"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[kinisking]

I'm genuinely surprised many of you actually liked what they did with Merged Zamasu in the anime. Did you think it was cool and fitting that he summoned a giant bird? Did you like the scene where Black tore a hole in space and other Blacks came out? I mean, it's okay if you did, but I thought all of that was such a lame attempt at seeming badass and mysterious. Zamasu doesn't need to have a shining halo and crazy abilities to seem like the ultimate god.

The bird was great, black cutting a hole was great before the other blacks came out then it was wtf.

[HeroR]

What do you mean "so what"? You're getting defensive over nothing that's an insult. Try reading instead of taking everything as an insult. Read it slowly without your "MUST DEFEND TOEI AT ALL COSTS" blinders and think about what you're reading before you respond next time

It'd be like expecting SSG to make a return in the anime when it's clearly a Toyotaro creation

Defensive and must defend Toei huh?

I read what you wrote.

[VegettoEX]

Not an appropriate way to converse. Please course-correct.

[Xeztin]

I still prefer the manga overall. It's not that I want to. I'm completely open to the anime being great, and fully admit when I feel it has done something better than Toyotaro's print adaptation. However, even though it is flawed itself, I just feel like it's the stronger product in the grand scheme for the NEW material.

This post is from a completely different thread of a different subject, but the underlying premise is the same and it saves me from having to do some extra work.
[spoiler]

I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.

Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.

If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.

An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.

[/spoiler]
The anime is traditionally really good at getting you emotionally invested in the content they're trying to tell. But sometimes that works to their detriment. The choices they make to reach that emotional spot aren't narratively sound, and throw way too many rules, that the franchise used to establish it's world, under the bus. That's not exactly a bad thing in moderation. Picking a rule here and there, then shattering it to circumvent expectations can be a good writing tool. Toriyama used it pretty effectively through out his manga, but the anime version of Super basically did it at every chance they got during the Future Trunks Arc.

Toyotaro's manga at least feels more like a continuation of what has been the Dragon Ball world to me for so long. The anime, while extremely fun to watch with most episodes, just lacks the consistency to keep me fully invested. It feels like a lite version of a Gainax/Trigger series or something that just happens to use DB's characters. Where whatever the writers want to happen will.

That's not to say you can't prefer whatever version you like. This is just my opinion, and I'm in no way trying to force anyone to agree with me. Just enjoy what you want to enjoy!

I feel the same but I really wish they done the RoF arc in the manga. I feel like it's missing something even though the arc didn't have anything that would effect the story.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I feel the same but I really wish they done the RoF arc in the manga. I feel like it's missing something even though the arc didn't have anything that would effect the story.

That's definitely a weakness of the manga. BoG was just a summary of the arc, RoF didn't happen, and U6 was a mediocre abridgement at best (despite being better than the anime version, funnily enough). As much as I enjoy the manga, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to recommend with such a shaky start.

[Lord Frieza]

Sticking just to Zamasu/Black...

The reason I dont like t cubes is simple, its not really a move thats worthy of Ultimate Attack statues. Its a great move and I'd have no problem with it in and of its self but think of it this way, it something that even a normal kaioshin can pull off in a heart beat and summoning lots of them to throw at enemies something even normal Zamasu should be capable of doing given how much stronger he is the Shin. People mention Frieza throwing rocks around and this is true, but Frieza did it as a distraction for the real attack, his imprisonment ball.

The only great moment is his force grip.

I love Black's Scyth/Reality Slice/Reality Mist Clones and I really dont see them in the same vain as Trunks's bull###t for a reason beyond that. Black is corrupted kaioshin in the body of a saiyan that has tasted god power, he is something that have never existed before and likely never will again. Its only natural that Black would not be aware of the full extent of his power and abilities especially when he has not had to put them to the test before. Unlike many other more brash villains, Zamau/Black has a very big, long term goal with threats he cannot hope to match, the GoD. Trying to treat them as he would later Goku and Co would only have gotten him killed. Once they were out of the way Black was finally able to begin fully experimenting with his new body and powers also he was able to test them against foes who were not going to to curb stomp him. For me personally that more then allows some lean for Black pulling out some random stuff, especially when he himself even makes note of it. It nothing like Trunks learning the mafuba and genki sword just because although I will say there was some stuff that could have been used to build up Rage more effectively.

Now when it comes to his actual attacks in the anime, none has to like Fused Zamasu's, just as you have to like anyone's in the series. I for one love them and think they really due suit the character and his attitude.

Grotesque Zamasu, like everyone else when it was first shown I didn't like them malforming the perfect god......until I actually saw it in action and thought about. I've and others talked in great length about the many problems and potential problems the Black/Zamasu would have and how really something going wrong was more then justified to me. Also the way it brings out his true, hypocritical nature and the fact thats its a form of poetic justice is also really great to me. Also I'm a sucker for characters with giant, malformed arms. Yeah I love this form.

Edit: One thing I will hold against both is that Fused Zamasu didn't get a super, giant ki blade like he did in Heroes.

[LowRyder2005]

Really happy to see Zamas being outclassed in the manga, since that's the thing that would have made more sense from the very beginning. I'm also on the boat of those who found a lot of the anime's fluff rather random and/or poorly executed, so I welcome the changes Toyo made.

The only problem I can think of is that Vegito's appearance and fight felt way too condensed. Another twenty pages or something would have done wonders.

[Xeztin]

I feel the same but I really wish they done the RoF arc in the manga. I feel like it's missing something even though the arc didn't have anything that would effect the story.

That's definitely a weakness of the manga. BoG was just a summary of the arc, RoF didn't happen, and U6 was a mediocre abridgement at best (despite being better than the anime version, funnily enough). As much as I enjoy the manga, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to recommend with such a shaky start.

I couldn't expect anything more from the BoG arc honestly because it came from a hour long or so movie. I think Toei struggled to stretch it out in the anime which is why we had Goku and Beerus powering up for about 2-3 episodes. If Toyotaro would have just included the RoF 3 chapter special for the movie and done a 4th chapter to finish it for the manga. I'm just glad the BoG arc is there in some form but RoF being absent sucks for me to the point I even came up with my own panels and tried to finish it

http://imgbox.com/ZZh0OqU9

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I find it funny that people seem to be misremembering Zamasu's position in the anime when comparing. It's not like he was on equal footing with Vegetto there, quite the opposite, he kept using new techniques that he thought would surpass Vegetto, only to fail each time.

That's all, just thought I'd give those saying "Zamasu is outclassed in this version" a reminder.

[LowRyder2005]

I find it funny that people seem to be misremembering Zamasu's position in the anime when comparing. It's not like he was on equal footing with Vegetto there, quite the opposite, he kept using new techniques that he thought would surpass Vegetto, only to fail each time.

That's all, just thought I'd give those saying "Zamasu is outclassed in this version" a reminder.

Oh, I think I remember the anime quite well, thank you. He absolutely was intended to be on equal footing, lest you think that Vegito was taking it easy in the power clash. If anything, Vegito was meant to be portrayed as a better tactician and with a slight edge in power overall.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I find it funny that people seem to be misremembering Zamasu's position in the anime when comparing. It's not like he was on equal footing with Vegetto there, quite the opposite, he kept using new techniques that he thought would surpass Vegetto, only to fail each time.

That's all, just thought I'd give those saying "Zamasu is outclassed in this version" a reminder.

He absolutely was intended to be on equal footing, lest you think that Vegito was taking it easy in the clash. If anything, Vegito was meant to be a better tactician and with a slight edge.

I mean... you say that, but just watch Episode 66. Zamasu gets one substantial hit in, and breaks Vegetto's sword while Vegetto wasn't using it. The biggest cut in the episode was devoted to Vegetto beating the ever-loving hell out of Zamasu, and the entire formula of the episode is "Zamasu uses new and/or powerful technique, good guys (fairly easily) overcome it".

These aren't as different as you seem to think.

[Lord Frieza]

Really happy to see Zamas being outclassed in the manga, since that's the thing that would have made more sense.

For me personally I didn't like it because its the same, boring trope as every other Goku/Vegeta fusion. They fuse and the bad guy gets his ass soundly kicked until the fusion runs out, rinse and repeat that stale old trope from the Buu saga. It was a real breath of fresh air to finally have someone stand there ground and actually fight against Vegito/Gogeta.

I find it funny that people seem to be misremembering Zamasu's position in the anime when comparing. It's not like he was on equal footing with Vegetto there, quite the opposite, he kept using new techniques that he thought would surpass Vegetto, only to fail each time.

That's all, just thought I'd give those saying "Zamasu is outclassed in this version" a reminder.

Really? I dont see Zamasu being that out matched, yeas Vegito clearly has the edge but is nothing like the the fights Buu, Janemba and Omegea had to endure. On multiple occasions Vegito was forced to dodge and evade Zamasu attacks, Zamasu broke his hold on him and did overpower him briefly also Vegito backed off when Zamasu dissolved his Ki Blade. All that point to Zamasu being a much more credible threat to the Goku/Vegeta fusion then anyone else who's gone up against it. Hell the only reason his buff form was haveing trouble with Vegito was that his large size was slowing him down.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Really? I dont see Zamasu being that out matched, yeas Vegito clearly has the edge but is nothing like the the fights Buu, Janemba and Omegea had to endure. On multiple occasions Vegito was forced to dodge and evade Zamasu attacks, Zamasu broke his hold on him and did overpower him briefly also Vegito backed off when Zamasu dissolved his Ki Blade. All that point to Zamasu being a much more credible threat to the Goku/Vegeta fusion then anyone else who's gone up against it.

In case you missed it by mistake, I already typed a response to the other guy:

I mean... you say that, but just watch Episode 66. Zamasu gets one substantial hit in, and breaks Vegetto's sword while Vegetto wasn't using it. The biggest cut in the episode was devoted to Vegetto beating the ever-loving hell out of Zamasu, and the entire formula of the episode is "Zamasu uses new and/or powerful technique, good guys (fairly easily) overcome it".

These aren't as different as you seem to think.

I think that covers it pretty well.

Hell the only reason his buff form was haveing trouble with Vegito was that his large size was slowing him down.

Pure speculation. Not really interested in discussing it because it doesn't affect my point, but it's important to separate fan ideas with the raw information available.

[Lord Frieza]

Really? I dont see Zamasu being that out matched, yeas Vegito clearly has the edge but is nothing like the the fights Buu, Janemba and Omegea had to endure. On multiple occasions Vegito was forced to dodge and evade Zamasu attacks, Zamasu broke his hold on him and did overpower him briefly also Vegito backed off when Zamasu dissolved his Ki Blade. All that point to Zamasu being a much more credible threat to the Goku/Vegeta fusion then anyone else who's gone up against it.

In case you missed it by mistake, I already typed a response to the other guy:

I mean... you say that, but just watch Episode 66. Zamasu gets one substantial hit in, and breaks Vegetto's sword while Vegetto wasn't using it. The biggest cut in the episode was devoted to Vegetto beating the ever-loving hell out of Zamasu, and the entire formula of the episode is "Zamasu uses new and/or powerful technique, good guys (fairly easily) overcome it".

These aren't as different as you seem to think.

Hell the only reason his buff form was haveing trouble with Vegito was that his large size was slowing him down.

Pure speculation. Not really interested in discussing it because it doesn't affect my point, but it's important to separate fan ideas with the raw information available.

Ok what new techqunics did Zamasu use? Becuase all he did use was raw power aside from his arm and powering up. Also dose Vegito's battle damage, the first battle damge any Goku/Vegeta fusion has ever suffered, not add further evidence to the point when NO other character has done so befor?

and its not pure speculation when Vegito himself said it himself...

"Whats wrong? Cant that body seeping with all your rage keeps up with my speed?"

Yeah total fan speculational with no evidence to back it up.

[LowRyder2005]

I find it funny that people seem to be misremembering Zamasu's position in the anime when comparing. It's not like he was on equal footing with Vegetto there, quite the opposite, he kept using new techniques that he thought would surpass Vegetto, only to fail each time.

That's all, just thought I'd give those saying "Zamasu is outclassed in this version" a reminder.

He absolutely was intended to be on equal footing, lest you think that Vegito was taking it easy in the clash. If anything, Vegito was meant to be a better tactician and with a slight edge.

I mean... you say that, but watch the actual episode. Zamasu gets one substantial hit in, and breaks Vegetto's sword while Vegetto wasn't using it. The biggest cut in the episode was devoted to Vegetto beating the ever-loving hell out of Zamasu, and the entire formula of the episode is "Zamasu uses new and/or powerful technique, good guys (fairly easily) overcome it".

These aren't as different as you seem to think.

I'm rather convinced that they are. I'm farily surprised of such an interpretation, in fact. Zamas doesn't even get one hit on Vegito in the manga, and Vegito clearly appears to be taking it somewhat easy (or, let's just say, he's very clearly not struggling).

I don't think I need to add that anime Vegito is throwing kiais like half of the time of his 4-minute appearance, is bruised and in the couple of power struggles that take place in episode 66 - Zamas either defeats him or holds his own.
I don't think that the two portrayals are meant to be even remotely comparable in how the enemy is being a threat to Vegito's own might, honestly. One is clearly reminiscent of Vegito vs. Buuhan, the other feels like Goku vs. 100% Freeza in the anime.

[Freeza9000]

I'm genuinely surprised many of you actually liked what they did with Merged Zamasu in the anime. Did you think it was cool and fitting that he summoned a giant bird? Did you like the scene where Black tore a hole in space and other Blacks came out? I mean, it's okay if you did, but I thought all of that was such a lame attempt at seeming badass and mysterious. Zamasu doesn't need to have a shining halo and crazy abilities to seem like the ultimate god.

At least the anime tried to give him unique abilities that highlights his godly presence and standing. I'd say it makes him all the more intimidating than the manga version where all he uses are recycled attacks from previous other characters from the Z.

[Chuquita]

I really liked how the anime did attacks for Merged Zamasu and Gokû Black. Yes they were very jrpg boss, but I've barely played any jrpgs so all of it was very fresh for me to watch. I hadn't seen anything like it in Dragon Ball.

Manga Merged Zamasu is more like a cover album since it's all stuff we've seen used by other characters before. His only new thing in the manga was that Star Wars-like thing where he levitated Gokû and Vegeta off the ground and tried to choke them.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I'm genuinely surprised many of you actually liked what they did with Merged Zamasu in the anime. Did you think it was cool and fitting that he summoned a giant bird? Did you like the scene where Black tore a hole in space and other Blacks came out? I mean, it's okay if you did, but I thought all of that was such a lame attempt at seeming badass and mysterious. Zamasu doesn't need to have a shining halo and crazy abilities to seem like the ultimate god.

The portrayal of Merged Zamasu in the anime was perfect. #65 was what you'd expect from a fusion of the Black and Zamasu the anime presented, him standing their just unleashing from his Wall of Light without moving was great and then #66 seeing him go completely mad when things did not go the way he intended. The explored the two sides of Zamasu pretty well and again the idea of the half is body being corrupt was perfect epitome of his character.

[Ki Breaker]

I really liked how the anime did attacks for Merged Zamasu and Gokû Black. Yes they were very jrpg boss, but I've barely played any jrpgs so all of it was very fresh for me to watch. I hadn't seen anything like it in Dragon Ball.

Manga Merged Zamasu is more like a cover album since it's all stuff we've seen used by other characters before.

I gotta agree, as much as I like the manga the attacks aren't packing that big of a pinch, especially the cube throw

[Duo]

I wonder if Toyotaro ever played Budokai 3 for PS2. Kaioshin had an attack where he threw Katchin offensively.