"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

A new soul? And where was that stated? Ok, my explanation for the different Zenkai is headcanon, but yours is too.

It's not only the hair, it's also the aura, it's totally different. As there are differences in the hair and in the aura, I was considering that other differences were for the same reason of being a god in a saiyans body too, but I can't say it as a definitive. It's still the best theory I see, better than being a new soul. Neither the body nor the soul are new, in fact, it's much older. Nah, I don't see this.

But, as I said, the rose has been shown so little, we just don't know if it has the same flaws or not. I didn't assure it didn't, but I wouldn't consider a problem if it was the case. Not gonna raise my plothole finger for that, as other differences have been seen without any problem.

In any case, I've always said that it makes little sense to me that Black has the rose form. If it was for me, he would have had the exact same transformations, the blue instead the rose and all the same advantages and flaws. But, Toriyama spoke, that's divine word.

It was stated in Chapter 20 around pages 16 when Black talked about the more his cell are damage and recover, the more it becomes his own, which is how he gets stronger. So it isn't headcanon, it's in the manga.

Future Zamasu said that when a deity surpasses Super Saiyan God they gain pink hair instead of blue. So Super Saiyan Rose is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan except the hair color is different. So it is odd that Super Saiyan Rose doesn't have the same problems as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since it's the same form and neither Zamasu or Black state that it's more stable because Black is a deity.

[Basako]

A new soul? And where was that stated? Ok, my explanation for the different Zenkai is headcanon, but yours is too.

It's not only the hair, it's also the aura, it's totally different. As there are differences in the hair and in the aura, I was considering that other differences were for the same reason of being a god in a saiyans body too, but I can't say it as a definitive. It's still the best theory I see, better than being a new soul. Neither the body nor the soul are new, in fact, it's much older. Nah, I don't see this.

But, as I said, the rose has been shown so little, we just don't know if it has the same flaws or not. I didn't assure it didn't, but I wouldn't consider a problem if it was the case. Not gonna raise my plothole finger for that, as other differences have been seen without any problem.

In any case, I've always said that it makes little sense to me that Black has the rose form. If it was for me, he would have had the exact same transformations, the blue instead the rose and all the same advantages and flaws. But, Toriyama spoke, that's divine word.

It was stated in Chapter 20 around pages 16 when Black talked about the more his cell are damage and recover, the more it becomes his own, which is how he gets stronger. So it isn't headcanon, it's in the manga.

Future Zamasu said that when a deity surpasses Super Saiyan God they gain pink hair instead of blue. So Super Saiyan Rose is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan except the hair color is different. So it is odd that Super Saiyan Rose doesn't have the same problems as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since it's the same form and neither Zamasu or Black state that it's more stable because Black is a deity.

No man, he doesn't say why his Zenkais are better than the ones of the normal saiyans, he just says every time he has a Zenkai his divine soul and saiyan body become more one thing. If anything, there is a reference about his godly soul in a saiyan body, which was my point. There is nothing about having better Zenkais because it's a new soul in the body, that's your headcanon.

SSR is what a god in the body of a saiyan gets when he goes SSGSS. SSR and SSB aren't the same form, both are SSGSS, but they are different. The hair colour is different and the aura is different too. If there are those difference, I don't think it's out of logic to think that there could be more too. If it was the same, he would go blue with the same magma type aura. It's a fact that a god in a saiyan body produces differences, which could explain the different Zenkai and others, although those are not stated of confirmed.

[HeroR]

No man, he doesn't say why his Zenkais are better than the ones of the normal saiyans, he just says every time he has a Zenkai his divine soul and saiyan body become more one thing. If anything, there is a reference about his godly soul in a saiyan body, which was my point. There is nothing about having better Zenkais because it's a new soul in the body, that's your headcanon.

SSR is what a god in the body of a saiyan gets when he goes SSGSS. SSR and SSB aren't the same form, both are SSGSS, but they are different. The hair colour is different and the aura is different too. If there are those difference, I don't think it's out of logic to think that there could be more too. If it was the same, he would go blue with the same magma type aura. It's a fact that a god in a saiyan body produces differences, which could explain the different Zenkai and others, although those are not stated of confirmed.

He's "Zenkais" are not better. He still gets "Zenkais" because he's a new soul in Goku's body, while Goku and Vegeta stopped getting them. And he did explain why he still gets them. It's right in Chapter 20. So, not my headcanon.

They're the same form. The manga called them the same form except Black gains pink hair instead of blue because he's a god in a Saiyan's body that surpassed Super Saiyan God. Again, all in Chapter 20.

[Basako]

No man, he doesn't say why his Zenkais are better than the ones of the normal saiyans, he just says every time he has a Zenkai his divine soul and saiyan body become more one thing. If anything, there is a reference about his godly soul in a saiyan body, which was my point. There is nothing about having better Zenkais because it's a new soul in the body, that's your headcanon.

SSR is what a god in the body of a saiyan gets when he goes SSGSS. SSR and SSB aren't the same form, both are SSGSS, but they are different. The hair colour is different and the aura is different too. If there are those difference, I don't think it's out of logic to think that there could be more too. If it was the same, he would go blue with the same magma type aura. It's a fact that a god in a saiyan body produces differences, which could explain the different Zenkai and others, although those are not stated of confirmed.

He's "Zenkais" are not better. He still gets "Zenkais" because he's a new soul in Goku's body, while Goku and Vegeta stopped getting them. And he did explain why he still gets them. It's right in Chapter 20. So, not my headcanon.

They're the same form. The manga called them the same form except Black gains pink hair instead of blue because he's a god in a Saiyan's body that surpassed Super Saiyan God. Again, all in Chapter 20.

The whole first paragraph is your headcanon, there's nothing that says any of that neither in chapter 20 nor ever before. Sorry, but between yours and mine, I stick with mine.

They are equivalent forms, both SSGSS, but they are different, at least in the hair colour and the aura, maybe more things that we don't know. It's a god in a saiyans body, that's what it makes it different, otherwise it would be blue with the lava type aura.

[HeroR]

The whole first paragraph is your headcanon, there's nothing that says any of that neither in chapter 20 nor ever before. Sorry, but between yours and mine, I stick with mine.

They are equivalent forms, both SSGSS, but they are different, at least in the hair colour and the aura, maybe more things that we don't know. It's a god in a saiyans body, that's what it makes it different, otherwise it would be blue with the lava type aura.

Again, it isn't headcanon since it is stated in the manga. To quote:

Mai: That's right! All we gotta do is use a Senzu to help him recover every time he goes down!

*Vegeta eats a Senzu, charges back into battle, and get his ass kicked,

Mai: No way!

Trunks: It's probably no longer possible for him and Goku to get power up from that ability. There's a good chance that for the two of them have already reached their limit.

Black: The more these damaged cells regenerate, the more they become my own to control. The soul of a god and the body of a Saiyan-- They are increasingly becoming one and the same.

So Goku and Vegeta don't get "Zenkais" anymore. Black does because the "soul of a god and the body of a Saiyan" allows him to get "Zenkais". Therefore, Black's "Zenkais" are not better. He just gets them while Goku and Vegeta don't.

The only different noted in the manga is the hair color. Other than that, it's the same form. The manga never stated that there was more to it.

[Basako]

The whole first paragraph is your headcanon, there's nothing that says any of that neither in chapter 20 nor ever before. Sorry, but between yours and mine, I stick with mine.

They are equivalent forms, both SSGSS, but they are different, at least in the hair colour and the aura, maybe more things that we don't know. It's a god in a saiyans body, that's what it makes it different, otherwise it would be blue with the lava type aura.

Again, it isn't headcanon since it is stated in the manga. To quote:

Mai: That's right! All we gotta do is use a Senzu to help him recover every time he goes down!

*Vegeta eats a Senzu, charges back into battle, and get his ass kicked,

Mai: No way!

Trunks: It's probably no longer possible for him and Goku to get power up from that ability. There's a good chance that for the two of them have already reached their limit.

Black: The more these damaged cells regenerate, the more they become my own to control. The soul of a god and the body of a Saiyan-- They are increasingly becoming one and the same.

So Goku and Vegeta don't get "Zenkais" anymore. Black does because the "soul of a god and the body of a Saiyan" allows him to get "Zenkais". Therefore, Black's "Zenkais" are not better. He just gets them while Goku and Vegeta don't.

The only different noted in the manga is the hair color. Other than that, it's the same form. The manga never stated that there was more to it.

Ok, the part where Trunks say Goku and Vegeta have reached their limits with Zenkais is something, so not all your paragraph was headcanon. But there's nothing there stating why Black has better Zenkais or his limit is higher. You say it's because it's a new soul in the body, I say it's because it's a god's soul in it, none of them are stated, so both are valid theories until debunked. I still prefer mine, as a god in a saiyans body produces differences like the colour of the hair and the aura, it seems reasonable to me that there could be other differences, for example the way the Zenkais work on him.

Your last paragraph is erroneous too, the manga has shown at least two differences, one is the hair, the other is the texture of the aura.

[Noah]

My God. Just read the darn manga before you critique it.

1. Goku didn't have much energy left by the time he and Vegeta fused.

2. This technique is dangerous and unmastered. It's literally only being used because he has exhausted all other options.

3. It's NOT an asspull. An asspull, by definition, has no basis in anything, no foreshadowing, no context and makes no sense. That is not this. It was established a long ass time ago that SSB burns up a lot of energy. It was established that both Goku and Vegeta knew its weakness. It was established that Vegeta found an answer to fix its weakness; obviously that meant Goku had his own answer, or the same answer because both of them have always been able to figure out how techniques work.

Come on, dude.

1. Oh sure, Goku didn't have any energy left but decided to play turns with Vegeta when fighting against Merged Zamasu, genius.

2. Oh yeah just like Kaioken that people criticized a lot in the anime for the same reasons, but with the difference the audience knew Goku had this trump card in this arc and could use it when it needed.

3. It is an asspull cause the concept of mastering SSJB was introduced in this chapter only. Vegeta trained with Goku for 3 years in the RoSaT and both couldn't solve this issue, Vegeta trained a couple of months in this arc at the same place and learned a trick to solve part of the problem and Toyotaro wants us to believe that Goku always had that having trained less than Vegeta, just because he's a fanboy? Oh, bollocks

[Robo4900]

So I just read all the free chapters available on Viz's site.

I must say, I'm loving it. So, if you'll give me a moment, I'd like to gush about how awesome it is. The anime version of the Black arc had loads of points that really annoy me, and seem to just come out of no-where, with no foreshadowing or explanation. The manga is circumventing all of that, and in general, I think it's a much better telling of the story.
The big question now is, how will it handle the ending? In my opinion, the ending turned the Black arc from flawed but great, to utter crap in the anime. If the manga can fix this, like it's done with a lot of things I didn't like about this arc, I will be very happy.

Black arc-specific stuff aside, I really love that the SSG form gets used here, that SSB actually has drawbacks and makes sense as a form(In the anime, all I can gather is that it's SSG, but blue, and without the younger appearance...), and that they fixed the screwy setup of the Magetta fight from the U6 tournament. And the fights are faster, and more intense; IMO, the Super anime fights often get tiring after a while, even moreso than in Z or GT. The U6 tournament actually did pretty well in the anime, with all the cool new fighters coming in and showing off interesting techniques and all, but it's so much better in the manga.

So, while I am liking the current arc of the anime, and it along with the fillers just before it have improved my feelings on the Super anime, I am really loving the manga. It's just so much better in my opinion.

The only drawback of the manga is that there's no Battle Of Gods or Resurrection F manga to my knowledge, so the story isn't quite complete on its own.
(Well, that and the fact it's in black and white. Makes some of the forms a little hard to keep track of at times...)

[HeroR]

Ok, the part where Trunks say Goku and Vegeta have reached their limits with Zenkais is something, so not all your paragraph was headcanon. But there's nothing there stating why Black has better Zenkais or his limit is higher. You say it's because it's a new soul in the body, I say it's because it's a god's soul in it, none of them are stated, so both are valid theories until debunked. I still prefer mine, as a god in a saiyans body produces differences like the colour of the hair and the aura, it seems reasonable to me that there could be other differences, for example the way the Zenkais work on him.

Your last paragraph is erroneous too, the manga has shown at least two differences, one is the hair, the other is the texture of the aura.

I repeat, Black's 'Zenkais' are not better. He simply still gets them. 'Zenkais' boosts are random by nature since you had Vegeta got from 18,000 to 24,000 from his battle on Earth to Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million between arriving on Namek and getting out of the healing chamber.

Aura doesn't really mean anything since it's connected to the hair change and the texture of the aura can just be a style choice like Black being slimmer than Goku in the anime. In universe, the only change of not was Black's hair color. Other than that, Zamasu basically called Rose Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[LowRyder2005]

@Noah: Chiming in just to reiterate what others have already said. TKA already gave you many answers; the thread has the rest. It literally just takes going back a few pages. Goku cannot use the "mastered" Super Saiyan Blue unless he's at full power, and after having exhausted his energy for the Mafuuba it was yet another time he could not go back to Blue without being hindered. Trunks addresses the fact as well for the reader. He fights the fused Zamas afterwards and also considers it's about time to use the Senzu to get his stamina back, which would've led to the current chapter (bypassing then entirety of chapter 23, in short). Then Vegeta makes up his mind about Fusion and it becomes their best shot.

I have to add this, though: it is a little incredible, at this point, that half a dozen people are basically only summarizing the events over and over again. I mean, I understand anyone would be surprised, but it only took one read of the older chapters for me to see that everything more or less fell reasonably in line. Now, it's not like the manga has some stellar or revolutionary writing, in my opinion, but I also feel like it really doesn't take much effort to understand that its setups and payoffs are intended and for the most part thoroughly justified.

That being clarified, Goku and Vegeta are probably "silly" for not fighting together to maximize their chances of victory - since the very first Vegeta vs. Black fight, I guess? - but no more silly than all the other times they have favored pride over sensible strategies (something that harkens way back to the Cell arc). This is supposed to be them acting faithfully to their original characters and it's not like it goes exactly undetected by others as well. And also...

It is an asspull cause the concept of mastering SSJB was introduced in this chapter only.

I hope you can see by yourself that this blunt analogy of "something new is introduced (to surprise the reader) = asspull" is a little off.

[Basako]

Ok, the part where Trunks say Goku and Vegeta have reached their limits with Zenkais is something, so not all your paragraph was headcanon. But there's nothing there stating why Black has better Zenkais or his limit is higher. You say it's because it's a new soul in the body, I say it's because it's a god's soul in it, none of them are stated, so both are valid theories until debunked. I still prefer mine, as a god in a saiyans body produces differences like the colour of the hair and the aura, it seems reasonable to me that there could be other differences, for example the way the Zenkais work on him.

Your last paragraph is erroneous too, the manga has shown at least two differences, one is the hair, the other is the texture of the aura.

I repeat, Black's 'Zenkais' are not better. He simply still gets them. 'Zenkais' boosts are random by nature since you had Vegeta got from 18,000 to 24,000 from his battle on Earth to Goku going from 90,000 to 3 million between arriving on Namek and getting out of the healing chamber.

Aura doesn't really mean anything since it's connected to the hair change and the texture of the aura can just be a style choice like Black being slimmer than Goku in the anime. In universe, the only change of not was Black's hair color. Other than that, Zamasu basically called Rose Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Repeat all you want. Better is the perfect term to describe Black's Zenkais in relation to all the others that we have seen in all DB history with any saiyan, so I'll keep saying it because it's correct. Black's highest limit seem to be higher than Goku's too, so there is a difference anyway, very likely produced for being a god in a saiyans body.

Stylistic choices don't mean anything in universe. In universe, Black's auras texture is different from the SSB. If was like the lava type aura, I would say it's the same, but it's not. So you are wrong again, the hair is not the only difference, at least the aura is different too.

If you want me to drop a theory, don't just present another one. Well, I would if I thought yours is better, but I don't. The thing is, you said that what I said about Blacks Zenkais been better because he is a god in a body of a saiyan may have not been stated, but what you said about him being in a new body being the reason for it hasn't been either, so I'll stick with mine.

[Noah]

That being said, Goku and Vegeta are probably "silly" for not fighting together to maximize their chances of victory - since the very first Vegeta vs. Black fight, I guess? - but no more silly than all the other times they have favored pride over sensible strategies (something that harkens way back to the Cell arc). This is supposed to be them acting faithfully to their original characters and it's not like it goes exactly undetected by others as well. And also...

You can just quote me to make it easier to answer you, mate.

Sorry I highly disagree on the part "acting faithfully to their original characters" cause we clearly see a regression here while in the anime was a progression, they should have realized long ago that fighting together is the best option in many ocasions: against Kid Boo was passable, Golden Freeza was a miss cause it resulted in the destruction of Earth, in the anime they did fight together seeing that Merged Zamasu could not be stopped one-on-one. I don't see why the manga wanted to play that route again, shouldn't these characters get any development? It's way beyond silly and undermines the reveal of Goku's trump card.

I hope you can see by yourself that the logic of "something new is introduced (to surprise the reader) = asspull" is a little off.

Well I played with the logic of TKA who said is not an asspull cause it was foreshadowed before and it was not.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The only drawback of the manga is that there's no Battle Of Gods or Resurrection F manga to my knowledge, so the story isn't quite complete on its own.

The first 4 chapters of the DBS manga are a someone interesting, if rushed take of BoG. RoF is the only thing that was skipped. However, RoF is referenced as having been skipped in Chapter 5, so we know that some version of it did happen. I wholeheartedly recommend you buy the first collected volume as well. Those first chapters aren't put together the best (it started out as nothing more than an anime spoiler, after all), but the art looks fantastic on paper and there are several fun extra bits included, including the short story of how Kaio got his planet back

[Zephyr]

The only drawback of the manga is that there's no Battle Of Gods or Resurrection F manga to my knowledge, so the story isn't quite complete on its own.

You have two options there:
1. You could read the very abridged retelling of Battle of Gods (was on Viz's website, but has been taken off since that's now been released physically in the US) and Toyotaro's incomplete promotional manga for Revival of F (I'm not sure if that's been released in English anywhere). The problem is that even then, the story's still not complete.

2. You could treat the film versions as going along with the manga, and simply treat Toyotaro's Battle of Gods as an extended 'recap' of the film to more set the stage for the Champa arc (there's a lot of foreshadowing throughout, that wasn't in the film). Under that view, the manga is a followup to the films. Likewise under that view, there's some specific in-universe minutia that doesn't completely jive, but that's not a big deal for me personally and essentially entails the lesser of all available evils.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The only drawback of the manga is that there's no Battle Of Gods or Resurrection F manga to my knowledge, so the story isn't quite complete on its own.

You have two options there:
1. You could read the very abridged retelling of Battle of Gods (was on Viz's website, but has been taken off since that's now been released physically in the US) and Toyotaro's incomplete promotional manga for Revival of F (I'm not sure if that's been released in English anywhere). The problem is that even then, the story's still not complete.

2. You could treat the film versions as going along with the manga, and simply treat Toyotaro's Battle of Gods as an extended 'recap' of the film to more set the stage for the Champa arc (there's a lot of foreshadowing throughout, that wasn't in the film). Under that view, the manga is a followup to the films. Likewise under that view, there's some specific in-universe minutia that doesn't completely jive, but that's not a big deal for me personally and essentially entails the lesser of all available evils.

I wouldn't say it's even that complicated. While Toyotaro's BoG doesn't give you a satisfying package in its own right, it does enough for you to know what's going on. The only reason it needs to be there are for the several changes it makes, notably the Champa/Kaioshin material, and retrospectively, the fact that Goku doesn't retain the godly power after the transformation wears off. As for RoF, it's such an inconsequential non-progression that all you even need to know is that some vague version of those events happened, and you can move on unimpeded.

[batistabus]

Goku and Vegeta take turns fighting for selfish reasons, but it's actually not as stupid as you might think. In the situation where one is fighting and one is watching, the fighter tries out certain tactics while the spectator gets a chance to analyze the opponent. Based on the fact that they have no clue how to beat his immortality gimmick, having someone analyze the opponent from an outside perspective wouldn't be a bad idea. Athletes and eSports gamers do this all the time.

Even if we as readers know that they don't stand a chance, Goku and Vegeta don't seem to see it that way. They're not getting 1-hit-KO'd, Goku was able to blast a hole through Zamasu, and they still have a Senzu left for whoever has the best shot (which is what it comes down to after Vegetto fails). It's not as if they're willing to give up and die honorably in battle at this point. Even in the fight against Majin Boo, they refused to fuse because they believed that the battle could still be won another way. Knowing what we know now, Goku still had the perfected SSB up his sleeve. If they didn't have a Senzu or anything else to work with, then I might be a little more sympathetic to the backlash.

Getting back to my point...in the Golden Freeza fight, Vegeta notices that Freeza's power is starting to fade by watching the fight (of course Goku does too, but still). We'll never get a Dragon Ball battle analysis as explicit or in-depth as anything from, say, Hunter x Hunter, but having that element adds to the battle in a small way.

[Zephyr]

I wouldn't say it's even that complicated. While Toyotaro's BoG doesn't give you a satisfying package in its own right, it does enough for you to know what's going on. The only reason it needs to be there are for the several changes it makes, notably the Champa/Kaioshin material, and retrospectively, the fact that Goku doesn't retain the godly power after the transformation wears off. As for RoF, it's such an inconsequential non-progression that all you even need to know is that some vague version of those events happened, and you can move on unimpeded.

Yeah, it's nothing too crazy. There are also discrepancies regarding Beerus remembering "Super Saiyan God" and the location of Bulma's birthday party, but again, that's nothing serious, unless you're excessively hung up on the pedantic in-universe minutia. Toyo's BoG arc really just feels like an extended prologue to the Champa material, rather than an actual full representation of what happens in Age 778. The lack of a RoF arc in the Super manga (discounting the RoF promotional manga here) doesn't really do any damage, since the BoG recap serves the 'prologue' function just fin on its own.

Regarding RoF, the film, I think it's now been given more of a reason for inclusion, based at the very least on Freeza's eventual recruitment for the ToP.

[Robo4900]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the super-rushed recap of BoG at the beginning. I think I read that a while ago along with some of the early U6 chapters, but I didn't have the time to read the rest until now.

Again, I read the free chapters that are currently up. So it starts a few chapters into the U6 arc, and extends all the way up to the most recent chapter.

Isn't Toyotaro's RoF promo thing incomplete? I remember hearing it only goes up to a little before the fight with Freeza.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Isn't Toyotaro's RoF promo thing incomplete? I remember hearing it only goes up to a little before the fight with Freeza.

It stopped before the big transformations, but I wouldn't lean on it too heavily regardless. It's basically just the RoF movie retold in comic form.

[Nejishiki]

Isn't Toyotaro's RoF promo thing incomplete? I remember hearing it only goes up to a little before the fight with Freeza.

The promotional preview for Resurrection F is complete. It ends by informing the reader to catch the story's conclusion at the theater.