Hawk9211 wrote:
The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.
DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.
One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.
I think that's the transformation that they have tried to show Goku go through in this arc. Instead of fighting for purely selfish reasons, like becoming stronger, Goku learns kind of to give up those selfish motivations and gain strength from the trust that others have in him.
I'm not necessarily endorsing this character arc, its just something I noticed.
I thought the speech was more about the Z-Fighters than Goku. Goku's part was that although he can be a selfish meathead, he isn't under the delusion that he's a self-made man and he only got so far because he had to trust people and learn from them.
Yeah, that part was definitely about Goku knowing he wasn't who built themselves up alone.
However, there were a few bits before that did demonstrate what I was talking about, specifically when he mentioned how 17, Vegeta and everyone else was counting on him.
Hawk9211 wrote:Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:
Takami: But you have to be careful not to let Dragon Ball get too sentimental. You’ve got to protect the world that Toriyama-sensei created. Vegeta adds some good flavoring into the mix.
FIRE NAKAMURA, Fire Sakurada, IMO they are the reasons why we got the following:
Nakama boosts
Roshi wank
17 wank
Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry, they made him a douche in order to make Goku the good guy.
Hawk9211 wrote:Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:
Takami: But you have to be careful not to let Dragon Ball get too sentimental. You’ve got to protect the world that Toriyama-sensei created. Vegeta adds some good flavoring into the mix.
FIRE NAKAMURA, Fire Sakurada, IMO they are the reasons why we got the following:
Nakama boosts
Roshi wank
17 wank
Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry, they made him a douche in order to make Goku the good guy.
Surely you jest.
Nakamura has easily been one of the best and strongest contributors to Super, why would you want him removed after his shown himself to be so capable?
HeroR wrote:
Michsi wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.
DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.
One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.
But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.
Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)
You mean if you missed the Future Trunks Saga?
JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
There are many things in Super that are badly written and should be called out. At the same time, 'bad writing' has been dumbed down to 'things I don't like' and in course lost all meaning. To me for example, bad writing is Botamo's power being rewritten so Gohan could knock him out in 103 with the Kamehameha and 106 and 119 are literally with bad writing.
TBH, I think bad execution of idea's is far more egregious is worse than purely bad writing, because at the very least bad writing with an interesting execution can at least be engaging, something that is badly executed will never fail to disappoint.
As for something like 106, I think it was far better in theory than in execution. The idea's around our characters working together to figure out and overcome their opponent that has been set upon them is a very good one, however, the execution really does leave a lot to be desired, especially in the second half, when the conflict was actually resolved.
119 is just badly written and badly executed, even though it has a decent base idea.
At least to me, bad writing and bad execution tend to go hand-and-hand with very few exceptions.
One of the few exceptions I can think of is Gohan going Super Saiyan 2. It's executed extremely well and does have a strong emotional impact. Overall, brilliant work by Toriyama. However, when you actually sit down and breakdown the scene, it really doesn't make any sense. Gohan is suddenly 'I don't want to kill you' to Cell when he was read to murdered Cell when he thought he killed Piccolo and he had no problem trying to murder Freeza on Namek. And the fact that Gohan final breaking point wasn't seeing his friends and family get tortured, but seeing a robot he barely knew die is really eye-rolling. Not helped that 16 supposedly left a big impact on Gohan, yet he never considered using the second wish to Shenron to revive him. 16 is literally never mentioned again after he died.
106 was a good and interesting premise done in by messy writer. Like more universe should have been effected by the sniper, throwing rocks was considered a good idea, Gohan was more boneheaded than usual, and Tien's 'cool moment' was flat. 119 was just an overall mess and really needed to be two episodes, or an episode or a half. It coming on the heel of 118 which was a great written episode with a lot of emotional impact didn't help.
For me at least, bad direction seems to be more of a cause for bad execution than just bad writing. For example, 106's first half I thought was very effective of selling the threat of the snipers, however the second half was completely tensionless, poorly directed, and poorly framed, and ruined any momentum the first half of the episode had. 119 was just bad from every perspective, the production was falling apart, and the character writing was in stark contrast to what we got in 118.
Last edited by JazzMazz on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hawk9211 wrote:
The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.
DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.
One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.
But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.
Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)
You mean if you missed the Future Trunks Saga?
If you're talking about the Chichi/Goten scene, that is another extreme scenario. It felt like the TOP kind of erased, or at least mitigated, all of that, what with Goku being the one to remind the Omni King of the tournament despite being told to his face he is doing something that will put everyone in danger.
But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.
Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)
You mean if you missed the Future Trunks Saga?
If you're talking about the Chichi/Goten scene, that is another extreme scenario. It felt like the TOP kind of erased, or at least mitigated, all of that, what with Goku being the one to remind the Omni King of the tournament despite being told to his face he is doing something that will put everyone in danger.
Yes and no since Goku showed he did care, he was just easy going about everything. Like he was brought to tears when Roshi nearly died.
perucho1990 wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:
Takami: But you have to be careful not to let Dragon Ball get too sentimental. You’ve got to protect the world that Toriyama-sensei created. Vegeta adds some good flavoring into the mix.
FIRE NAKAMURA, Fire Sakurada, IMO they are the reasons why we got the following:
Nakama boosts
Roshi wank
17 wank
Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry, they made him a douche in order to make Goku the good guy.
This is such a troll post that it hurts.
'Nakama' boosts have been done since the original Dragon Ball except we call them 'rage boosts'. Like Goku going Super Saiyan can be called 'Nakama' boost for several reasons along with 'That's My Bulma'.
Roshi has been on the bench since 107, which is now 23 episodes ago. So how are they wanking him, especially when far more characters got spotlight with this level of complaint. Seriously, Roshi has been gone for months yet people are still this salty about him doing well is baffling.
How is 17 getting spotlight after decades of not being in the series a bad thing by default? That and 17 literally disappeared from 104 to 109 and then disappeared again from 111 to 115.
"Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry", is so hyperbolic that I won't even bother.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote:
You mean if you missed the Future Trunks Saga?
If you're talking about the Chichi/Goten scene, that is another extreme scenario. It felt like the TOP kind of erased, or at least mitigated, all of that, what with Goku being the one to remind the Omni King of the tournament despite being told to his face he is doing something that will put everyone in danger.
Yes and no since Goku showed he did care, he was just easy going about everything. Like he was brought to tears when Roshi nearly died.
It's that easygoing nature that is bothering people. It's overly easygoing. It's the same kind that makes even Luffy feel a bit off-putting sometimes. There is that comparison page of how Toriyama Goku reacts to meeting Freeza to how DBS Goky would react to meeting Freeza. Bit of an exaggeration, but it's on the right track.
That's what I meant, extreme moments warrant extreme reactions, and 130 was such a case. The friendship boost works because it's not Goku's source of power usually, whereas other MC's practically feed off of it.
If you're talking about the Chichi/Goten scene, that is another extreme scenario. It felt like the TOP kind of erased, or at least mitigated, all of that, what with Goku being the one to remind the Omni King of the tournament despite being told to his face he is doing something that will put everyone in danger.
Yes and no since Goku showed he did care, he was just easy going about everything. Like he was brought to tears when Roshi nearly died.
It's that easygoing nature that is bothering people. It's overly easygoing. It's the same kind that makes even Luffy feel a bit off-putting sometimes. There is that comparison page of how Toriyama Goku reacts to meeting Freeza to how DBS Goky would react to meeting Freeza. Bit of an exaggeration, but it's on the right track.
That's what I meant, extreme moments warrant extreme reactions, and 130 was such a case. The friendship boost works because it's not Goku's source of power usually, whereas other MC's practically feed off of it.
That isn't a comparison since it's a fan made manga panel based on what they thing 'Super' Goku would act like. A companion would used actual stuff from the freaking manga. And most of Z's Goku reaction were in extreme conditions too, but no one noticed since Goku was only allowed to do anything when things were extreme.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote:
Yes and no since Goku showed he did care, he was just easy going about everything. Like he was brought to tears when Roshi nearly died.
It's that easygoing nature that is bothering people. It's overly easygoing. It's the same kind that makes even Luffy feel a bit off-putting sometimes. There is that comparison page of how Toriyama Goku reacts to meeting Freeza to how DBS Goky would react to meeting Freeza. Bit of an exaggeration, but it's on the right track.
That's what I meant, extreme moments warrant extreme reactions, and 130 was such a case. The friendship boost works because it's not Goku's source of power usually, whereas other MC's practically feed off of it.
That isn't a comparison since it's a fan made manga panel based on what they thing 'Super' Goku would act like. A companion would used actual stuff from the freaking manga. And most of Z's Goku reaction were in extreme conditions too, but no one noticed since Goku was only allowed to do anything when things were extreme.
I know it's fan made, but it feels accurate. DBS Goku is a bit too flippant. Z Goku was too, not saying he wasn't, but not to this level.
HeroR wrote:
You mean if you missed the Future Trunks Saga?
If you're talking about the Chichi/Goten scene, that is another extreme scenario. It felt like the TOP kind of erased, or at least mitigated, all of that, what with Goku being the one to remind the Omni King of the tournament despite being told to his face he is doing something that will put everyone in danger.
Yes and no since Goku showed he did care, he was just easy going about everything. Like he was brought to tears when Roshi nearly died.
perucho1990 wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:
FIRE NAKAMURA, Fire Sakurada, IMO they are the reasons why we got the following:
Nakama boosts
Roshi wank
17 wank
Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry, they made him a douche in order to make Goku the good guy.
This is such a troll post that it hurts.
'Nakama' boosts have been done since the original Dragon Ball except we call them 'rage boosts'. Like Goku going Super Saiyan can be called 'Nakama' boost for several reasons along with 'That's My Bulma'.
Roshi has been on the bench since 107, which is now 23 episodes ago. So how are they wanking him, especially when far more characters got spotlight with this level of complaint. Seriously, Roshi has been gone for months yet people are still this salty about him doing well is baffling.
How is 17 getting spotlight after decades of not being in the series a bad thing by default? That and 17 literally disappeared from 104 to 109 and then disappeared again from 111 to 115.
"Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry", is so hyperbolic that I won't even bother.
[/spoiler]
Perucho is right up with precita in exaggeration.However,I think his assumption is based on nakamura being precure's director.
The reason I don't take rage boosts as nakama power is because they are more like andrenaline effect and a gateway to something else.Otherwise,they are just temporary power ups that accomplish nothing.I do agree with my bulma,trunks,sailor vegeta and current power up of goku as nakama power.
[spoiler]
Michsi wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
Michsi wrote:
I'd say it wasn't though. Overly sentimental, I mean. I'd say it's not even close to how DB got when Piccolo died for Gohan (the first time) or Vegeta asking Goku to avenge the saiyans before dying. You can't have them be completely void of emotions or attachments to one another.
The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.
DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.
One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.
But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.
Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)
[/spoiler]
Yeah,it's a gross exaggeration.However,as you can see in the bolded it's taking too far.First,they went too far in one direction now they are doing another 180 degree turn.
While,extreme events require extreme reactions it is subtle.You don't see piccolo making speeches about gohan that one event,before or after.The character actions build up for that moment.Not this constant reminder,goku was not cause of destruction of universe or goku cares about his friends.
Last edited by Hawk9211 on Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Michsi wrote:
It's that easygoing nature that is bothering people. It's overly easygoing. It's the same kind that makes even Luffy feel a bit off-putting sometimes. There is that comparison page of how Toriyama Goku reacts to meeting Freeza to how DBS Goky would react to meeting Freeza. Bit of an exaggeration, but it's on the right track.
That's what I meant, extreme moments warrant extreme reactions, and 130 was such a case. The friendship boost works because it's not Goku's source of power usually, whereas other MC's practically feed off of it.
That isn't a comparison since it's a fan made manga panel based on what they thing 'Super' Goku would act like. A companion would used actual stuff from the freaking manga. And most of Z's Goku reaction were in extreme conditions too, but no one noticed since Goku was only allowed to do anything when things were extreme.
I know it's fan made, but it feels accurate. DBS Goku is a bit too flippant. Z Goku was too, not saying he wasn't, but not to this level.
Feeling isn't the same as being accurate. And Z Goku was flippant to Super's Goku level when you considered he gave Cell a Senzu, didn't tell Gohan he was going to throw him into a death match with Cell and just spent his time taking it easy, made a mess in the Buu and refused to clean it up. The only story arc Goku wasn't flippant in was the Saiyan Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
If you're talking about the Chichi/Goten scene, that is another extreme scenario. It felt like the TOP kind of erased, or at least mitigated, all of that, what with Goku being the one to remind the Omni King of the tournament despite being told to his face he is doing something that will put everyone in danger.
Yes and no since Goku showed he did care, he was just easy going about everything. Like he was brought to tears when Roshi nearly died.
perucho1990 wrote:
FIRE NAKAMURA, Fire Sakurada, IMO they are the reasons why we got the following:
Nakama boosts
Roshi wank
17 wank
Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry, they made him a douche in order to make Goku the good guy.
This is such a troll post that it hurts.
'Nakama' boosts have been done since the original Dragon Ball except we call them 'rage boosts'. Like Goku going Super Saiyan can be called 'Nakama' boost for several reasons along with 'That's My Bulma'.
Roshi has been on the bench since 107, which is now 23 episodes ago. So how are they wanking him, especially when far more characters got spotlight with this level of complaint. Seriously, Roshi has been gone for months yet people are still this salty about him doing well is baffling.
How is 17 getting spotlight after decades of not being in the series a bad thing by default? That and 17 literally disappeared from 104 to 109 and then disappeared again from 111 to 115.
"Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry", is so hyperbolic that I won't even bother.
[/spoiler]
Perucho is right up with precita in exaggeration.However,I think his assumption is based on nakamura being precure's director.
The reason I don't take rage boosts as nakama power is because they are more like andrenaline effect and a gateway to something else.Otherwise,they are just temporary power ups that accomplish nothing.I do agree with my bulma,trunks,sailor vegeta and current power up of goku as nakama power.
[spoiler]
Michsi wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.
DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.
One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.
But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.
Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)
[/spoiler]
Yeah,it's a gross exaggeration.However,as you can see in the bolded it's taking too far.First,they went too far in one direction now they are doing another 180 degree turn.
By that definition Goku going Super Saiyan and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 are 'Nakama' boosts since they weren't temporary. Heck, Gohan's first 'Nakama' boost is the reason why Raditz was beating so it fits the 'accomplish' something.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote:
That isn't a comparison since it's a fan made manga panel based on what they thing 'Super' Goku would act like. A companion would used actual stuff from the freaking manga. And most of Z's Goku reaction were in extreme conditions too, but no one noticed since Goku was only allowed to do anything when things were extreme.
I know it's fan made, but it feels accurate. DBS Goku is a bit too flippant. Z Goku was too, not saying he wasn't, but not to this level.
Feeling isn't the same as being accurate. And Z Goku was flippant to Super's Goku level when you considered he gave Cell a Senzu, didn't tell Gohan he was going to throw him into a death match with Cell and just spent his time taking it easy, made a mess in the Buu and refused to clean it up.
Semantics. 'Feels accurate' is evidently me acknowledging that this is a personal opinion, which is common and usual when talking about fiction and not scientific data.
HeroR wrote: The only story arc Goku wasn't flippant in was the Saiyan Saga.
The only time I can think of where Goku was inappropriately flippant given the situation was during the Cell Games, but the story made a whole thing about that and addressed it directly? Buu Saga has him being reckless more than anything.
Michsi wrote:
I know it's fan made, but it feels accurate. DBS Goku is a bit too flippant. Z Goku was too, not saying he wasn't, but not to this level.
Feeling isn't the same as being accurate. And Z Goku was flippant to Super's Goku level when you considered he gave Cell a Senzu, didn't tell Gohan he was going to throw him into a death match with Cell and just spent his time taking it easy, made a mess in the Buu and refused to clean it up.
Semantics. 'Feels accurate' is evidently me acknowledging that this is a personal opinion, which is common and usual when talking about fiction and not scientific data.
HeroR wrote: The only story arc Goku wasn't flippant in was the Saiyan Saga.
The only time I can think of where Goku was inappropriately flippant given the situation was during the Cell Games, but the story made a whole thing about that and addressed it directly? Buu Saga has him being reckless more than anything.
Freeza Saga, wanted to fight Freeza for fun even after he was warned several times that's a bad idea. Him being flippant with the Ginyu Force was also part of the reason he got body jacked. Buu Saga, the entire sequence in Babidi's ship where all the Saiyans treated it like a video game.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Loputousu wrote:Yeah you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Got it.
No, and you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Got that too.
Dbzfan94 wrote:Exactly. Losing stamina = getting weaker is fine. Losing stamina = getting stronger is bad.
That's not what he's saying. Can you read more carefully please?
Yes, it was. To repeat myself once more: Losing power is not the issue and yes that the said character (Jiren) is a freaking titan compared to those (Freeza and #17) who try to stand up to him no matter how "injured" he was.
Hawk9211 wrote:Outside of nakama power,my biggest problem with the drama was:
Takami: But you have to be careful not to let Dragon Ball get too sentimental. You’ve got to protect the world that Toriyama-sensei created. Vegeta adds some good flavoring into the mix.
Sorry, but who the hell is Takami?
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Hawk9211 wrote:
The arc as a whole,yes.I won't go into detail,but I'll say the only one well done was roshi.Otherwise;vegeta and this whole fight starting from when goku achieved UI by thinking about nakama is quite overly sentimental for db especially goku.
DB characters only express such extreme emotions in extreme moments.They don't go spouting speeches about friendship,family etc.Subtle hints,yeah othrrwise no.
One thing that separates goku from other shonen protagonists is that he is a bloodknight.His main motivation is getting stronger.Remember what happened when goku was about to kill freeza?Anger about his friend's death or sadness at killing a strong opponent.
But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.
Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)
You mean if you missed the Future Trunks Saga?
And the Resurrection F Saga... And the Battle of Gods Saga...
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
jeffbr92 wrote:Yes, it was. To repeat myself once more: Losing power is not the issue and yes that the said character (Jiren) is a freaking titan compared to those (Freeza and #17) who try to stand up to him no matter how "injured" he was.
jeffbr92 wrote:Yes, it was. To repeat myself once more: Losing power is not the issue and yes that the said character (Jiren) is a freaking titan compared to those (Freeza and #17) who try to stand up to him no matter how "injured" he was.
Are they just supposed to throw themselves out of bounds without even trying to fight in the last 30 seconds of the tournament? What do you expect them to do? No offense, but this way of thinking is just stupid.
HeroR wrote:
Yes and no since Goku showed he did care, he was just easy going about everything. Like he was brought to tears when Roshi nearly died.
This is such a troll post that it hurts.
'Nakama' boosts have been done since the original Dragon Ball except we call them 'rage boosts'. Like Goku going Super Saiyan can be called 'Nakama' boost for several reasons along with 'That's My Bulma'.
Roshi has been on the bench since 107, which is now 23 episodes ago. So how are they wanking him, especially when far more characters got spotlight with this level of complaint. Seriously, Roshi has been gone for months yet people are still this salty about him doing well is baffling.
How is 17 getting spotlight after decades of not being in the series a bad thing by default? That and 17 literally disappeared from 104 to 109 and then disappeared again from 111 to 115.
"Jiren being the biggest pile of trash in the history of the industry", is so hyperbolic that I won't even bother.
[/spoiler]
Perucho is right up with precita in exaggeration.However,I think his assumption is based on nakamura being precure's director.
The reason I don't take rage boosts as nakama power is because they are more like andrenaline effect and a gateway to something else.Otherwise,they are just temporary power ups that accomplish nothing.I do agree with my bulma,trunks,sailor vegeta and current power up of goku as nakama power.
[spoiler]
Michsi wrote:
But wouldn't you say that the imminent erasure of his universe and the death of everyone he's ever met and cared about is one of those extreme moments? And I'd say the only reason he even started spouting anything about bonds is because he is facing an opponent that is specifically against these things and openly mocks them. I think Jiren's character and his views on friendship were deliberately designed for the purpose of inserting some emotion driven response from Goku. One of the most common criticism for DBS is that Goku seems way too detached, that he doesn't take anything serious. It feels like the writers wanted to have at least one moment were they make it clear that Goku does indeed care about his friends and family, even if it takes such extreme circumstances to make that apparent.
Goku isn't a bloodknight. Zaraki Kenpachi is a boodknight. Goku is childish and reckless and sometimes downright selfish, but I think people take these traits just a bit too far.
With Freeza, he loudly proclaims that he has no right to beg for his life because of all the innocent lives he has destroyed. By the end, he had lost all interest of a rematch with Freeza and chose to give him energy out of mercy. Why he showed sadness? Because he had to kill him in the end. Goku isn't a heartless battle beast. (Neither is Kenpachi in the end, but they are worlds appart when it comes to their personality)
[/spoiler]
Yeah,it's a gross exaggeration.However,as you can see in the bolded it's taking too far.First,they went too far in one direction now they are doing another 180 degree turn.
By that definition Goku going Super Saiyan and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 are 'Nakama' boosts since they weren't temporary. Heck, Gohan's first 'Nakama' boost is the reason why Raditz was beating so it fits the 'accomplish' something.
Hell, GOku IS getting a rage boost here. He's getting angry that Jiren tried ot murder his friends. Just like he got angry when Frieza murdered his friend. Just like Gohan got angry when Cell killed that random android I forgot the name of. Just like when Black smugly told Goku all the gory details of how he murdered Goku's family.
The only difference is that they actually talk about friendship here.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
HeroR wrote:
Feeling isn't the same as being accurate. And Z Goku was flippant to Super's Goku level when you considered he gave Cell a Senzu, didn't tell Gohan he was going to throw him into a death match with Cell and just spent his time taking it easy, made a mess in the Buu and refused to clean it up.
Semantics. 'Feels accurate' is evidently me acknowledging that this is a personal opinion, which is common and usual when talking about fiction and not scientific data.
HeroR wrote: The only story arc Goku wasn't flippant in was the Saiyan Saga.
The only time I can think of where Goku was inappropriately flippant given the situation was during the Cell Games, but the story made a whole thing about that and addressed it directly? Buu Saga has him being reckless more than anything.
Freeza Saga, wanted to fight Freeza for fun even after he was warned several times that's a bad idea. Him being flippant with the Ginyu Force was also part of the reason he got body jacked. Buu Saga, the entire sequence in Babidi's ship where all the Saiyans treated it like a video game.
No, he doesn't outright defy King Kai, if anything quite the opposite. It's Piccolo that says he wants them to fight Freeza together. King Kai ends the conversation with the warning, especially how it could put their lives on earth in danger and Goku doesn't oppose him. Goku continues his training even if it's not to fight Freeza. When he does end up going against Freeza, he does it because their backs are against the wall and for revenge. It's nothing like what he did with Beerus.
And when was he flippant with Ginyu? He just gets taken off guard because of Ginyu's strange technique that he couldn't have prepared for, but before that he plainly states that he has to end the fight quickly because otherwise they'd lose the DB. He taunts them, yes, but not once did I get the impression he was being flippant. Quite the opposite. He was menacing if anything.
