"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[shadowmaria]

What if Jiren is eliminated next episode, and that's why Toppo transforms / gains God ki / becomes a God of Destruction / uses his actual power - because Vermoud gets desperate in Jiren's defeat?

So you're saying Toppo will be the final opponent and not Jiren?

Regardless, that would be interesting?

Keeps the series more unexpected than otherwise, and adds further relevance to the pre-TOP fight Goku had with Toppo

[GamerSkull]

What if Jiren is eliminated next episode, and that's why Toppo transforms / gains God ki / becomes a God of Destruction / uses his actual power - because Vermoud gets desperate in Jiren's defeat?

So you're saying Toppo will be the final opponent and not Jiren?

Regardless, that would be interesting?

Keeps the series more unexpected than otherwise, and adds further relevance to the pre-TOP fight Goku had with Toppo

Yeah, that's a good point.

If that does happen, then I wonder how it'll play out.

[dbzfan7]

You mean like fusion that thing that is combination of both but has never actually won, but fans love it so much, they made a game out of it?


Yeah, powerups and transformations definitely have to be gamechamgers and top character arcs even the ones that didn't.

Where are you getting this have to be crap? If they want to be good they do. Otherwise they just come off as yet another power up. There's a big reason why the most memorable power ups, were the culmination of characters, and not the ones that are just handed out. Some are remembered for spectacle, but the ones remembered as the most important were the ones that had to do with the characters.

If power ups were as meaningless as just something to throw around, then you might as well have Dragon Ball Heroes be the actual series as they fart out those power ups/transformations all the time. It's funny how that gets labelled as fanservice crap which is a bad thing, but then in series fan service crap is fine. The entire sequence seems like it belongs in a Dragon Ball Heroes trailer.

You keep saying this when super saiyan 3 exists and it was memorable. Ask any dragon ball fan and they remember that transformation and it had noting to do with your factors.

It was memorable for the sheer fact that Goku shook the planet and it took 5 minutes in real time.


Vegeta's transformation will be memorable for 2 reasons: it's the first one he achieved onscreen since super saiyan and its vegeta exclusive.



Should forms be like what you said, sure> But they don't have to in order to be memorable which is really all they need to be at this point. Afterall, its basic marketing.

The transformation sequence, not the form itself. The form itself isn't even close to as memorable as the previous forms. Both legendary moments that other anime take inspiration from/parody. I never see the same thing with SSJ3.

As a mere moment and nothing else. Not to mention it's surprise surprise, a useless form that accomplishes nothing. A form that really was around to look cool and do nothing else for Goku.

I doubt that. Vegeta's so called big memorable transformation is from the shallowest of reasons, and is heavily overshadowed by what people will ACTUALLY find memorable. Ultra Instinct. The form with real build up, and a whole new unique fighting style that it's still insanely viral. Compared to some form Vegeta farted out that literally makes no difference in the story at all. It's basically in the same camp as Super Saiyan Rage is.

No they don't If what you said is true then you might as well go the Dragon Ball Heroes route. Give everyone new forms so you can sell a bunch of toys. Just do hand outs left and right. Of course they can be bland and nothing. Just like Super Saiyan Rage and SSJ3 was. There's a difference between having a power up mean something, and it basically mean jack shit. Dragon Ball has done it both ways.

[Kenneth La Torre]

What if Jiren is eliminated next episode, and that's why Toppo transforms / gains God ki / becomes a God of Destruction / uses his actual power - because Vermoud gets desperate in Jiren's defeat?

So you're saying Toppo will be the final opponent and not Jiren?

Regardless, that would be interesting?

Keeps the series more unexpected than otherwise, and adds further relevance to the pre-TOP fight Goku had with Toppo

Makes no sense power wise. Jirens power surpasses a god of destruction. So toppo gaining hakaishin power would still make him weaker.

Doesnt matter Anyway, jiren is the final threat whether we like it or not

[Noah]

What if Jiren is eliminated next episode, and that's why Toppo transforms / gains God ki / becomes a God of Destruction / uses his actual power - because Vermoud gets desperate in Jiren's defeat?

I would love that, it would be quite a decent twist! We all know this arc can end in a very predictable way (Goku attains UI again but this time is able to overcome Jiren, wishes everyone back, THE END)

Toppo being the final boss would be awesome for a change.

Makes no sense power wise. Jiren's power surpasses a God of Destruction, so Toppo gaining Hakaishin power would still make him weaker.

Please, Jiren is only implied to be stronger than the Hakaishin from his universe, not all of them. Toppo intends to become a GoD some day, that's why he was with Belmod, Khai and Marcarita in the Zen Exhibition Match.

So, I see no issues in Toppo achieving a power greater than Belmod and or maybe on par with Jiren.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It is part of his reason. He mentioned it before. It's been apart of his entire arc in Super. We've seen it as early as the ROF arc. His family is the other reason, which he thinks of far more than Vegeta who mentions quite often he's out to merely be the best. Which was stated numerous times.

He's doing it out of necessity and to make up for his past failures. He took his growth very seriously as he was not going to do the same crap he pulled before. Which is way more than Vegeta who prattled on about winning the tournament to be the best more than anything else.

This does not show the evolution of those 2. It's nothing but power level nonsense. It does not show anything about that. He had no need for a new form at all. Especially when it's going to quickly be pushed right out once Ultra Instinct comes back as SSBKK means jack shit to Jiren, so that in turn means Vegeta's power up means jack shit as well. Not to mention he doesn't need to match Goku for any reason other than people want that. His power up is just as forced and thrown in as Future Trunks, except Trunks had a more satisfying reason to get one. So much so a lot of people are really upset the manga didn't give it to him.

Freeza has more story development going for him than Vegeta. He trained in a unique way that managed to skyrocket his abilities. He is completely cocky and so sure of himself despite supposedly being heavily outcast. And this is Freeza, the guy who hates when anyone is more powerful than him, and commonly freaks out when it happens. Yet now he doesn't seem bothered. If everything was merely about who trains hard, then Beerus wouldn't be much as he hardly ever trains and prefers to eat more than anything. Not to mention training hard had nothing to do with either transformation in this story arc. It was being pushed into a corner, something literally anyone can be in said situation. Not to mention despite how horribly written and handled it was for Gohan to get that powerful in like a day, that alone like Freeza is a pretty ginormous feat. Not to mention it all comes from his potential alone as his state is not a form, but his raw unlocked potential. So an actual transformation would probably be even more insane.

Why are you using the previous sagas as an argument?
If that's the case, then I can also bring Vegeta scenes thinking about his family, especially in Future Trunks saga.

I'm talking about the tournament. In the tournament, Gohan is never shown thinking about his family, and this does not mean that this is not one of his motivations.
It makes no sense to criticize Vegeta saying that in the tournament he does not think about his family when Gohan does the same.
And stop trying to lessen Vegeta's motivations to exalt those of Gohan. The two fight basically for the same thing, the difference is that Vegeta is also struggling to get a promise fulfilled (not just being the strongest). You quote things from Gohan that were not even explicit

Goku was abysmally stronger than Vegeta, with Kaioken and UI.
It was necessary that this difference of powers diminished, and that was one of the reasons for Vegeta to obtain its new form (it is also the same reason for Trunks to receive in the saga Black).
And even the SSJ Rage of Trunks was practically useless. All he managed was to hold Black and Zamasu on EP 62. But in a direct fight he even managed to scratch Black. When he defeats Merged Zamasu, he still uses the energy of everyone on Earth with his '' Genki Sword '', the reason is not even the SSJ Rage. So I do not know why to complain about the new Vegeta form that serves so much to match him to Goku, as to face Jiren in a decent way.

And Jiren is increasing his power, but even so, Goku and Vegeta can resist. It would be strange and forced if both of them did this with just the SSB.

Amount of training really does not mean everything, but why "development and hype in a saga" mean that this character must have to receive a new transformation? This does not mean that this character deserves it.
But it is very strange that a character who is years out of the struggles, without training, simply out of nothing get a new transformation and outdo everyone. That would be forced, and that's why it's much more plausible that Vegeta gets, since he's always training and looking

Because the previous saga's are basically part of his build up. They hit the same beats. I never said Vegeta didn't care about his family. I said it was far less a priority in the story. You catch him saying more that he cares about being number 1 and winning the tournament than anything else.

Because family is a central part of his character, moreso than Vegeta. It is not a central part of his character. He does not strive to get stronger to protect them. He does for the same reason that Goku does. Vegeta does not train and fight to protect others. He does it because he enjoys it. Goku also fights for his family too let's be real here, it's not like he doesn't want to protect them. It's just lower on his reason for fighting and training, as is with Vegeta. Gohan fights solely to protect. Vegeta does mainly to improve himself like Goku.

And what's wrong with that? And why is it necessary to have the power gap to be diminished? Especially when the new form means jack shit to Jiren, so all it basically does is close on gap while there's yet another large one in the way anyways. How was this transformation a culmination of Vegeta as a character or in his story arc? It's not. It's not at all built up well. It's not at all any sort of new unexplored area Vegeta has discovered. He just got it by mutually doing what he always does.

For Trunks it served as a culimation of his struggles and helplessness. How he basically just got in the way more or less as only Goku and Vegeta could do anything. It was a reward for all the horrible shit he went through. For Vegeta it's just something that will make no difference. For Trunks it did make a difference. It made a him from a useless liability into someone who could actually help.

It's very strange a character who has no real tie to the story, has no real build up, is given a completely useless form that really is only there to be cool and not serve the story. How does it change anything? How does it change the landscape of the story? It doesn't. It's a form that has no reason to exist. The moment Ultra Instinct comes back, it's basically useless. Jiren already can crush SSJBKK level. So he can crush this form when he wants to. So it's literally of no consequence.

If training was literally what mattered, then Tenshinhan and Piccolo who practically do nothing but that would surely be far more powerful than they are, but they are not. Neither of them have anything of the sort.

Here's a good quote.

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

What about this new form is a culmination of his character or a game changer? Nothing. Do you honestly believe for a second it's going to make any bit of a difference against Jiren when we all know Ultra Instinct is the only thing that can. Jiren is completely unhurt or scratched by anything they do to him. At best Vegeta's new form might beat Toppo's new power up, which may be all it ever has going for it. It has no reason to exist other than the desire for wanting Vegeta to be closer to Goku. And don't pull the same thing for Gohan. I'd have no complaints if the manga is more subdue in comparison as it doesn't really promise anything.

Does the new form enhance Vegeta's character in any way? Nope. Does it further a character arc for him in a satisfying and organic way even a little bit? Nope. Does it have any effect on the tournament? Maybe. Does it really even need to contend with Jiren? Not really. Does Vegeta have to even fight Jiren? Not really. Did Gohan have to fight Jiren? Not really. Would a new form have served his character arc? Sure. Does it have to one shot everyone like people complain about? No not at all.

A new form serves nothing for Vegeta. Outside of novelty of "Oh lookie he's closer to Goku yet still heavily inferior to his new max power".

I think you're rushing things a little bit.

This is only the second appearance of this transformation. We do not know the extent of Vegeta's powers in this form nor for what it will still be used in this tournament.
The most predictable course is for Goku to face Jiren in the end. So of course Toppo must face Vegeta.

And that is the question. Toppo is apparently going to win a big power up in the next EP, meaning he's going to be on a totally different level from Golden Freeza (this would be exactly the level where Vegeta would be without his new transformation, meaning it would be useless near Toppo) and 17.
If Vegeta is able to rival against the powered up Toppo with his new transformation, then he will have a purpose in history and will impact the plot.

And Vegeta's new form had far more impact than Trunks's SSJ Rage.
After Trunks turned, NOBODY said anything about the power of Trunks being incredible, and they did not even wonder what this new form was about (in fact, Vegeta said that Trunks was not able to beat Black shortly after he transformed himself). It's literally as if she did not exist, and she was not even able to scratch Black. So his impact on the narrative was even smaller, after all, even if it was something quick, Vegeta's new form had an explanation and surprised everyone in the audience. And for as long as it seems irrelevant for now, it serves to narrow the power gap between him and Goku, and we do not know what she's going to do now

For now, Goku is not able to activate the UI on its own. He would be totally destroyed by Jiren if he were alone. And that's why for now, Vegeta is fighting alongside him. And that is what is pressing Jiren.
Of course, we all know that Jiren is not using all his power, but he's being pressured and that's forcing him to use more and more power.
It will not be enough to defeat Jiren, but it's enough to hold him.

And it's good to remember that Jiren is using even more power than in the fight against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren than before and are being able to press them.

And Gohan's family is basically his only motivation in this tournament, and it's not like this has been explored. No matter if this was shown before, during the tournament, at no time was shown. The only character building here is about Gohan as a fighter, just that (and even with Piccolo's lessons, Gohan has failed several times in the tournament).
Yes, Vegeta trains because he is a Saiyan who loves battles, but protecting his family is a consequence of all that effort, and he undeniably fights for it. And now, he has a new motivation to fight in the tournament

[dbzfan7]

Why are you using the previous sagas as an argument?
If that's the case, then I can also bring Vegeta scenes thinking about his family, especially in Future Trunks saga.

I'm talking about the tournament. In the tournament, Gohan is never shown thinking about his family, and this does not mean that this is not one of his motivations.
It makes no sense to criticize Vegeta saying that in the tournament he does not think about his family when Gohan does the same.
And stop trying to lessen Vegeta's motivations to exalt those of Gohan. The two fight basically for the same thing, the difference is that Vegeta is also struggling to get a promise fulfilled (not just being the strongest). You quote things from Gohan that were not even explicit

Goku was abysmally stronger than Vegeta, with Kaioken and UI.
It was necessary that this difference of powers diminished, and that was one of the reasons for Vegeta to obtain its new form (it is also the same reason for Trunks to receive in the saga Black).
And even the SSJ Rage of Trunks was practically useless. All he managed was to hold Black and Zamasu on EP 62. But in a direct fight he even managed to scratch Black. When he defeats Merged Zamasu, he still uses the energy of everyone on Earth with his '' Genki Sword '', the reason is not even the SSJ Rage. So I do not know why to complain about the new Vegeta form that serves so much to match him to Goku, as to face Jiren in a decent way.

And Jiren is increasing his power, but even so, Goku and Vegeta can resist. It would be strange and forced if both of them did this with just the SSB.

Amount of training really does not mean everything, but why "development and hype in a saga" mean that this character must have to receive a new transformation? This does not mean that this character deserves it.
But it is very strange that a character who is years out of the struggles, without training, simply out of nothing get a new transformation and outdo everyone. That would be forced, and that's why it's much more plausible that Vegeta gets, since he's always training and looking

Because the previous saga's are basically part of his build up. They hit the same beats. I never said Vegeta didn't care about his family. I said it was far less a priority in the story. You catch him saying more that he cares about being number 1 and winning the tournament than anything else.

Because family is a central part of his character, moreso than Vegeta. It is not a central part of his character. He does not strive to get stronger to protect them. He does for the same reason that Goku does. Vegeta does not train and fight to protect others. He does it because he enjoys it. Goku also fights for his family too let's be real here, it's not like he doesn't want to protect them. It's just lower on his reason for fighting and training, as is with Vegeta. Gohan fights solely to protect. Vegeta does mainly to improve himself like Goku.

And what's wrong with that? And why is it necessary to have the power gap to be diminished? Especially when the new form means jack shit to Jiren, so all it basically does is close on gap while there's yet another large one in the way anyways. How was this transformation a culmination of Vegeta as a character or in his story arc? It's not. It's not at all built up well. It's not at all any sort of new unexplored area Vegeta has discovered. He just got it by mutually doing what he always does.

For Trunks it served as a culimation of his struggles and helplessness. How he basically just got in the way more or less as only Goku and Vegeta could do anything. It was a reward for all the horrible shit he went through. For Vegeta it's just something that will make no difference. For Trunks it did make a difference. It made a him from a useless liability into someone who could actually help.

It's very strange a character who has no real tie to the story, has no real build up, is given a completely useless form that really is only there to be cool and not serve the story. How does it change anything? How does it change the landscape of the story? It doesn't. It's a form that has no reason to exist. The moment Ultra Instinct comes back, it's basically useless. Jiren already can crush SSJBKK level. So he can crush this form when he wants to. So it's literally of no consequence.

If training was literally what mattered, then Tenshinhan and Piccolo who practically do nothing but that would surely be far more powerful than they are, but they are not. Neither of them have anything of the sort.

Here's a good quote.

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

What about this new form is a culmination of his character or a game changer? Nothing. Do you honestly believe for a second it's going to make any bit of a difference against Jiren when we all know Ultra Instinct is the only thing that can. Jiren is completely unhurt or scratched by anything they do to him. At best Vegeta's new form might beat Toppo's new power up, which may be all it ever has going for it. It has no reason to exist other than the desire for wanting Vegeta to be closer to Goku. And don't pull the same thing for Gohan. I'd have no complaints if the manga is more subdue in comparison as it doesn't really promise anything.

Does the new form enhance Vegeta's character in any way? Nope. Does it further a character arc for him in a satisfying and organic way even a little bit? Nope. Does it have any effect on the tournament? Maybe. Does it really even need to contend with Jiren? Not really. Does Vegeta have to even fight Jiren? Not really. Did Gohan have to fight Jiren? Not really. Would a new form have served his character arc? Sure. Does it have to one shot everyone like people complain about? No not at all.

A new form serves nothing for Vegeta. Outside of novelty of "Oh lookie he's closer to Goku yet still heavily inferior to his new max power".

I think you're rushing things a little bit.

This is only the second appearance of this transformation. We do not know the extent of Vegeta's powers in this form nor for what it will still be used in this tournament.
The most predictable course is for Goku to face Jiren in the end. So of course Toppo must face Vegeta.

And that is the question. Toppo is apparently going to win a big power up in the next EP, meaning he's going to be on a totally different level from Golden Freeza (this would be exactly the level where Vegeta would be without his new transformation, meaning it would be useless near Toppo) and 17.
If Vegeta is able to rival against the powered up Toppo with his new transformation, then he will have a purpose in history and will impact the plot.

For now, Goku is not able to activate the UI on its own. He would be totally destroyed by Jiren if he were alone. And that's why for now, Vegeta is fighting alongside him. And that is what is pressing Jiren.
Of course, we all know that Jiren is not using all his power, but he's being pressured and that's forcing him to use more and more power.
It will not be enough to defeat Jiren, but it's enough to hold him.

And it's good to remember that Jiren is using even more power than in the fight against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren than before and are being able to press them.
And Vegeta's new form had far more impact than Trunks's SSJ Rage.
After Trunks turned, NOBODY said anything about the power of Trunks being incredible, and they did not even wonder what this new form was about (in fact, Vegeta said that Trunks was not able to beat Black shortly after he transformed himself). It's literally as if she did not exist, and she was not even able to scratch Black. So his impact on the narrative was even smaller, after all, even if it was something quick, Vegeta's new form had an explanation and surprised everyone in the audience. And for as long as it seems irrelevant for now, it serves to narrow the power gap between him and Goku, and we do not know what she's going to do now

And Gohan's family is basically his only motivation in this tournament, and it's not like this has been explored. No matter if this was shown before, during the tournament, at no time was shown. The only character building here is about Gohan as a fighter, just that (and even with Piccolo's lessons, Gohan has failed several times in the tournament).
Yes, Vegeta trains because he is a Saiyan who loves battles, but protecting his family is a consequence of all that effort, and he undeniably fights for it. And now, he has a new motivation to fight in the tournament

Not really it wouldn't as instead of a new form you could instead ya know....have 17, Freeza, and Vegeta work together....rather than just have the former 2 essentially become useless. It'd be also a far more interesting dive into character interaction as well. None of which needs a new form.

It's not pressuring Jiren. He's not hurt or threatened. The minute he wants to try, it'll be just like how he crushed SSBKK Goku...which is the same level Vegeta is on....which accomplishes nothing. Not to mention how everything points to Ultra Instinct being the only hope as they keep on saying can Goku get it back so he can challenge Jiren. Anything lesser is not of any help. At best the powered up Toppo may go to Vegeta...and even then it makes the other 2 remaining people feel completely unneeded.

He's not though. At least not in the way ya think. That would mean Goku somehow got ridiculously stronger than his previous SSB state which they made a huge deal about how he's supposed to be exhausted, not getting stronger.

The form which Kais go on about, that also Vegeta trusts in Trunks to stay back in the Future as well...Compared to the new form that just lets him also still not be of any real threat. That is heavily overshadowed by a previous form that makes his completely irrelevant. Ultra Instinct is the form we know is going to be the difference maker, not some form that cutely allows Vegeta to be on par with a weaker Goku. And like I said beyond letting Vegeta reach a lower form of Goku, what does it serve? How does it serve his character outside of power? It doesn't.

It's not at all just about family, it's his biggest priority, while improving himself from his past failures is his other one. They even say it during his training. Not to mention a lot of tournament problems were because half the team refused to be team players. And even then at least family is something he's mentioned as his big role. It was part of his recruitment. Unlike Vegeta who need I saySaying that is a big part of Vegeta is like saying it's a big part of Goku. Which it isn't for either of them. It makes him not at all different from Goku. Self improvement is Vegeta's goal, not his family. He'd have joined in no matter what so long as there was a fight.

He does not have a new motivation, it's the same one he always has. And it doesn't change anything he didn't already think about before. The only difference is power level and that's it. Trunks at least had it as him rising up from suffering, watching how hopeless the situation is and rising from the ashes. Vegeta gets a inconsequential form that we all know is second fiddle to Ultra Instinct and is not going to be any sort of game changer when that was established as Ultra Instinct.

[Totamo]

Where are you getting this have to be crap? If they want to be good they do. Otherwise they just come off as yet another power up. There's a big reason why the most memorable power ups, were the culmination of characters, and not the ones that are just handed out. Some are remembered for spectacle, but the ones remembered as the most important were the ones that had to do with the characters.

If power ups were as meaningless as just something to throw around, then you might as well have Dragon Ball Heroes be the actual series as they fart out those power ups/transformations all the time. It's funny how that gets labelled as fanservice crap which is a bad thing, but then in series fan service crap is fine. The entire sequence seems like it belongs in a Dragon Ball Heroes trailer.

You keep saying this when super saiyan 3 exists and it was memorable. Ask any dragon ball fan and they remember that transformation and it had noting to do with your factors.

It was memorable for the sheer fact that Goku shook the planet and it took 5 minutes in real time.


Vegeta's transformation will be memorable for 2 reasons: it's the first one he achieved onscreen since super saiyan and its vegeta exclusive.



Should forms be like what you said, sure> But they don't have to in order to be memorable which is really all they need to be at this point. Afterall, its basic marketing.

The transformation sequence, not the form itself. The form itself isn't even close to as memorable as the previous forms. Both legendary moments that other anime take inspiration from/parody. I never see the same thing with SSJ3.

As a mere moment and nothing else. Not to mention it's surprise surprise, a useless form that accomplishes nothing. A form that really was around to look cool and do nothing else for Goku.

I doubt that. Vegeta's so called big memorable transformation is from the shallowest of reasons, and is heavily overshadowed by what people will ACTUALLY find memorable. Ultra Instinct. The form with real build up, and a whole new unique fighting style that it's still insanely viral. Compared to some form Vegeta farted out that literally makes no difference in the story at all. It's basically in the same camp as Super Saiyan Rage is.

No they don't If what you said is true then you might as well go the Dragon Ball Heroes route. Give everyone new forms so you can sell a bunch of toys. Just do hand outs left and right. Of course they can be bland and nothing. Just like Super Saiyan Rage and SSJ3 was. There's a difference between having a power up mean something, and it basically mean jack shit. Dragon Ball has done it both ways.

What even if this statement? Do you think anyone would care about super saiyan 2 if Gohan just did it, without any sequence like you just said despite it having buildup and ending his character arc, no!


Look, you and i both know, this form doesn't matter but only I seem to know, it doesn't have to. It's here because its cool and thats all it needs to be to justify it existence to the fandom that loves a game out of a powerup/transformation (fusions) that also didn't matter. Dragon ball has already gone the heroes route it was called the grades and the buu saga.



The funny thing about you complaining about this not mattering is that they later all become obsolete because they get a new one every saga. Which is why transformations arent something the franchise is praised for but laughed at.


You are treating something that has been trivial in this franchise since the Cell saga, when everyone got the legendary form that Goku had to go through hell to get, more important than it truly is which will lead to your own personal disappointment.

[Kenneth La Torre]

What if Jiren is eliminated next episode, and that's why Toppo transforms / gains God ki / becomes a God of Destruction / uses his actual power - because Vermoud gets desperate in Jiren's defeat?

I would love that, it would be quite a decent twist! We all know this arc can end in a very predictable way (Goku attains UI again but this time is able to overcome Jiren, wishes everyone back, THE END)

Toppo being the final boss would be awesome for a change.

Makes no sense power wise. Jiren's power surpasses a God of Destruction, so Toppo gaining Hakaishin power would still make him weaker.

Please, Jiren is only implied to be stronger than the Hakaishin from his universe, not all of them. Toppo intends to become a GoD some day, that's why he was with Belmod, Khai and Marcarita in the Zen Exhibition Match.

So, I see no issues in Toppo achieving a power greater than Belmod and or maybe on par with Jiren.

Oh please, its only a matter of time before he is stated to be superior than the gods in general. Belmod is also one of the strongest gods as well if we go by the manga. Stop being in denial. Jiren is gonna be the end game boss. Deal with it.

[dbzfan7]

You keep saying this when super saiyan 3 exists and it was memorable. Ask any dragon ball fan and they remember that transformation and it had noting to do with your factors.

It was memorable for the sheer fact that Goku shook the planet and it took 5 minutes in real time.


Vegeta's transformation will be memorable for 2 reasons: it's the first one he achieved onscreen since super saiyan and its vegeta exclusive.



Should forms be like what you said, sure> But they don't have to in order to be memorable which is really all they need to be at this point. Afterall, its basic marketing.

The transformation sequence, not the form itself. The form itself isn't even close to as memorable as the previous forms. Both legendary moments that other anime take inspiration from/parody. I never see the same thing with SSJ3.

As a mere moment and nothing else. Not to mention it's surprise surprise, a useless form that accomplishes nothing. A form that really was around to look cool and do nothing else for Goku.

I doubt that. Vegeta's so called big memorable transformation is from the shallowest of reasons, and is heavily overshadowed by what people will ACTUALLY find memorable. Ultra Instinct. The form with real build up, and a whole new unique fighting style that it's still insanely viral. Compared to some form Vegeta farted out that literally makes no difference in the story at all. It's basically in the same camp as Super Saiyan Rage is.

No they don't If what you said is true then you might as well go the Dragon Ball Heroes route. Give everyone new forms so you can sell a bunch of toys. Just do hand outs left and right. Of course they can be bland and nothing. Just like Super Saiyan Rage and SSJ3 was. There's a difference between having a power up mean something, and it basically mean jack shit. Dragon Ball has done it both ways.

What even if this statement? Do you think anyone would care about super saiyan 2 if Gohan just did it, without any sequence like you just said despite it having buildup and ending his character arc, no!


Look, you and i both know, this form doesn't matter but only I seem to know, it doesn't have to. It's here because its cool and thats all it needs to be to justify it existence to the fandom that loves a game out of a powerup/transformation (fusions) that also didn't matter. Dragon ball has already gone the heroes route it was called the grades and the buu saga.



The funny thing about you complaining about this not mattering is that they later all become obsolete because they get a new one every saga. Which is why transformations arent something the franchise is praised for but laughed at.


You are treating something that has been trivial in this franchise since the Cell saga, when everyone got the legendary form that Goku had to go through hell to get, more important than it truly is which will lead to your own personal disappointment.

Actually yes. For everything that it meant to his character. I mean seriously the original SSJ transformation in the manga isn't exactly all that memorable itself, and yet it's still super iconic and amazing. It's like a quick turn and that was that. Still is the most iconic form despite how the sequence was quick. For it's culmination, it's game changing and really franchise changing moment, etc.

I know it doesn't have to, doesn't make it any less shit. Dragon Ball Minus didn't need to happen the way it did either, but it doesn't make it any less of a piece of crap. Same as this form just like the Trunks form. They can do whatever they want.

Just like the characters themselves, a new transformation tends to be born from the character more often then just oh look here it is. Just like how character arcs tend to start anew, as do transformations with further sagas.

By the time the first form was gotten with Goten and Trunks it was completely irrelevant and pointless. They could have never went Super Saiyan until they fused, and the story wouldn't be different. Just like here. There could have been no form, and the story would basically be the same.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Because the previous saga's are basically part of his build up. They hit the same beats. I never said Vegeta didn't care about his family. I said it was far less a priority in the story. You catch him saying more that he cares about being number 1 and winning the tournament than anything else.

Because family is a central part of his character, moreso than Vegeta. It is not a central part of his character. He does not strive to get stronger to protect them. He does for the same reason that Goku does. Vegeta does not train and fight to protect others. He does it because he enjoys it. Goku also fights for his family too let's be real here, it's not like he doesn't want to protect them. It's just lower on his reason for fighting and training, as is with Vegeta. Gohan fights solely to protect. Vegeta does mainly to improve himself like Goku.

And what's wrong with that? And why is it necessary to have the power gap to be diminished? Especially when the new form means jack shit to Jiren, so all it basically does is close on gap while there's yet another large one in the way anyways. How was this transformation a culmination of Vegeta as a character or in his story arc? It's not. It's not at all built up well. It's not at all any sort of new unexplored area Vegeta has discovered. He just got it by mutually doing what he always does.

For Trunks it served as a culimation of his struggles and helplessness. How he basically just got in the way more or less as only Goku and Vegeta could do anything. It was a reward for all the horrible shit he went through. For Vegeta it's just something that will make no difference. For Trunks it did make a difference. It made a him from a useless liability into someone who could actually help.

It's very strange a character who has no real tie to the story, has no real build up, is given a completely useless form that really is only there to be cool and not serve the story. How does it change anything? How does it change the landscape of the story? It doesn't. It's a form that has no reason to exist. The moment Ultra Instinct comes back, it's basically useless. Jiren already can crush SSJBKK level. So he can crush this form when he wants to. So it's literally of no consequence.

If training was literally what mattered, then Tenshinhan and Piccolo who practically do nothing but that would surely be far more powerful than they are, but they are not. Neither of them have anything of the sort.

Here's a good quote.



What about this new form is a culmination of his character or a game changer? Nothing. Do you honestly believe for a second it's going to make any bit of a difference against Jiren when we all know Ultra Instinct is the only thing that can. Jiren is completely unhurt or scratched by anything they do to him. At best Vegeta's new form might beat Toppo's new power up, which may be all it ever has going for it. It has no reason to exist other than the desire for wanting Vegeta to be closer to Goku. And don't pull the same thing for Gohan. I'd have no complaints if the manga is more subdue in comparison as it doesn't really promise anything.

Does the new form enhance Vegeta's character in any way? Nope. Does it further a character arc for him in a satisfying and organic way even a little bit? Nope. Does it have any effect on the tournament? Maybe. Does it really even need to contend with Jiren? Not really. Does Vegeta have to even fight Jiren? Not really. Did Gohan have to fight Jiren? Not really. Would a new form have served his character arc? Sure. Does it have to one shot everyone like people complain about? No not at all.

A new form serves nothing for Vegeta. Outside of novelty of "Oh lookie he's closer to Goku yet still heavily inferior to his new max power".

I think you're rushing things a little bit.

This is only the second appearance of this transformation. We do not know the extent of Vegeta's powers in this form nor for what it will still be used in this tournament.
The most predictable course is for Goku to face Jiren in the end. So of course Toppo must face Vegeta.

And that is the question. Toppo is apparently going to win a big power up in the next EP, meaning he's going to be on a totally different level from Golden Freeza (this would be exactly the level where Vegeta would be without his new transformation, meaning it would be useless near Toppo) and 17.
If Vegeta is able to rival against the powered up Toppo with his new transformation, then he will have a purpose in history and will impact the plot.

For now, Goku is not able to activate the UI on its own. He would be totally destroyed by Jiren if he were alone. And that's why for now, Vegeta is fighting alongside him. And that is what is pressing Jiren.
Of course, we all know that Jiren is not using all his power, but he's being pressured and that's forcing him to use more and more power.
It will not be enough to defeat Jiren, but it's enough to hold him.

And it's good to remember that Jiren is using even more power than in the fight against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren than before and are being able to press them.
And Vegeta's new form had far more impact than Trunks's SSJ Rage.
After Trunks turned, NOBODY said anything about the power of Trunks being incredible, and they did not even wonder what this new form was about (in fact, Vegeta said that Trunks was not able to beat Black shortly after he transformed himself). It's literally as if she did not exist, and she was not even able to scratch Black. So his impact on the narrative was even smaller, after all, even if it was something quick, Vegeta's new form had an explanation and surprised everyone in the audience. And for as long as it seems irrelevant for now, it serves to narrow the power gap between him and Goku, and we do not know what she's going to do now

And Gohan's family is basically his only motivation in this tournament, and it's not like this has been explored. No matter if this was shown before, during the tournament, at no time was shown. The only character building here is about Gohan as a fighter, just that (and even with Piccolo's lessons, Gohan has failed several times in the tournament).
Yes, Vegeta trains because he is a Saiyan who loves battles, but protecting his family is a consequence of all that effort, and he undeniably fights for it. And now, he has a new motivation to fight in the tournament

Not really it wouldn't as instead of a new form you could instead ya know....have 17, Freeza, and Vegeta work together....rather than just have the former 2 essentially become useless. It'd be also a far more interesting dive into character interaction as well. None of which needs a new form.

It's not pressuring Jiren. He's not hurt or threatened. The minute he wants to try, it'll be just like how he crushed SSBKK Goku...which is the same level Vegeta is on....which accomplishes nothing. Not to mention how everything points to Ultra Instinct being the only hope as they keep on saying can Goku get it back so he can challenge Jiren. Anything lesser is not of any help. At best the powered up Toppo may go to Vegeta...and even then it makes the other 2 remaining people feel completely unneeded.

He's not though. At least not in the way ya think. That would mean Goku somehow got ridiculously stronger than his previous SSB state which they made a huge deal about how he's supposed to be exhausted, not getting stronger.

The form which Kais go on about, that also Vegeta trusts in Trunks to stay back in the Future as well...Compared to the new form that just lets him also still not be of any real threat. That is heavily overshadowed by a previous form that makes his completely irrelevant. Ultra Instinct is the form we know is going to be the difference maker, not some form that cutely allows Vegeta to be on par with a weaker Goku. And like I said beyond letting Vegeta reach a lower form of Goku, what does it serve? How does it serve his character outside of power? It doesn't.

It's not at all just about family, it's his biggest priority, while improving himself from his past failures is his other one. They even say it during his training. Not to mention a lot of tournament problems were because half the team refused to be team players. And even then at least family is something he's mentioned as his big role. It was part of his recruitment. Unlike Vegeta who need I saySaying that is a big part of Vegeta is like saying it's a big part of Goku. Which it isn't for either of them. It makes him not at all different from Goku. Self improvement is Vegeta's goal, not his family. He'd have joined in no matter what so long as there was a fight.

He does not have a new motivation, it's the same one he always has. And it doesn't change anything he didn't already think about before. The only difference is power level and that's it. Trunks at least had it as him rising up from suffering, watching how hopeless the situation is and rising from the ashes. Vegeta gets a inconsequential form that we all know is second fiddle to Ultra Instinct and is not going to be any sort of game changer when that was established as Ultra Instinct.

How Freeza, 17 and Vegeta working together would they be able to stop someone like Toppo after the power up of EP 125? Honestly, I'd really like to see them working together (this was one of the things I wanted most in the tournament, but at the beginning everyone just ignored Gohan's strategy), but that would only get the 3 out of Toppo quickly, and everything would be in Goku's hands again (making everything even more predictable).

And Goku really is MUCH stronger than before. In EP 123, according to Vermoud, Jiren used a power he had not seen for a long time (that is, he did not use that power against UI Goku), and even then Goku SSB was able to take it. (he held out much more than Goku on EP 109, against an even more suppressed Jiren).
That is, Goku and Vegeta are holding out against a much stronger Jiren than in the fight against UI. And they would never be able to do that using only a common SSB.
And that's why Jiren would not defeat Goku SSB KK x20 as easily as last time

Vegeta relied on Trunks not solely because of his new transformation, but because Trunks practically begged Vegeta to return to the past. And that was the only way Goku and Vegeta could find a way to defeat Black, they had no choice.

The ONLY quote about Trunks' transformation into the whole saga was against Merged Zamasu, in which Gowasu questions whether that was the power of rage, just that. Everyone treated her as if she did not exist, and she was not relevant to Black.

And the UI is something that Goku can not even activate alone. Other than that, all he has is the SSB KK x20, and now Vegeta has achieved that power as well. So yes, somehow that does. And it's something important for them to be able to face Jiren
Anyway, it's obvious that Jiren is not using all his power, but he's being pressured and that's clear in the episode. He's being pressured using far more power than before, and that would not be possible if Vegeta had not gotten his new transformation

And it makes no sense for you to say that Goku and Vegeta see their families in the same way.
Vegeta does not fight for his family, unlike Gohan, but she is also part of Vegeta's motivation (which involves simply getting stronger). This is clear in FT Saga, in which Vegeta gets extremely angry at what Black did to his family

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta himself says on EP 60 that he is not fighting Black for his own sake, but for Trunks and his future.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So Vegeta's family is not their main motivation, but it's part of it, much more than Chichi and Goten are part of Goku's motivation

The point is that Vegeta not only has his family as motivation now, but Kyabe and the Saiyans of U6. It makes no sense that you try to say that Gohan has "much more motivation," and that in addition to his family, he only sought to correct his mistakes

[dbzfan7]

I think you're rushing things a little bit.

This is only the second appearance of this transformation. We do not know the extent of Vegeta's powers in this form nor for what it will still be used in this tournament.
The most predictable course is for Goku to face Jiren in the end. So of course Toppo must face Vegeta.

And that is the question. Toppo is apparently going to win a big power up in the next EP, meaning he's going to be on a totally different level from Golden Freeza (this would be exactly the level where Vegeta would be without his new transformation, meaning it would be useless near Toppo) and 17.
If Vegeta is able to rival against the powered up Toppo with his new transformation, then he will have a purpose in history and will impact the plot.

For now, Goku is not able to activate the UI on its own. He would be totally destroyed by Jiren if he were alone. And that's why for now, Vegeta is fighting alongside him. And that is what is pressing Jiren.
Of course, we all know that Jiren is not using all his power, but he's being pressured and that's forcing him to use more and more power.
It will not be enough to defeat Jiren, but it's enough to hold him.

And it's good to remember that Jiren is using even more power than in the fight against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren than before and are being able to press them.
And Vegeta's new form had far more impact than Trunks's SSJ Rage.
After Trunks turned, NOBODY said anything about the power of Trunks being incredible, and they did not even wonder what this new form was about (in fact, Vegeta said that Trunks was not able to beat Black shortly after he transformed himself). It's literally as if she did not exist, and she was not even able to scratch Black. So his impact on the narrative was even smaller, after all, even if it was something quick, Vegeta's new form had an explanation and surprised everyone in the audience. And for as long as it seems irrelevant for now, it serves to narrow the power gap between him and Goku, and we do not know what she's going to do now

And Gohan's family is basically his only motivation in this tournament, and it's not like this has been explored. No matter if this was shown before, during the tournament, at no time was shown. The only character building here is about Gohan as a fighter, just that (and even with Piccolo's lessons, Gohan has failed several times in the tournament).
Yes, Vegeta trains because he is a Saiyan who loves battles, but protecting his family is a consequence of all that effort, and he undeniably fights for it. And now, he has a new motivation to fight in the tournament

Not really it wouldn't as instead of a new form you could instead ya know....have 17, Freeza, and Vegeta work together....rather than just have the former 2 essentially become useless. It'd be also a far more interesting dive into character interaction as well. None of which needs a new form.

It's not pressuring Jiren. He's not hurt or threatened. The minute he wants to try, it'll be just like how he crushed SSBKK Goku...which is the same level Vegeta is on....which accomplishes nothing. Not to mention how everything points to Ultra Instinct being the only hope as they keep on saying can Goku get it back so he can challenge Jiren. Anything lesser is not of any help. At best the powered up Toppo may go to Vegeta...and even then it makes the other 2 remaining people feel completely unneeded.

He's not though. At least not in the way ya think. That would mean Goku somehow got ridiculously stronger than his previous SSB state which they made a huge deal about how he's supposed to be exhausted, not getting stronger.

The form which Kais go on about, that also Vegeta trusts in Trunks to stay back in the Future as well...Compared to the new form that just lets him also still not be of any real threat. That is heavily overshadowed by a previous form that makes his completely irrelevant. Ultra Instinct is the form we know is going to be the difference maker, not some form that cutely allows Vegeta to be on par with a weaker Goku. And like I said beyond letting Vegeta reach a lower form of Goku, what does it serve? How does it serve his character outside of power? It doesn't.

It's not at all just about family, it's his biggest priority, while improving himself from his past failures is his other one. They even say it during his training. Not to mention a lot of tournament problems were because half the team refused to be team players. And even then at least family is something he's mentioned as his big role. It was part of his recruitment. Unlike Vegeta who need I saySaying that is a big part of Vegeta is like saying it's a big part of Goku. Which it isn't for either of them. It makes him not at all different from Goku. Self improvement is Vegeta's goal, not his family. He'd have joined in no matter what so long as there was a fight.

He does not have a new motivation, it's the same one he always has. And it doesn't change anything he didn't already think about before. The only difference is power level and that's it. Trunks at least had it as him rising up from suffering, watching how hopeless the situation is and rising from the ashes. Vegeta gets a inconsequential form that we all know is second fiddle to Ultra Instinct and is not going to be any sort of game changer when that was established as Ultra Instinct.

How Freeza, 17 and Vegeta working together would they be able to stop someone like Toppo after the power up of EP 125? Honestly, I'd really like to see them working together (this was one of the things I wanted most in the tournament, but at the beginning everyone just ignored Gohan's strategy), but that would only get the 3 out of Toppo quickly, and everything would be in Goku's hands again (making everything even more predictable).

And Goku really is MUCH stronger than before. In EP 123, according to Vermoud, Jiren used a power he had not seen for a long time (that is, he did not use that power against UI Goku), and even then Goku SSB was able to take it. (he held out much more than Goku on EP 109, against an even more suppressed Jiren).
That is, Goku and Vegeta are holding out against a much stronger Jiren than in the fight against UI. And they would never be able to do that using only a common SSB.
And that's why Jiren would not defeat Goku SSB KK x20 as easily as last time

Vegeta relied on Trunks not solely because of his new transformation, but because Trunks practically begged Vegeta to return to the past. And that was the only way Goku and Vegeta could find a way to defeat Black, they had no choice.

The ONLY quote about Trunks' transformation into the whole saga was against Merged Zamasu, in which Gowasu questions whether that was the power of rage, just that. Everyone treated her as if she did not exist, and she was not relevant to Black.

And the UI is something that Goku can not even activate alone. Other than that, all he has is the SSB KK x20, and now Vegeta has achieved that power as well. So yes, somehow that does. And it's something important for them to be able to face Jiren
Anyway, it's obvious that Jiren is not using all his power, but he's being pressured and that's clear in the episode. He's being pressured using far more power than before, and that would not be possible if Vegeta had not gotten his new transformation

And it makes no sense for you to say that Goku and Vegeta see their families in the same way.
Vegeta does not fight for his family, unlike Gohan, but she is also part of Vegeta's motivation (which involves simply getting stronger). This is clear in FT Saga, in which Vegeta gets extremely angry at what Black did to his family

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta himself says on EP 60 that he is not fighting Black for his own sake, but for Trunks and his future.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So Vegeta's family is not their main motivation, but it's part of it, much more than Chichi and Goten are part of Goku's motivation

The point is that Vegeta not only has his family as motivation now, but Kyabe and the Saiyans of U6. It makes no sense that you try to say that Gohan has "much more motivation," and that in addition to his family, he only sought to correct his mistakes

It's the same as Goku as if you want to pull that shit, need I remind of that scene where Goku gets super pissed off when it's said Black killed Chi Chi and Goten? He went absolutely ballistic.

At this point all I can add to this conversation is we wait to see how everything plays out. So then there's more to talk about and less to speculate about. I'd just be talking about how power levels mean jack shit in Super so even trying to use them as any form of leverage is pointless to justify anything. I'm just repeating my points and this is going nowhere. I could very well be wrong once the last couple episodes drop. At this point I'm just gonna wait and see if my mind is changed.

I see what they tried to do for Vegeta, but they have done a shit job in the execution. Hopefully they can salvage this before the end.

[Kaiosama]

Because the previous saga's are basically part of his build up. They hit the same beats. I never said Vegeta didn't care about his family. I said it was far less a priority in the story. You catch him saying more that he cares about being number 1 and winning the tournament than anything else.

Because family is a central part of his character, moreso than Vegeta. It is not a central part of his character. He does not strive to get stronger to protect them. He does for the same reason that Goku does. Vegeta does not train and fight to protect others. He does it because he enjoys it. Goku also fights for his family too let's be real here, it's not like he doesn't want to protect them. It's just lower on his reason for fighting and training, as is with Vegeta. Gohan fights solely to protect. Vegeta does mainly to improve himself like Goku.

And what's wrong with that? And why is it necessary to have the power gap to be diminished? Especially when the new form means jack shit to Jiren, so all it basically does is close on gap while there's yet another large one in the way anyways. How was this transformation a culmination of Vegeta as a character or in his story arc? It's not. It's not at all built up well. It's not at all any sort of new unexplored area Vegeta has discovered. He just got it by mutually doing what he always does.

For Trunks it served as a culimation of his struggles and helplessness. How he basically just got in the way more or less as only Goku and Vegeta could do anything. It was a reward for all the horrible shit he went through. For Vegeta it's just something that will make no difference. For Trunks it did make a difference. It made a him from a useless liability into someone who could actually help.

It's very strange a character who has no real tie to the story, has no real build up, is given a completely useless form that really is only there to be cool and not serve the story. How does it change anything? How does it change the landscape of the story? It doesn't. It's a form that has no reason to exist. The moment Ultra Instinct comes back, it's basically useless. Jiren already can crush SSJBKK level. So he can crush this form when he wants to. So it's literally of no consequence.

If training was literally what mattered, then Tenshinhan and Piccolo who practically do nothing but that would surely be far more powerful than they are, but they are not. Neither of them have anything of the sort.

Here's a good quote.



What about this new form is a culmination of his character or a game changer? Nothing. Do you honestly believe for a second it's going to make any bit of a difference against Jiren when we all know Ultra Instinct is the only thing that can. Jiren is completely unhurt or scratched by anything they do to him. At best Vegeta's new form might beat Toppo's new power up, which may be all it ever has going for it. It has no reason to exist other than the desire for wanting Vegeta to be closer to Goku. And don't pull the same thing for Gohan. I'd have no complaints if the manga is more subdue in comparison as it doesn't really promise anything.

Does the new form enhance Vegeta's character in any way? Nope. Does it further a character arc for him in a satisfying and organic way even a little bit? Nope. Does it have any effect on the tournament? Maybe. Does it really even need to contend with Jiren? Not really. Does Vegeta have to even fight Jiren? Not really. Did Gohan have to fight Jiren? Not really. Would a new form have served his character arc? Sure. Does it have to one shot everyone like people complain about? No not at all.

A new form serves nothing for Vegeta. Outside of novelty of "Oh lookie he's closer to Goku yet still heavily inferior to his new max power".

I think you're rushing things a little bit.

This is only the second appearance of this transformation. We do not know the extent of Vegeta's powers in this form nor for what it will still be used in this tournament.
The most predictable course is for Goku to face Jiren in the end. So of course Toppo must face Vegeta.

And that is the question. Toppo is apparently going to win a big power up in the next EP, meaning he's going to be on a totally different level from Golden Freeza (this would be exactly the level where Vegeta would be without his new transformation, meaning it would be useless near Toppo) and 17.
If Vegeta is able to rival against the powered up Toppo with his new transformation, then he will have a purpose in history and will impact the plot.

For now, Goku is not able to activate the UI on its own. He would be totally destroyed by Jiren if he were alone. And that's why for now, Vegeta is fighting alongside him. And that is what is pressing Jiren.
Of course, we all know that Jiren is not using all his power, but he's being pressured and that's forcing him to use more and more power.
It will not be enough to defeat Jiren, but it's enough to hold him.

And it's good to remember that Jiren is using even more power than in the fight against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren than before and are being able to press them.
And Vegeta's new form had far more impact than Trunks's SSJ Rage.
After Trunks turned, NOBODY said anything about the power of Trunks being incredible, and they did not even wonder what this new form was about (in fact, Vegeta said that Trunks was not able to beat Black shortly after he transformed himself). It's literally as if she did not exist, and she was not even able to scratch Black. So his impact on the narrative was even smaller, after all, even if it was something quick, Vegeta's new form had an explanation and surprised everyone in the audience. And for as long as it seems irrelevant for now, it serves to narrow the power gap between him and Goku, and we do not know what she's going to do now

And Gohan's family is basically his only motivation in this tournament, and it's not like this has been explored. No matter if this was shown before, during the tournament, at no time was shown. The only character building here is about Gohan as a fighter, just that (and even with Piccolo's lessons, Gohan has failed several times in the tournament).
Yes, Vegeta trains because he is a Saiyan who loves battles, but protecting his family is a consequence of all that effort, and he undeniably fights for it. And now, he has a new motivation to fight in the tournament

Not really it wouldn't as instead of a new form you could instead ya know....have 17, Freeza, and Vegeta work together....rather than just have the former 2 essentially become useless. It'd be also a far more interesting dive into character interaction as well. None of which needs a new form.

It's not pressuring Jiren. He's not hurt or threatened. The minute he wants to try, it'll be just like how he crushed SSBKK Goku...which is the same level Vegeta is on....which accomplishes nothing. Not to mention how everything points to Ultra Instinct being the only hope as they keep on saying can Goku get it back so he can challenge Jiren. Anything lesser is not of any help. At best the powered up Toppo may go to Vegeta...and even then it makes the other 2 remaining people feel completely unneeded.

He's not though. At least not in the way ya think. That would mean Goku somehow got ridiculously stronger than his previous SSB state which they made a huge deal about how he's supposed to be exhausted, not getting stronger.

The form which Kais go on about, that also Vegeta trusts in Trunks to stay back in the Future as well...Compared to the new form that just lets him also still not be of any real threat. That is heavily overshadowed by a previous form that makes his completely irrelevant. Ultra Instinct is the form we know is going to be the difference maker, not some form that cutely allows Vegeta to be on par with a weaker Goku. And like I said beyond letting Vegeta reach a lower form of Goku, what does it serve? How does it serve his character outside of power? It doesn't.

It's not at all just about family, it's his biggest priority, while improving himself from his past failures is his other one. They even say it during his training. Not to mention a lot of tournament problems were because half the team refused to be team players. And even then at least family is something he's mentioned as his big role. It was part of his recruitment. Unlike Vegeta who need I saySaying that is a big part of Vegeta is like saying it's a big part of Goku. Which it isn't for either of them. It makes him not at all different from Goku. Self improvement is Vegeta's goal, not his family. He'd have joined in no matter what so long as there was a fight.

He does not have a new motivation, it's the same one he always has. And it doesn't change anything he didn't already think about before. The only difference is power level and that's it. Trunks at least had it as him rising up from suffering, watching how hopeless the situation is and rising from the ashes. Vegeta gets a inconsequential form that we all know is second fiddle to Ultra Instinct and is not going to be any sort of game changer when that was established as Ultra Instinct.

UI isn't a transformation, it's a technique utilized by the GoD and Angels. Goku just happens to need his Limit Breaker transformation to access the technique. Vegeta could probably utilize that technique in his Limit Breaker form as well, and I bet that's what the endgame will be, but I don't think it will be at Goku's level by the end of the series. Both of their forms have the same eyes, so there has to be a reason for that. Right now he may be at KKX20 level, but he's going to have to get stronger before it's all said and done, otherwise he won't be able to beat Toppo much less continue to be useful against Jiren if Jiren releases more of his power.

[dbzfan7]

UI isn't a transformation, it's a technique utilized by the GoD and Angels. Goku just happens to need his Limit Breaker transformation to access the technique. Vegeta could probably utilize that technique in his Limit Breaker form as well, and bet that's what the endgame will be, but I don't think it will be at Goku's level by the end of the series. Both of their forms have the same eyes, so there has to be a reason for that. Right now he may be at KKX20 level, but he's going to have to get stronger before it's all said and done, otherwise he won't be able to beat Toppo much less continue to be useful against Jiren if Jiren releases more of his power.

It's treated as a form quite a lot. Not to mention it's pretty much called Ultra Instinct and never limit breaker so far. Unless they change the name for marketing.

Otherwise all I can say is I don't know. Episode with God Toppo ain't out yet.

[Totamo]

The transformation sequence, not the form itself. The form itself isn't even close to as memorable as the previous forms. Both legendary moments that other anime take inspiration from/parody. I never see the same thing with SSJ3.

As a mere moment and nothing else. Not to mention it's surprise surprise, a useless form that accomplishes nothing. A form that really was around to look cool and do nothing else for Goku.

I doubt that. Vegeta's so called big memorable transformation is from the shallowest of reasons, and is heavily overshadowed by what people will ACTUALLY find memorable. Ultra Instinct. The form with real build up, and a whole new unique fighting style that it's still insanely viral. Compared to some form Vegeta farted out that literally makes no difference in the story at all. It's basically in the same camp as Super Saiyan Rage is.

No they don't If what you said is true then you might as well go the Dragon Ball Heroes route. Give everyone new forms so you can sell a bunch of toys. Just do hand outs left and right. Of course they can be bland and nothing. Just like Super Saiyan Rage and SSJ3 was. There's a difference between having a power up mean something, and it basically mean jack shit. Dragon Ball has done it both ways.

What even if this statement? Do you think anyone would care about super saiyan 2 if Gohan just did it, without any sequence like you just said despite it having buildup and ending his character arc, no!


Look, you and i both know, this form doesn't matter but only I seem to know, it doesn't have to. It's here because its cool and thats all it needs to be to justify it existence to the fandom that loves a game out of a powerup/transformation (fusions) that also didn't matter. Dragon ball has already gone the heroes route it was called the grades and the buu saga.



The funny thing about you complaining about this not mattering is that they later all become obsolete because they get a new one every saga. Which is why transformations arent something the franchise is praised for but laughed at.


You are treating something that has been trivial in this franchise since the Cell saga, when everyone got the legendary form that Goku had to go through hell to get, more important than it truly is which will lead to your own personal disappointment.

Actually yes. For everything that it meant to his character. I mean seriously the original SSJ transformation in the manga isn't exactly all that memorable itself, and yet it's still super iconic and amazing. It's like a quick turn and that was that. Still is the most iconic form despite how the sequence was quick. For it's culmination, it's game changing and really franchise changing moment, etc.

I know it doesn't have to, doesn't make it any less shit. Dragon Ball Minus didn't need to happen the way it did either, but it doesn't make it any less of a piece of crap. Same as this form just like the Trunks form. They can do whatever they want.

Just like the characters themselves, a new transformation tends to be born from the character more often then just oh look here it is. Just like how character arcs tend to start anew, as do transformations with further sagas.

By the time the first form was gotten with Goten and Trunks it was completely irrelevant and pointless. They could have never went Super Saiyan until they fused, and the story wouldn't be different. Just like here. There could have been no form, and the story would basically be the same.

No, people don't care that super saiyan 2 was meant for Gohan's character. They care because he started beating the shit out of Cell. Had Gohan got defeated, no one would like that form because yes, we are that shallow of a fandom. Broly is our most popular movie villain.

The super saiyan sequence from the anime was from the manga only longer, you....... Not to mention ask most fans which one was more memorable anime or manga, and they will tell you the anime.


You are just wrong because this form will be put in games, cards and merchandise and it will sell simply because its cool and thats all that matters, really. If you think, more does than tell me one small thing.

Why do so many fans care about Vegito and Gotenks when they didn't change anything or capped character arcs?



and if you know it doesn't have to be, you are essential complaining about the sky being blue and not purple. What is the point if you know it doesn't really matter. Its meant to sell because its cool, thats what dragon ball is essential, it makes money because its cool.

[Kaiosama]

UI isn't a transformation, it's a technique utilized by the GoD and Angels. Goku just happens to need his Limit Breaker transformation to access the technique. Vegeta could probably utilize that technique in his Limit Breaker form as well, and bet that's what the endgame will be, but I don't think it will be at Goku's level by the end of the series. Both of their forms have the same eyes, so there has to be a reason for that. Right now he may be at KKX20 level, but he's going to have to get stronger before it's all said and done, otherwise he won't be able to beat Toppo much less continue to be useful against Jiren if Jiren releases more of his power.

It's treated as a form quite a lot. Not to mention it's pretty much called Ultra Instinct and never limit breaker so far. Unless they change the name for marketing.

Otherwise all I can say is I don't know. Episode with God Toppo ain't out yet.

It's treated more like a form for Goku because he can't use the technique unless he's in his "Omen" form, which is his "limit breaking" power. The "heat" in the form has nothing to do with the UI technique itself, otherwise they would have noticed that when Beerus was using it against the other Gods. Now it's heavily implied that the form will evolve (hence the name "Omen") and allow him to utilize both moving and attacking without thinking.

I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of Goku's form being superior to Vegeta's right now, but Vegeta will probably start to utilize aspects of the technique in his own form eventually, otherwise he will never be able to lay a hand on Goku or Beerus again and will most likely be useless against a GoD level fighter (like Toppo).

[TekTheNinja]

Goodbye, sweet prince.

Those who hated Super finally got their wish, the rest of us shall hang our heads in shame.

I hate Super, but I don't want it to end, or at least I don't want Dragon Ball to end. Not now. Now feels like about the worst possible time to end it. It just feels so abrupt. There's so much left to do and even though I'd probably hate the way it's done, some part of me still wants it to happen. Stuff like planet Sadala, surpassing End of Z, Hit fighting at full potential, the unexplored universes, the universes who weren't even in the tournament of power, etcetera! There's so much left that has been laid out and people wanna see, that ending here feels wrong.

[Noah]

Please, Jiren is only implied to be stronger than the Hakaishin from his universe, not all of them. Toppo intends to become a GoD some day, that's why he was with Belmod, Khai and Marcarita in the Zen Exhibition Match. So, I see no issues in Toppo achieving a power greater than Belmod and or maybe on par with Jiren.

Oh please, its only a matter of time before he is stated to be superior than the gods in general.

Oh wait for it then, cause I don't think it will happen any sooner

Belmod is also one of the strongest gods as well if we go by the manga...

But, we don't. Super anime is it's own thing and the main product while the manga it's a side one

Also I'm not in denial for Jiren being the final boss, just that he could be tossed aside for an unexpected twist in this arc probably predictable finale.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Long time no visit this thread. Anyway I don't understand this rebranding idea that fans are throwing around if DB comes back to TV it needs to be under DBS brand. For the first one and half years of DBS' run the marketing and merchandising dept were fearful and thus lumbering. They finally got their shit together in 2017 and everything is now how it should have been when the show started. But moreover the DBS brand now is incredibly strong like ridiculously strong to the point where they are now branding Super after Z, I crap you not... "Dragon Ball Z Super" .... or lines just completely shifting over to DBS. Meanwhile Z branded merch is currently struggling to shift, obviously DBS is new compared to Z but it is Z for example the BoS Z branded Goku only out last month you can get for as low as 600yen and from May this line is going over to DBS.

A rebrand will be literally be back to square one it will undo everything they've done, the marketing dept I assume are run by a bunch of jokers (brilliant idea to start marketing Goku's new form when the show is f**king over!) any excuse not to market anything they won't so the fact we got here I don't want all that undone.

Side note: Goku Black is now being marketed as being from Universe 10 so I guess they're doing that now.

Side note #2: Now DBS is over I hope they go and market all the chars they missed out, from this arc the only new chars they marketed have been:

[spoiler]1. Jiren (All sorts)
2. Kale/Cauli/Kafla (one mini figure each and one extra mini keycahin for Kafla and appearances in stickers/art cards)
3. Quitela/Bergamo (one mini keycahin each)[/spoiler]

[Neon Z]

A rebrand will be literally be back to square one it will undo everything they've done, the marketing dept I assume are run by a bunch of jokers (brilliant idea to start marketing Goku's new form when the show is f**king over!) any excuse not to market anything they won't so the fact we got here I don't want all that undone.

Isn't Super's success a point in favor of a rebranding though? It shows that the new series branding creates excitement and doesn't lose the old market, which is why they're finally phasing out the "Z" from some products.

One of the main points suggesting they might be considering a rebrand is that the movie has been announced as just a "Dragonball" movie rather than a "Dragonball Super" movie.