformation is a satisfying pay off. But this transformation is a satisfying pay off to NOTHING. Hell even the motivation they give Vegeta for what he got was in the literal same episode he got it. Not something built up as his own goal. It was actually Gohan's goal, which Vegeta magically ended up stealing just cause. It's literally the equivalent of TFS Vegeta how he got Super Saiyan, they basically took that and tried to make it serious.

Vegeta has his family to protect (Bulma, Bra and Trunks) and made a promise to Kyabe to revive the universe 6 if he wins the tournament (ie he is certainly carrying a big burden after the universe 6 is erased, which increases even more the construction of the character).
I agree that he received much less hype than Gohan, but like I said, that does not mean anything, since Roshi practically received no hype and still fought well.

Vegeta on SSB had used everything he could and could not defeat Jiren. If he did not get any further transformation, then he would only be a nuisance against Jiren in this fight and would be useless. The transformation also served to match him to Goku's SSB KK.

Gohan is out of the fights for years, returned to training 1 day before the tournament began and overcame his peak, and yet received a lot of episodes focused on him, in addition to having the second largest screen time of the tournament. I do not know why they're complaining about him.
It makes no sense for him to receive a new transformation with no effort, Vegeta is training much more than him.
Vegeta even said that he wants to overcome his limits and defeat Jiren in his own way, so he is also looking for it

-The family never really mentioned at all or on his mind as a big driving point.
-The boy he basically met for like a day and even then in the middle of the tournament.

-Something clear in the literal episode itself...and that's it. Not at any point was it a big focal point to Vegeta before then.
-It is still useless as it has no effect on Jiren at all. Neither of them do. Getting Vegeta up to Goku SSBKK level doesn't do squat. It just gives him a power up and that's it. A power up for the most unsatisfying of reasons.

It makes sense because of his potential, and because of his story arc. And yes it didn't make sense how he got that strong so fast, but neither did Rage Trunks either. Rage Trunks was given that form because it was a satisfying pay off to the shit he went through. He was beaten up, haunted, and useless. Now he finally has a power that can help when he watched his mom die in front of him before helplessly. Rage Trunks was shit down power up, but the reason for him having said power up is sound for why it was put in. It just could have been written better is all.

Would you be ok if in the Black arc Vegeta talks about ascending beyond Super Saiyan Blue, and that he will surpass Goku....but then Trunks mentions the same thing in one episode, and then transforms into rage and what Vegeta said never happens. Cause that's basically what just happened here. Vegeta says exactly what Gohan says and gets his form in the same episode. Even if anyone wants to call this a set up, it's a really shit one. There was no time to really long for it. No time to get hyped for the idea. It was just "Oh I'd really like a new form, oh shit I got it sweet."

If Gohan got a new form would it have been well written, no. It still would have the same problems Rage Trunks had. Would it have made for at least a fitting conclusion to his character arc, yes. Would it have felt earned, probably not as did Rage Trunks. But it's better to have an arc than just be handed one, when it's just overshadowed by Ultra Instinct anyways.