"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[sintzu]

Gohan didn't get one single new transformation in all of Super, yet Goku got 3 (4 if you count Blue Kaio-ken), and Vegeta got 2. Even Future Trunks got something new.

Stick a fork in him, Toriyama is done with Gohan. They couldn't even throw him a bone.

Vegeta got 3 if you count his manga's red form.

[Ki Breaker]

Gohan's confidence in him being able to beat the shit out of golden freeza says it all..
That turn he did reminded me of the time of his arrival when he first achieved the Ultimate power..
Such a fucking badass and this time, bonus points for him being able to handel his partners fuck up on the spot!
Seriously Freeza, that's all the power your so called golden form is capable of? Pffth, step aside and let real men handle this

[dbzfan7]

So why would Gohan deserve a new transformation? How much did he train or look for? Because he basically says that with a few hours left before the tournament starts, he does not even have much time to reach

What is his big motivation in this tournament, besides his family? What is his desire with the SDB, in case he won? None of this has been explored, and no, he does not fight to protect more people than Vegeta. Both fight for their families, taking the fact that Vegeta is now also fighting for Kyabe and all the Saiyans of U6.

Vegeta thought of Kyabe because he is already dead, and because he promised that he would revive all of U6, that is, he carries a burden. That is why he has attained his new form.
It does not mean he does not think of his family. So, does Gohan also not fight for his family in this tournament? After all, we had no scene of him thinking about her

Gohan just said he was looking for a supreme form in one episode. Then he never said that again. So it's no different from Vegeta's situation

If Vegeta did not get a new form, then he would be a nuisance in the fight against Jiren and would not be able to do anything against him (after getting this new form, Goku and Vegeta are managing to push Jiren, which he did not do before).

To fulfill the character arc we were set up with since like episode 30 of Dragon Ball Super. As well as the expansion in 90 or 88. Whichever it was. Of course he wouldn't reach it in training time, but through hardships in the tournament itself. You know to fulfill a character arc. A beginning, middle, and end. Not just a beginning, middle, and then cold shoulder.

He fights more than just to protect his family, he fights to make up for how much he has failed lately. He has commented on how powerless he was. The Super Dragon Balls are not what he is after. He wants to not be a burden no more. He doesn't want to be that green tracksuit guy who got destroyed by Freeza, nor that guy who Future Trunks couldn't confide in because he'd be too weak to be of use anyways.

He does think about them, hell he relects on them and his actions when beating Obuni. Vegeta NEVER thought of his family. At all. They were so unimportant in comparison that a boy he knew for a day was more of a trigger than the thought of his new born baby girl being wiped out. A boy he only has a racial tie to and nothing else. There chemisty boils down to you're a saiyan, and I'm a saiyan. What else do they actually share a kinship on? Cabba is the complete opposite of Vegeta. The only reason he even has any interest in him is because of him being saiyan, and that's it. Has nothing to do with his personality, whether he likes him as a person, but only because he's saiyan. Not even because of his power because his power is nothing. He's another saiyan...and that's it.

What Gohan said was a set up before the tournament and also apart of his desire to not be a burden no more. That's why he got angry at his dad for not taking him seriously. Because he would never get anywhere if he never went all out even if he'd lose. Gohan's story is a coming of age arc after falling from grace. A story of a person who took his peace too much for granted, and almost paid for it. Vegeta's story is nothing. It doesn't revolve around Universe 6, it just happens to happens to just coincide with the one thing he actually said a bunch of times in the tournament. To be the winner. To be the best. The thing he said way more than anything else.

He is still a nuisance. Merely having his own base Super Saiyan Blue form be above Goku's is more than enough as it's not like it wasn't already in the Black Arc where he did much better against Black than Goku ever did. Him having a new form is utterly pointless, especially when Jiren is holding back so much that once he actually gets serious, it'll take Ultra Instinct to do anything with Vegeta being nothing again since SSJBKK is nothing to Jiren anyways. All he's done with Goku is push Jiren...that's it. Not even hurt him in the slightest.

Hell Freeza deserves an upgrade more than Vegeta does. He has more ties to the central plot, an ongoing theme, and he had been doing training too. He arguably has even more story significance than Gohan too.

Most of the things you said were just lessons that Piccolo gave to Gohan in training, not a reason why he fights in this tournament. He understood his weaknesses and struggled to improve them, this is not a motivation or the reason he wants to participate in the tournament.
The main reason he fights now is for his family, and he made that clear before attending the Exhibition tournament

And we all know that Gohan never wanted to be a fighter. He is doing this now out of necessity, and as a consequence he is trying to fix his previous failures in the tournament, that's all. It does not mean that the character's arc is to return the struggles, redeem themselves and simply get a new transformation and overcome everyone again.
And the only time that Gohan is apparently thinking of his family is against Obuni. At no other time do we see that being his motivation, so there's no need to complain about it with Vegeta (though it's clear he's both fighting for his family, and that does not have to be shown).

And Jiren in this fight is using more power than against UI Goku, meaning Vegeta and Goku are facing a much stronger Jiren and are managing to pressure him.
This shows the evolution of the two and would not be able if only Goku fought alone, it was necessary for Vegeta to get something new, in addition to match the SSB KK.

Freeza deserves another upgrade than Vegeta? The same guy who spent 1 year in hell training mentally? He does not even want to face Jiren, just save energy and be the last to stay in the arena.

It is part of his reason. He mentioned it before. It's been apart of his entire arc in Super. We've seen it as early as the ROF arc. His family is the other reason, which he thinks of far more than Vegeta who mentions quite often he's out to merely be the best. Which was stated numerous times.

He's doing it out of necessity and to make up for his past failures. He took his growth very seriously as he was not going to do the same crap he pulled before. Which is way more than Vegeta who prattled on about winning the tournament to be the best more than anything else.

This does not show the evolution of those 2. It's nothing but power level nonsense. It does not show anything about that. He had no need for a new form at all. Especially when it's going to quickly be pushed right out once Ultra Instinct comes back as SSBKK means jack shit to Jiren, so that in turn means Vegeta's power up means jack shit as well. Not to mention he doesn't need to match Goku for any reason other than people want that. His power up is just as forced and thrown in as Future Trunks, except Trunks had a more satisfying reason to get one. So much so a lot of people are really upset the manga didn't give it to him.

Freeza has more story development going for him than Vegeta. He trained in a unique way that managed to skyrocket his abilities. He is completely cocky and so sure of himself despite supposedly being heavily outcast. And this is Freeza, the guy who hates when anyone is more powerful than him, and commonly freaks out when it happens. Yet now he doesn't seem bothered. If everything was merely about who trains hard, then Beerus wouldn't be much as he hardly ever trains and prefers to eat more than anything. Not to mention training hard had nothing to do with either transformation in this story arc. It was being pushed into a corner, something literally anyone can be in said situation. Not to mention despite how horribly written and handled it was for Gohan to get that powerful in like a day, that alone like Freeza is a pretty ginormous feat. Not to mention it all comes from his potential alone as his state is not a form, but his raw unlocked potential. So an actual transformation would probably be even more insane.

[Black Hawk]

Gohan's confidence in him being able to beat the shit out of golden freeza says it all..
That turn he did reminded me of the time of his arrival when he first achieved the Ultimate power..
Such a fucking badass and this time, bonus points for him being able to handel his partners fuck up on the spot!
Seriously Freeza, that's all the power your so called golden form is capable of? Pffth, step aside and let real men handle this

That scene made me fangirl so loudly; Gohan-kun's face zoomed in as he glared back at Golden Freeza is my new background.

[Ki Breaker]

Gohan's confidence in him being able to beat the shit out of golden freeza says it all..
That turn he did reminded me of the time of his arrival when he first achieved the Ultimate power..
Such a fucking badass and this time, bonus points for him being able to handel his partners fuck up on the spot!
Seriously Freeza, that's all the power your so called golden form is capable of? Pffth, step aside and let real men handle this

That scene made me fangirl so loudly; Gohan-kun's face zoomed in as he glared back at Golden Freeza is my new background.

Absolutely!
I am currently working on making an avatar out of it!

[Michsi]

I have yet to see the episode, but I did want to find out first if my worst fears have come to pass, and I kinda expected it once they announced DBS ending in March. No way would anyone other than Goku have the final fight if this is Super's last arc.

And damn does 17's presence now rub me the wrong way, and I'm not even a Gohan fan.

[Black Hawk]

Absolutely!
I am currently working on making an avatar out of it!

Matching background/avatar; I think you are officially my best friend.

[Kataphrut]

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

[dbzfan7]

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

Exactly what a transformation/power up is all about.

More of why it feels like such a random handout. We know Ultra Instinct is the game changer. It was the form with the real build up. The form that had been foreshadowed for a long time. The form that clearly is set up as the only thing that can even contend with Jiren. Meanwhile this other form I don't think anyone buys for a second is going to be of much use against Jiren, once he actually takes things seriously. We already saw how badly he crushed Goku's SSBKK form before, so it's only a matter of time. It doesn't feel earned. It doesn't feel like the culmination of any sort of story arc. It is definitely not a game changer in any sense. It's just there. It has less impact than Super Saiyan Rage does. I have nothing against Vegeta. The previous arc would have been the better time to have Vegeta go through this form. This arc just didn't I don't feel the same.

[Whatever]

Gohan's confidence in him being able to beat the shit out of golden freeza says it all..
That turn he did reminded me of the time of his arrival when he first achieved the Ultimate power..
Such a fucking badass and this time, bonus points for him being able to handel his partners fuck up on the spot!
Seriously Freeza, that's all the power your so called golden form is capable of? Pffth, step aside and let real men handle this

>Says he will kill Buu and then Buu kills him
>Says he will knock Freeza out and Freeza knocks him out

Gohan is the Ultimate Irony.

[Ki Breaker]

Gohan's confidence in him being able to beat the shit out of golden freeza says it all..
That turn he did reminded me of the time of his arrival when he first achieved the Ultimate power..
Such a fucking badass and this time, bonus points for him being able to handel his partners fuck up on the spot!
Seriously Freeza, that's all the power your so called golden form is capable of? Pffth, step aside and let real men handle this

>Says he will kill Buu and then Buu kills him
>Says he will knock Freeza out and Freeza knocks him out

Gohan is the Ultimate Irony.

Says he will kill buu, Goten fucks up, kept fighting regardless..
Says he will knock out dyspo and fuck up Freeza if he tries something, knocks out dyspo and scares Freeza to submission..
Ultimate alpha is more like it..

[ShinTenshin]

Gohan got boosted to Blue level out of no where. You can't really complain.

Don't forget than Goku Blue VS Gohan seems to be Toei exclusive as that thing doesn't appear in the Manga.
So for Toriyama script it's most likely filler.
By the way, it was a very bad move because at the end, Toei was obligated to respect the power level from the author.
As a result, Gohan appear to be an ant against a restrained Toppo, to be honest he was really ridiculous.

The same restrained Toppo has a hard time against Goku or Vegeta Blue, so Ultimate is nothing but a trash compared to SS Blue.

Doesnt matter if its toei exclusive, this inst dbz. Anything that happens in the anime is canon

Yeah the fact that Toppo restrained is 100 times stronger than Gohan is canon.
The same Toppo that has some difficulty against Blue Power.
Gohan appear to be sooooooo weak against Toppo, what a shame for him !

[Kataphrut]

Exactly what a transformation/power up is all about.

More of why it feels like such a random handout. We know Ultra Instinct is the game changer. It was the form with the real build up. The form that had been foreshadowed for a long time. The form that clearly is set up as the only thing that can even contend with Jiren. Meanwhile this other form I don't think anyone buys for a second is going to be of much use against Jiren, once he actually takes things seriously. We already saw how badly he crushed Goku's SSBKK form before, so it's only a matter of time. It doesn't feel earned. It doesn't feel like the culmination of any sort of story arc. It is definitely not a game changer in any sense. It's just there. It has less impact than Super Saiyan Rage does. I have nothing against Vegeta. The previous arc would have been the better time to have Vegeta go through this form. This arc just didn't I don't feel the same.

Pretty much.

I will say one thing in it's favour, which is I like the idea of Vegeta no longer following in Goku's footsteps and the two of them diverging. This was just the wrong time and place for it. It could have come before, it could be saved for after (assuming the show comes back).

Honestly, this arc has made me realise more than anything that I'm tired of Vegeta. I don't care about him or his never-ending desire to surpass Goku anymore. There's interesting stuff there with him, his family and the U6 Saiyans, but the Goku rivalry is getting in the way of it. The problem is, it seems like making Super the "Goku and Vegeta show" comes direct from Toriyama's outlines. I mean, wasn't his pitch for the climax of Future Trunks arc just to have Goku and Vegeta vs Merged Zamasu? It was Toyotaro who came up with the idea of bringing in Vegito, and TOEI who said "hang on, isn't this meant to be Future Trunks' story? He should get the win." I don't who to blame more; TOEI for making us believe the other characters could be important right up until they can't get away with it anymore (see: episode 124 for Gohan, episode 67 for Trunks and basically everybody), or Tori/Toyo themselves for not letting go of Goku/Vegeta time in the first place.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

You... make an extremely valid point, the more I think of it. Well done.

Maybe Vegeta's Blue variant will be a game changer in terms of facing GoD Toppo? Because I think 17 and Freeza won't be able to beat him. But actually... no... never mind, I don't think so. Curious, what do you think of SS3 then? Does it fit under A or B?

[Ki Breaker]

Toppo looks scary, legit scary..
That's what an angry god of destruction should look like



Would probably have rocked this as an avatar if Gohan wasn't better in every department.. ever..

[dbzfan7]

Exactly what a transformation/power up is all about.

More of why it feels like such a random handout. We know Ultra Instinct is the game changer. It was the form with the real build up. The form that had been foreshadowed for a long time. The form that clearly is set up as the only thing that can even contend with Jiren. Meanwhile this other form I don't think anyone buys for a second is going to be of much use against Jiren, once he actually takes things seriously. We already saw how badly he crushed Goku's SSBKK form before, so it's only a matter of time. It doesn't feel earned. It doesn't feel like the culmination of any sort of story arc. It is definitely not a game changer in any sense. It's just there. It has less impact than Super Saiyan Rage does. I have nothing against Vegeta. The previous arc would have been the better time to have Vegeta go through this form. This arc just didn't I don't feel the same.

Pretty much.

I will say one thing in it's favour, which is I like the idea of Vegeta no longer following in Goku's footsteps and the two of them diverging. This was just the wrong time and place for it. It could have come before, it could be saved for after (assuming the show comes back).

Honestly, this arc has made me realise more than anything that I'm tired of Vegeta. I don't care about him or his never-ending desire to surpass Goku anymore. There's interesting stuff there with him, his family and the U6 Saiyans, but the Goku rivalry is getting in the way of it. The problem is, it seems like making Super the "Goku and Vegeta show" comes direct from Toriyama's outlines. I mean, wasn't his pitch for the climax of Future Trunks arc just to have Goku and Vegeta vs Merged Zamasu? It was Toyotaro who came up with the idea of bringing in Vegito, and TOEI who said "hang on, isn't this meant to be Future Trunks' story? He should get the win." I don't who to blame more; TOEI for making us believe the other characters could be important right up until they can't get away with it anymore (see: episode 124 for Gohan, episode 67 for Trunks and basically everybody), or Tori/Toyo themselves for not letting go of Goku/Vegeta time in the first place.

I really do enjoy that idea and concept and have wanted it since Battle of Gods. It's more interesting than to just see everyone...and by everyone I mean 2 people go through the same path. This form would have been better off in the next arc whenever it comes or the previous arc. Both times where it would feel more fitting for this evolution.

I think it might be the US arc that may be the culprit, since they took away interesting Vegeta who was fun to watch in the last arc, and made him not really have much of an arc here, and give him lines he would be saying in the Cell arc. I've enjoyed Vegeta more than Goku until this arc.

[Ki Breaker]

Don't fuck with us el grande padre, there is no next time, super's dead and so is your legitimacy

[Kataphrut]

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

You... make an extremely valid point, the more I think of it. Well done.

Maybe Vegeta's Blue variant will be a game changer in terms of facing GoD Toppo? Because I think 17 and Freeza won't be able to beat him. But actually... no... never mind, I don't think so. Curious, what do you think of SS3 then? Does it fit under A or B?

Honestly? Going by these standards, I have to say Super Saiyan 3 might be neither as well.

I mean, it's cool and iconic and what-not (execution can make up for a lot), but I think we can all agree it was kind of pointless and underdeveloped. The Buu saga was weird like that, it introduced a lot of new forms and transformations that didn't make much difference. In fact, the only ones I would say fit either A or B were Majin Vegeta and Vegito (if we count fusions as forms), as well as all Buu's transformations. Gotenks was a wash and a regression of Goten and Trunks as characters, same with Ultimate Gohan. And yeah, Super Saiyan 3 was just...kinda there.

In fact, I would put the return of Ultimate Gohan in Super over it's debut in Buu for both A and B. Because while I've been complaining about Gohan's treatment in Super now that he's out, the fact remains he's been handled a hell of a lot better in the ToP than he was in Buu, and regaining Ultimate was a big part of that.

[sintzu]

Don't fuck with us el grande padre, there is no next time, super's dead and so is your legitimacy

We will probably get a 3rd tournament between 7 and those 4 universes when it's back. If he says there'll be a next time then there'll be a next time.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

I think when we talk about what "deserves" a new transformation, we should consider more than just raw training time. Because training is one of those things that's used more for convenience than anything else in Dragon Ball, it's just an assumed state of the characters unless otherwise noted. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are established as training regularly, but we don't expect big powerups from them these days because they haven't been given a reason to develop as characters.

Transformations/powerups in Dragon Ball are ideally one of two things:

A) Culmination of a character arc.
B) A game-changer in the story.

At their best they can be both, that's why Gohan into SSJ2 against Cell was such an amazing moment. The problem with Vegeta's new form is that it fulfilled neither. It made a token effort to be "about" something, but Vegeta's had no growth throughout the Tournament and his relationship with Cabba was so under-developed that it fell flat. And it certainly isn't a game-changer. Ultra Instinct, aside from being well-executed in general, changed the entire dynamic of the tournament. It was immediately apparent just from watching that *this* was the only thing that can possibly beat Jiren. Super Saiyan Whoop-de-Blue doesn't for a second look like it can do that. Maybe it'll beat Toppo's new powerup, but that hasn't happened yet and isn't what triggered the transformation, so it'll basically just be coming up with a solution before the problem.

You... make an extremely valid point, the more I think of it. Well done.

Maybe Vegeta's Blue variant will be a game changer in terms of facing GoD Toppo? Because I think 17 and Freeza won't be able to beat him. But actually... no... never mind, I don't think so. Curious, what do you think of SS3 then? Does it fit under A or B?

Honestly? Going by these standards, I have to say Super Saiyan 3 might be neither as well.

I mean, it's cool and iconic and what-not (execution can make up for a lot), but I think we can all agree it was kind of pointless and underdeveloped. The Buu saga was weird like that, it introduced a lot of new forms and transformations that didn't make much difference. In fact, the only ones I would say fit either A or B were Majin Vegeta and Vegito (if we count fusions as forms), as well as all Buu's transformations. Gotenks was a wash and a regression of Goten and Trunks as characters, same with Ultimate Gohan. And yeah, Super Saiyan 3 was just...kinda there.

In fact, I would put the return of Ultimate Gohan in Super over it's debut in Buu for both A and B. Because while I've been complaining about Gohan's treatment in Super now that he's out, the fact remains he's been handled a hell of a lot better in the ToP than he was in Buu, and regaining Ultimate was a big part of that.

Yeah, I agree on that with SS3. Same with Ultimate Gohan, I thought he was done pretty fine in the ToP arc.