"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Totamo]

Toppo is a parody on super sentai, remove that and he is not the same. Its like saying the Ginyu force are the same without their dancing and posing.


The parody is ruined.

Yeah, and who decided that? He's not part of the Ginyu Force.

Y......You can't be serious.

[Saiyan007]

I'd wait until translations are out before I decide if the manga's character problem is still prevalent

Translations are out. He's just like anime Toppo except he doesn't pose and scream Justice. He also doesn't call Son Goku a villain

can you pm the translation?

[HeroR]

No, no it wouldn't. Especially since he even wants Vegeta to train with him. Vegeta is still Goku's rival and Goku still expects Vegeta to keep up with/try to top him. That's their relationship. Goku even tries to get Vegeta to train with him with Whis all the time

That’s called a sparring partner, not a rival, which is what Vegeta basically is in Super. He had a similar relationship with Krillin in the original Dragon Ball and he never really saw Krillin as a rival, altogether Krillin had a rivalry with Goku.

Heck, in the anime he was willing to pay Hit to kill him so Hit would go all out, which is what a rivalry usually looks like. Not to mention how he stalks Toppo and Jiren.

Yes but this is not the anime. Vegeta is Goku's rival in the sense that they both compete for the same objective: being the strongest warrior and the only one in the whole of universe 7 that could rival each other in battle.


Thats why Tien and Piccolo aren't mentioned. They have only ever rivaled Goku twice and are no longer in the race.

Piccole rivaled Goku at the end of Dragon Ball, the beginning of Z, and surpassed him briefly after reuniting with Kami.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I'm hoping Toyotaro decides against the kaio-ken, or Goku attempts to use it, and it fails. In-universe, it makes sense that it's too dangerous to attempt (and there hadn't been any attempt with the standard super saiyan forms), and if Goku tries it in a moment with the universe + afterlife on the line, I think it be more impactful to have it destroy his body/deplete his stamina. I also don't like that it creates an insurmountable gap between Goku and Vegeta (and I'm actually hoping that the anime introducing UI in a way writes that gap out of the series), and doing so what greatly diminish my interest in the series.

That said, Toei has animated blue + kaioken absolutely beautifully. So, if we get to see it in manga form, presumably with a color cover, I'm sure it would look outstanding as well.

People like competition between Goku and Vegeta. They find it entertaining, including myself.

Agreed. Their status as students of Whis who are on the same level and trying to outdo one another and chase Beerus is my favorite macro plot in Super. Part of why I liked the Buu Saga the least is because the Goku/Vegeta rivalry was written out (and it seemed contrived).

Goku hasn’t cared about outdoing Vegeta since the Freeza Saga. The rivalry had been one-sided since Goku doesn’t care. Goku is chasing Beerus and other rivals while Vegeta is stuck on Goku, which hinders him according to Whis.

It's not a competition. Vegeta is the only one who gives a shit about their power gap.

That's not true at all. Goku gets annoyed when Vegeta gets special training without him

Thst would annoy him if that was anyone, including Gohan, since he wants special training too.

It's not just about special training.

When Goku learned that Vegeta was training six months with Whis, he became completely impatient.

At the beginning of the Future Trunks Saga, Goku also goes to the planet of Beerus immediately after learning that Vegeta is there. And after arriving, still complains with him.

Goku also does not want to be behind Vegeta.

And independent of this rivalry, it is much more interesting to have Goku and Vegeta on the same level.

In the anime, an abyss of power was created with the Kaioken, not only between Goku and Vegeta, but between Goku and all the other Z Fighters

[Simere]

In the anime, an abyss of power was created with the Kaioken, not only between Goku and Vegeta, but between Goku and all the other Z Fighters

Yeah, if it weren't for the Kaio-ken the "Z Fighters" would be right on his tail.

[Totamo]

That’s called a sparring partner, not a rival, which is what Vegeta basically is in Super. He had a similar relationship with Krillin in the original Dragon Ball and he never really saw Krillin as a rival, altogether Krillin had a rivalry with Goku.

Heck, in the anime he was willing to pay Hit to kill him so Hit would go all out, which is what a rivalry usually looks like. Not to mention how he stalks Toppo and Jiren.

Yes but this is not the anime. Vegeta is Goku's rival in the sense that they both compete for the same objective: being the strongest warrior and the only one in the whole of universe 7 that could rival each other in battle.


Thats why Tien and Piccolo aren't mentioned. They have only ever rivaled Goku twice and are no longer in the race.

Piccole rivaled Goku at the end of Dragon Ball, the beginning of Z, and surpassed him briefly after reuniting with Kami.

Goku was in a coma how does that count?

[Analytical Delusion]

Perhaps he doesn't view Goku as somebody he's chasing, but he views him as somebody on the same level:

Android Saga - Goku viewed Vegeta as an equal when he came up with the idea to go in the RoSaT originally
Post-BoG/Pre-RoF - Goku didn't want Vegeta to get ahead of him, panicked when he found out Vegeta had been training with Whis.
RoF - Goku had no problem with Vegeta fighting Freeza, and only intervened after the rewind when he had knowledge of Freeza's intent to blow up the planet.
Pre-U6 - Goku and Vegeta literally spend three years in the RoSaT getting to the same level, and reaching their limits.
U6 Tournament (manga version) - Goku when knocked out by Frost (before he realized he had been cheated) figured Vegeta had a chance to win. Also, he didn't view Vegeta's loss to Hit as something due to the difference in ability, but because Vegeta made a tactical error.
Zamasu/Black arc (manga version) - The two are presented on the same level, until Goku achieves Mastered Blue.
Pre-Universe Survival - Vegeta also achieves Mastered Blue, and Goku doesn't appear to have any other form (so else he would've used something against Toppo).

Goku probably doesn't view Vegeta as a direct rival (while on the other hand, Vegeta views him as one), but in the manga continuity, I think he feels they're on the same plane, chasing Beerus. Introducing kaio-ken shelves Vegeta as a fighter against major threats permanently, until it's written out (which again, I'm hoping UI does; even if Vegeta doesn't achieve it, if UI is not a Goku-specific transformation/technique, it gives fighters something to strive for).

Android Saga - Somewhat. Remember Goku readliy mocked Vegeta for being weaker than him.

Resurrection ‘F’ - He was mad that Vegeta got to train with Whis and said nothing about Vegeta getting ahead of him. In fact, he praised Vegeta for maybe surpassing him.

Against Freeza, he had no problem since Vegeta saved his life.

Manga not anime where Goku laughed in good nature when Vegeta said he was superior to him. And even in the manga, Goku always had Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he didn’t get it mid-sega.

Like I said, Goku sees Vegeta as a sparring partner, not really a rival. The manga tried to keep the rivalry alive, but I wished Toyo would at least try something original with it other than Vegeta being me too.

Android Saga - I meant the Android Saga proper. Certainly prior to and during the Cell Games, Goku's tone shifted. Sorry if I was unclear.

Zamasu (Manga) - I think it's ambiguous. Goku had an idea of the form (and when they fused as Vegetto, Vegeta realized Goku had it in mind), but it does seem that he used it in practice for the first time against Zamasu.

I agree 100% on the bolded, and I think that relationship is fair. I worry that if the kaio-ken is introduced, Vegeta at that point becomes a liability to Goku (as he was in the Cell Games or most of the Buu Arc, at least until Goku was brought back to life and realized he couldn't maintain full-power SSJ3 in a living body, at that point in time).

I guess we'll find out more of Toyo's intended approach as the Universe Survival Arc goes on. I understand Goku is the protagonist, and I think he has two techniques (even setting aside the kaio-ken) which give him a distinct advantage over Vegeta - the genki dama and teleportation. In-universe, however, there has been so much foreshadowing since the training before RoF, about Ultra Instinct (which is the payoff in this arc), that I think it's unnecessary to introduce kaio-ken to Goku's toolset while in blue (again, unless it fails; I did like Goku being hit by his own genki-dama, from a lore POV, since we already know kaio-ken can mess you up badly).

[TheSaiyanGod]

In the anime, an abyss of power was created with the Kaioken, not only between Goku and Vegeta, but between Goku and all the other Z Fighters

Yeah, if it weren't for the Kaio-ken the "Z Fighters" would be right on his tail.

The abyss of power was already big with only Blue, but increased even more with the Kaioken, that's what I meant

[HeroR]

Yes but this is not the anime. Vegeta is Goku's rival in the sense that they both compete for the same objective: being the strongest warrior and the only one in the whole of universe 7 that could rival each other in battle.


Thats why Tien and Piccolo aren't mentioned. They have only ever rivaled Goku twice and are no longer in the race.

Piccole rivaled Goku at the end of Dragon Ball, the beginning of Z, and surpassed him briefly after reuniting with Kami.

Goku was in a coma how does that count?

Even out of a coma, it took Goku a year.

Perhaps he doesn't view Goku as somebody he's chasing, but he views him as somebody on the same level:

Android Saga - Goku viewed Vegeta as an equal when he came up with the idea to go in the RoSaT originally
Post-BoG/Pre-RoF - Goku didn't want Vegeta to get ahead of him, panicked when he found out Vegeta had been training with Whis.
RoF - Goku had no problem with Vegeta fighting Freeza, and only intervened after the rewind when he had knowledge of Freeza's intent to blow up the planet.
Pre-U6 - Goku and Vegeta literally spend three years in the RoSaT getting to the same level, and reaching their limits.
U6 Tournament (manga version) - Goku when knocked out by Frost (before he realized he had been cheated) figured Vegeta had a chance to win. Also, he didn't view Vegeta's loss to Hit as something due to the difference in ability, but because Vegeta made a tactical error.
Zamasu/Black arc (manga version) - The two are presented on the same level, until Goku achieves Mastered Blue.
Pre-Universe Survival - Vegeta also achieves Mastered Blue, and Goku doesn't appear to have any other form (so else he would've used something against Toppo).

Goku probably doesn't view Vegeta as a direct rival (while on the other hand, Vegeta views him as one), but in the manga continuity, I think he feels they're on the same plane, chasing Beerus. Introducing kaio-ken shelves Vegeta as a fighter against major threats permanently, until it's written out (which again, I'm hoping UI does; even if Vegeta doesn't achieve it, if UI is not a Goku-specific transformation/technique, it gives fighters something to strive for).

Android Saga - Somewhat. Remember Goku readliy mocked Vegeta for being weaker than him.

Resurrection ‘F’ - He was mad that Vegeta got to train with Whis and said nothing about Vegeta getting ahead of him. In fact, he praised Vegeta for maybe surpassing him.

Against Freeza, he had no problem since Vegeta saved his life.

Manga not anime where Goku laughed in good nature when Vegeta said he was superior to him. And even in the manga, Goku always had Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he didn’t get it mid-sega.

Like I said, Goku sees Vegeta as a sparring partner, not really a rival. The manga tried to keep the rivalry alive, but I wished Toyo would at least try something original with it other than Vegeta being me too.

Android Saga - I meant the Android Saga proper. Certainly prior to and during the Cell Games, Goku's tone shifted. Sorry if I was unclear.

Zamasu (Manga) - I think it's ambiguous. Goku had an idea of the form (and when they fused as Vegetto, Vegeta realized Goku had it in mind), but it does seem that he used it in practice for the first time against Zamasu.

I agree 100% on the bolded, and I think that relationship is fair. I worry that if the kaio-ken is introduced, Vegeta at that point becomes a liability to Goku (as he was in the Cell Games or most of the Buu Arc, at least until Goku was brought back to life and realized he couldn't maintain full-power SSJ3 in a living body, at that point in time).

I guess we'll find out more of Toyo's intended approach as the Universe Survival Arc goes on. I understand Goku is the protagonist, and I think he has two techniques (even setting aside the kaio-ken) which give him a distinct advantage over Vegeta - the genki dama and teleportation. In-universe, however, there has been so much foreshadowing since the training before RoF, about Ultra Instinct (which is the payoff in this arc), that I think it's unnecessary to introduce kaio-ken to Goku's toolset while in blue (again, unless it fails; I did like Goku being hit by his own genki-dama, from a lore POV, since we already know kaio-ken can mess you up badly).

Vegeta was a liabity not because he was behind Goku in the Cell and Buu Saga. He was a liability because he was a selfish moron.

[HeroR]

I'm hoping Toyotaro decides against the kaio-ken, or Goku attempts to use it, and it fails. In-universe, it makes sense that it's too dangerous to attempt (and there hadn't been any attempt with the standard super saiyan forms), and if Goku tries it in a moment with the universe + afterlife on the line, I think it be more impactful to have it destroy his body/deplete his stamina. I also don't like that it creates an insurmountable gap between Goku and Vegeta (and I'm actually hoping that the anime introducing UI in a way writes that gap out of the series), and doing so what greatly diminish my interest in the series.

That said, Toei has animated blue + kaioken absolutely beautifully. So, if we get to see it in manga form, presumably with a color cover, I'm sure it would look outstanding as well.

Agreed. Their status as students of Whis who are on the same level and trying to outdo one another and chase Beerus is my favorite macro plot in Super. Part of why I liked the Buu Saga the least is because the Goku/Vegeta rivalry was written out (and it seemed contrived).

Goku hasn’t cared about outdoing Vegeta since the Freeza Saga. The rivalry had been one-sided since Goku doesn’t care. Goku is chasing Beerus and other rivals while Vegeta is stuck on Goku, which hinders him according to Whis.

That's not true at all. Goku gets annoyed when Vegeta gets special training without him

Thst would annoy him if that was anyone, including Gohan, since he wants special training too.

It's not just about special training.

When Goku learned that Vegeta was training six months with Whis, he became completely impatient.

At the beginning of the Future Trunks Saga, Goku also goes to the planet of Beerus immediately after learning that Vegeta is there. And after arriving, still complains with him.

Goku also does not want to be behind Vegeta.

And independent of this rivalry, it is much more interesting to have Goku and Vegeta on the same level.

In the anime, an abyss of power was created with the Kaioken, not only between Goku and Vegeta, but between Goku and all the other Z Fighters

That’s not really Goku not wanting to be behind Vegeta so much as Vegeta got to train while he was stuck doing farm work. If Goku did get behind Goku, unlike Vegeta, he really wouldn’t care since Vegeta isn’t his main driving force. He even complimented Vegeta for his gains.

As for the bolded, I can’t agree since Vegeta and Goku’s rivalry is basically the same thing we have gotten for decades and it’s boring since Goku doesn’t really care if Vegeta surpasses him nor is Vegeta his primary focus. The one Goku truly wants to surpass is Beerus and he really does wants to beat Hit at his best.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku hasn’t cared about outdoing Vegeta since the Freeza Saga. The rivalry had been one-sided since Goku doesn’t care. Goku is chasing Beerus and other rivals while Vegeta is stuck on Goku, which hinders him according to Whis.



Thst would annoy him if that was anyone, including Gohan, since he wants special training too.

It's not just about special training.

When Goku learned that Vegeta was training six months with Whis, he became completely impatient.

At the beginning of the Future Trunks Saga, Goku also goes to the planet of Beerus immediately after learning that Vegeta is there. And after arriving, still complains with him.

Goku also does not want to be behind Vegeta.

And independent of this rivalry, it is much more interesting to have Goku and Vegeta on the same level.

In the anime, an abyss of power was created with the Kaioken, not only between Goku and Vegeta, but between Goku and all the other Z Fighters

That’s not really Goku not wanting to be behind Vegeta so much as Vegeta got to train while he was stuck doing farm work. If Goku did get behind Goku, unlike Vegeta, he really wouldn’t care since Vegeta isn’t his main driving force. He even complimented Vegeta for his gains.

As for the bolded, I can’t agree since Vegeta and Goku’s rivalry is basically the same thing we have gotten for decades and it’s boring since Goku doesn’t really care if Vegeta surpasses him nor is Vegeta his primary focus. The one Goku truly wants to surpass is Beerus and he really does wants to beat Hit at his best.

At least in the manga, Goku did not know that Vegeta had gone to train with Whis (after the FT Saga) and was also annoyed with that.
In the anime, Goku insisted Vegeta go to the planet of Beerus with him and even tried to persuade him saying that it would get much stronger than him (Vegeta refused because of Bulma's pregnancy).

Goku also complimented Vegeta into DBZ, even letting him use RoSaT first.

In DBZ, Goku was always one step ahead of Vegeta. DBS changed that by making them both on the same level in the Golden Freeza Saga (giving Vegeta the divine transformations), in the manga he overcame Goku during his second fight against Black and is now at the same level as his rival to dominate SSB.

Unfortunately, the anime just kept this in the beginning. Now he continues to create ever greater power gaps between Goku and Vegeta, which is not very interesting considering there is still a sense of rivalry between the two

Despite this, Vegeta should not even have this incessant desire to overcome Goku. He had admitted that his rival was the most powerful in the Boo Saga, no longer felt those desires of envy and frustration.

[Kanassa]

Vegeta isn't a rival. The only time he could ever be considered close to a rival was in the Saiyan saga

As far as I know someone who's interested in keeping up with the main character and does so is a rival (a friendly rivalry now).

That's not a rival unless both people involved are competing with each other. The only time Goku had any sort of remote rivalry with Vegeta was the Saiyan saga where he purposely let's Vegeta go free so he has the chance to surpass him; after that Vegeta is that stalker who just won't get the message that you're not interested in a relationship.

Piccolo was much more of a rival, even if it was mostly off screen.

[BlueVegerot]

In the manga the oracle fish stated that goku and vegeta both would one day rival beerus so whatever technique/form goku uses in the tournament will be learned by vegeta soon after , probably the next arc. Also i hope that they choose to go with time chamber route rather than kaioken

[mfwlegend3]

Why has Toyotaro avoided doing Kaioken? Does he want to be completely original from what the anime has come up with? They borrowed his God switching tactic, so I think using SSB Kaioken should be no issue.

[Analytical Delusion]

Why has Toyotaro avoided doing Kaioken? Does he want to be completely original from what the anime has come up with? They borrowed his God switching tactic, so I think using SSB Kaioken should be no issue.

I think either:

(1) Kaio-ken was never specifically in Toriyama's outlines, and is just a Toei exclusive.
(2) Toyotaro might be saving it for a big moment (maybe to use out of desperation at the TOP, and it fails, leading to Ultra Instinct?)

[BlueVegerot]

Why has Toyotaro avoided doing Kaioken? Does he want to be completely original from what the anime has come up with? They borrowed his God switching tactic, so I think using SSB Kaioken should be no issue.

In the manga, the completed blue form is extremely hard on your body and can only be used for a short amount of time, adding kaioken on top of that would be overkill. Vegeta said the completed blue form was tearing up goku's body so imagine combining that strain with kaioken, he would explode on the spot

[Noah]

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Zen'one: I can't see a thing at all.
Zentwo: Can't see a thing.

Grand Priest: Zen'ou-sama is not enjoying your battle because it is too violent. Therefore, the Gods of Destruction will not participate in the tournament.

You know this seems quite stupid when you stop to look at. I mean "too violent"? That doesn't even make sense with the Hakaishin participating in the tournament or not.

Why has Toyotaro avoided doing Kaioken? Does he want to be completely original from what the anime has come up with? They borrowed his God switching tactic, so I think using SSB Kaioken should be no issue.

Nah, Kaioken now would not be a surprise. Just let Toyotaro introduce SSJB2

[mfwlegend3]

You know this seems quite stupid when you stop to look at. I mean "too violent"? That doesn't even make sense with the Hakaishin participating in the tournament or not

I guess they're not going to be a fan of Kale, then.

[superfan2024]

I'm guessing that Toei wants a new transformation every arc for money, video games, merchandise, and etc, but Toriyama originally intended for Goku to just use SSJG and SSJB against Hit. The same goes for SSJ Rage for Trunks in the Zamasu arc and how i'm guessing Toriyama only wanted Trunks to just be a bit stronger than SSJ3 like in the manga.

[Simere]

Nah, Kaioken now would not be a surprise. Just let Toyotaro introduce SSJB2

SSB2 is too big a thing to just do on his own, isn't it?