"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Exline]

I didn't even attack the anime. I used an example that the anime tends to use in nearly every fight.

To be fair you kinda meme'd it but I only replied to your initial point so all is alright for me cheers lol

Fair point, but does that really determine that I was attacking the anime..?

[TKA]

This is the only part I want to address cause I find it kinda hilarious. In the context of the original manga, both guru and SSJ2 were initially “gohan’s Unlock”.

The grand Elder's unlock was invalidated pretty fast when Gohan was unlocking more potential when he got mad that Frieza tortured Piccolo. That told everyone right there that what The Grand Elder pulled out was only a fraction of what Gohan was capable of. SS2 in the Cell arc was meant to be the culmination of Gohan's character arc, I agree. However, the Buu arc walked that back by having Gohan be weaker than it was then, and then differentiated his character from all the battle-loving people he grew up around further. That's character development.

Also, it cannot be understated that him choosing to take up the fight against Buu is arguably a stronger moment than him being forced to fight Cell. Two fundamentally different moments for the character.

I don’t see how Toriyama was “pretty smart” for that

It's smart because instead of screaming really loudly an unlocking a new form, Toriyama built it up using the pre-established plot point of his hidden potential.

[batistabus]

Also, I find it a bit disingenuous to downplay what that scene meant for Vegeta's character. That was the first instance of Vegeta fighting for someone else, and was clearly an impactful moment that would define where his character would go in the next arc. He attacked Cell because he just watched his son get killed before him.

1. Vegeta gets really mad against Frieza to the point he starts crying. No rage boosts.
2. Vegeta gets mad and desperate fighting Zarbon and Recoom. No rage boosts.
3. Goku gets really mad at Super Buu. No rage boosts.
4. Vegeta gets really mad at Pure Buu. No rage boosts.

It goes against the fundamental themes of the story if you don't have to work for your power; you just have to scream really loudly.

Zenkai boosts, in that respect, are inherently better. They're not boosts that come out of nowhere. Indeed, during the part of the story where they actually mattered, characters found multiple ways of abusing the mechanic that also showed the stark differences between the characters.

I'm not trying to downplay that scene; I think it's great. It was the start of something new for Vegeta. I don't think Vegeta getting a rage boost for Bulma but not Trunks shows he doesn't give a crap about Trunks, though. It shows how much Vegeta has softened up and learned to truly love his family by that point.

Those examples are characters getting mad because they're being overpowered. The examples I gave (Goku SS1, Gohan SS2, Vegeta/Bulma, Cabba) are rage induced by empathy towards others. My point is that it's a deeper feeling of anger.

It's not just screaming loudly, it's hurting because you care for someone else. It doesn't mean you scream and automatically win. It's a moment that gives you a small chance or pushes you over the edge.

How can you say zenkai boosts didn't come out of nowhere? Did anyone ever mention that Goku gets stronger when he recovers from a near-death experience before he was flying to Namek? It was a convenient way to get him on par with Freeza. I don't hate the idea, but it has its problems. I agree that zenkai boosts are used more creatively, but you can't exactly abuse the power of rage if it means inflicting harm on your loved ones.

[Miracles]

This is the part of DB I don't quite understand. How do rage boosts work? How does anger itself increase your power level? I always thought Anger was an emotion that would block your Ki.]

Do rage boosts unlock a hidden power within the user or something?

In DB rage boost was exclusively for Gohan due to his hybrid nature [Radditz/Piccolo].
Rage was also a requirement only to become SSJ1 too. That was as far as rage with power increase went.

However with Super they used it as a way to get stronger in general.
They even messed Zenkai's up, In DB, only to be used to increase a Saiyan's strength when they recover from near death.
In Super we got Black's Ki increasing just from taking damage. The Super manga kept continuity with Zamasu healing Black to improve.

[Saiga]

I think Vegeta getting the rage boost against Beerus hurts the scene, actually. It really colours the perception to 'Vegeta temporaily surpassed Goku!/Look how impressive Vegeta is!' and

It's also not that uncommon a trend for one character to have a loved one hurt so that character can have a dramatic moment that shows they care or how tough they can be when fighting for someone else.

That idea was fine... for Cell arc Vegeta, who still had a long way to go. By the time of BOG, seeing Vegeta get angry and attack people is no longer new or impressive.

The bingo dance was a much better character moment that really displayed his growth.

[JazzMazz]

This is the part of DB I don't quite understand. How do rage boosts work? How does anger itself increase your power level? I always thought Anger was an emotion that would block your Ki.]

Do rage boosts unlock a hidden power within the user or something?

In DB rage boost was exclusively for Gohan due to his hybrid nature [Radditz/Piccolo].
Rage was also a requirement only to become SSJ1 too. That was as far as rage with power increase went.

However with Super they used it as a way to get stronger in general.
They even messed Zenkai's up, In DB, only to be used to increase a Saiyan's strength when they recover from near death.
In Super we got Black's Ki increasing just from taking damage. The Super manga kept continuity with Zamasu healing Black to improve.

Hell, even that entire idea doesn't make any sense, because by the time we're introduced to Zamasu, his base form is already capable of owning SS2 Trunks easily, which really shouldn't happen if Zenkai's don't work on Goku and Vegeta at all. It's just kind of dumb. Toyo went out of his way to make sure Blacks increases in strength made sense, but he only ended up making it even less since continuity.

I think Vegeta getting the rage boost against Beerus hurts the scene, actually. It really colours the perception to 'Vegeta temporaily surpassed Goku!/Look how impressive Vegeta is!' and

It's also not that uncommon a trend for one character to have a loved one hurt so that character can have a dramatic moment that shows they care or how tough they can be when fighting for someone else.

That idea was fine... for Cell arc Vegeta, who still had a long way to go. By the time of BOG, seeing Vegeta get angry and attack people is no longer new or impressive.

The bingo dance was a much better character moment that really displayed his growth.

Despite liking the merit behind the bingo scene, I think the anime's replacement of it with Vegeta cooking is not only far more entertaining to me, but also far more in character for Vegeta(especially since it was helped with Vegeta's dis-taste for Octipus being demonstrated in episode 2).

[PsionicWarrior]

I didn't even attack the anime. I used an example that the anime tends to use in nearly every fight.

To be fair you kinda meme'd it but I only replied to your initial point so all is alright for me cheers lol

Fair point, but does that really determine that I was attacking the anime..?

I don't know your posting history but replies imply that you regularly jab the anime, bleh doesn't really matter lol

[Dbzk1999]

This is the part of DB I don't quite understand. How do rage boosts work? How does anger itself increase your power level? I always thought Anger was an emotion that would block your Ki.]

Do rage boosts unlock a hidden power within the user or something?

In DB rage boost was exclusively for Gohan due to his hybrid nature [Radditz/Piccolo].
Rage was also a requirement only to become SSJ1 too. That was as far as rage with power increase went.

However with Super they used it as a way to get stronger in general.
They even messed Zenkai's up, In DB, only to be used to increase a Saiyan's strength when they recover from near death.
In Super we got Black's Ki increasing just from taking damage. The Super manga kept continuity with Zamasu healing Black to improve.

Was Black actually getting Zenkais in the anime? I know that he was getting stronger. But I just attributed that to referencing that interview with Toriyama after Battle of Gods came out where fighting strong opponents causes Saiyans to apparently get stronger rapidly

[Bergamo]

This is the part of DB I don't quite understand. How do rage boosts work? How does anger itself increase your power level? I always thought Anger was an emotion that would block your Ki.]

Do rage boosts unlock a hidden power within the user or something?

In DB rage boost was exclusively for Gohan due to his hybrid nature [Radditz/Piccolo].
Rage was also a requirement only to become SSJ1 too. That was as far as rage with power increase went.

However with Super they used it as a way to get stronger in general.
They even messed Zenkai's up, In DB, only to be used to increase a Saiyan's strength when they recover from near death.
In Super we got Black's Ki increasing just from taking damage. The Super manga kept continuity with Zamasu healing Black to improve.

Hell, even that entire idea doesn't make any sense, because by the time we're introduced to Zamasu, his base form is already capable of owning SS2 Trunks easily, which really shouldn't happen if Zenkai's don't work on Goku and Vegeta at all. It's just kind of dumb. Toyo went out of his way to make sure Blacks increases in strength made sense, but he only ended up making it even less since continuity.

I think Vegeta getting the rage boost against Beerus hurts the scene, actually. It really colours the perception to 'Vegeta temporaily surpassed Goku!/Look how impressive Vegeta is!' and

It's also not that uncommon a trend for one character to have a loved one hurt so that character can have a dramatic moment that shows they care or how tough they can be when fighting for someone else.

That idea was fine... for Cell arc Vegeta, who still had a long way to go. By the time of BOG, seeing Vegeta get angry and attack people is no longer new or impressive.

The bingo dance was a much better character moment that really displayed his growth.

Despite liking the merit behind the bingo scene, I think the anime's replacement of it with Vegeta cooking is not only far more entertaining to me, but also far more in character for Vegeta(especially since it was helped with Vegeta's dis-taste for Octipus being demonstrated in episode 2).

Black states in the manga that near death experiences accelerate how quickly his soul merges with his body. It's not a zenkai boost, but it's more of a situational variant of the Saiyan trait.

[batistabus]

The bingo dance was a much better character moment that really displayed his growth.

The bingo dance isn't really a moment of growth for Vegeta, it's a moment that shows just how intimidating Beerus is. It's not as if Vegeta is a dancer all of a sudden. He needed to create a distraction to prevent Earth from being destroyed, so he played the role of court jester and did some stupid dance he probably saw on TV once. Yes, it's hilarious to see a character as serious as Vegeta dance like that, and yes Vegeta has more to protect now than before, but had Vegeta encountered Beerus sometime between the destruction of Planet Vegeta and Battle of Gods, I'm sure he would've done something embarrassing to prevent destruction all the same.

Thematically, a character becoming Super Saiyan through anger and getting stronger through anger are virtually identical. In both cases, the power is inside the person the whole time, but it's only being called out in a desperate moment. The difference is that, in the case of Super Saiyan, the transformation is hinted to leading up to the moment. However, the power gained from Super Saiyan is more significant and becomes part of the character's arsenal moving forward. Characters getting non-Super Saiyan rage boosts result in attacks that are ultimately inconsequential to defeating the enemy, so they don't require the same buildup.

[Miracles]

Hell, even that entire idea doesn't make any sense, because by the time we're introduced to Zamasu, his base form is already capable of owning SS2 Trunks easily, which really shouldn't happen if Zenkai's don't work on Goku and Vegeta at all. It's just kind of dumb. Toyo went out of his way to make sure Blacks increases in strength made sense, but he only ended up making it even less since continuity.

I don't remember anytime in Super [manga/anime] where Trunks SSJ2 was walked on by Zamasu.
Quite the opposite, Trunks tag-blasted Zamasu in the anime and Goku even stated Zamasu is no match for Trunks in the manga.

Was Black actually getting Zenkais in the anime? I know that he was getting stronger. But I just attributed that to referencing that interview with Toriyama after Battle of Gods came out where fighting strong opponents causes Saiyans to apparently get stronger rapidly

I remember the interview. I remember that statement being said through out Toriyama's manga back in DB as well.
However, it was through Zenkai, now he allows Saiyans to grow during the battle. It looks like a retcon.
I thought it was different with Black tho, Whenever Black would get seriously injured, particularly in his first fight against SSJ2 Goku.
He would state "this pain would make me even stronger." Seems to me that is akin to a Zenkai. Toyotaro just made Black get stronger through what was known in the past.

[ToshioWrites]

1. Toriyama said that zenkais basically became so minimal after the saiyans first achieved super saiyan that they didn't move the needle anymore and the saiyans had to rely on improving their base power and transformations.

2. Hell IIRC in buu arc after dende healed gohan during his fight with buutenks, gohans power didn't increase at all, ssb vegeta power didn't increase post senzu after ss1 black beat him down and vegeta had to train in RoSAT to get stronger , he couldn't rely on zenkais anymore.

3. Even the whole "saiyans improve during battle thing" seemed like it was shoehorned into this arc because

goku didn't improve during fight with golden freeza
goku didn't improve vs hit
he never improved vs goku black or m zamasu , i guess if you want to count the arm blowing out kamehameha but that seemed more like exhausting everything than improvement

Even back in z , goku didn't improve vs freeza, cell or buu among the main villains.

[Saiga]

The bingo dance was a much better character moment that really displayed his growth.

The bingo dance isn't really a moment of growth for Vegeta, it's a moment that shows just how intimidating Beerus is. It's not as if Vegeta is a dancer all of a sudden. He needed to create a distraction to prevent Earth from being destroyed, so he played the role of court jester and did some stupid dance he probably saw on TV once. Yes, it's hilarious to see a character as serious as Vegeta dance like that, and yes Vegeta has more to protect now than before, but had Vegeta encountered Beerus sometime between the destruction of Planet Vegeta and Battle of Gods, I'm sure he would've done something embarrassing to prevent destruction all the same.

Thematically, a character becoming Super Saiyan through anger and getting stronger through anger are virtually identical. In both cases, the power is inside the person the whole time, but it's only being called out in a desperate moment. The difference is that, in the case of Super Saiyan, the transformation is hinted to leading up to the moment. However, the power gained from Super Saiyan is more significant and becomes part of the character's arsenal moving forward. Characters getting non-Super Saiyan rage boosts result in attacks that are ultimately inconsequential to defeating the enemy, so they don't require the same buildup.

I definitely don't think the intent of the bingo scene is that Vegets would have done that at any point in his life. That goes against the short conversation Goku and Beerus had about Vegeta throwing away his pride and how it impressed Goku. If it was about that, it doesn't really make sense, as Beerus should be no more terrifying than Freeza would be to Namek arc Vegeta since either could easily kill him.

The fact that rage boosts are inconsequential doesn't seem like much of a defence to me. If they're inconsequential at best, they should just be removed. The mechanic of allowing anyone to get stronger from rage therefore does the series no favours and also creates problems, as even if circumstances result in it being inconsequential, the characters shouldn't be so meta and should be trying to exploit such a power-up.

Having little build up and no lasting consequences aren't balancing/justifying factors to me, butsigns that the detail has no real value.

[JazzMazz]

Hell, even that entire idea doesn't make any sense, because by the time we're introduced to Zamasu, his base form is already capable of owning SS2 Trunks easily, which really shouldn't happen if Zenkai's don't work on Goku and Vegeta at all. It's just kind of dumb. Toyo went out of his way to make sure Blacks increases in strength made sense, but he only ended up making it even less since continuity.

I don't remember anytime in Super [manga/anime] where Trunks SSJ2 was walked on by Zamasu.
Quite the opposite, Trunks tag-blasted Zamasu in the anime and Goku even stated Zamasu is no match for Trunks in the manga.

Was Black actually getting Zenkais in the anime? I know that he was getting stronger. But I just attributed that to referencing that interview with Toriyama after Battle of Gods came out where fighting strong opponents causes Saiyans to apparently get stronger rapidly

I remember the interview. I remember that statement being said through out Toriyama's manga back in DB as well.
However, it was through Zenkai, now he allows Saiyans to grow during the battle. It looks like a retcon.
I thought it was different with Black tho, Whenever Black would get seriously injured, particularly in his first fight against SSJ2 Goku.
He would state "this pain would make me even stronger." Seems to me that is akin to a Zenkai. Toyotaro just made Black get stronger through what was known in the past.

Sorry, I meant Black, since you know, he is Zamasu, and I did refer to him in his base form, so I don't really see what your getting at here.

Use your comprehension skills.

[Whatever]

The grand Elder's unlock was invalidated pretty fast when Gohan was unlocking more potential when he got mad that Frieza tortured Piccolo. That told everyone right there that what The Grand Elder pulled out was only a fraction of what Gohan was capable of.

That told us that Toriyama is not consistent,no rage boost happened when Krillin got destroyed by Reccome,Gohan has more potential to tap into when its convenient for Toriyama.

Zenkai boosts, in that respect, are inherently better. They're not boosts that come out of nowhere. Indeed, during the part of the story where they actually mattered, characters found multiple ways of abusing the mechanic that also showed the stark differences between the characters.

They did come out of nowhere,they are retcons if anything,they appeared in the Freeza saga with Krillin pretending that Goku always got Zenkai boosts since OG DB and they dissapeared for no reason outside of that 1 time in the Cell saga for the rest of the series.

SS2 in the Cell arc was meant to be the culmination of Gohan's character arc, I agree.

SSJ2 was the culmination of Gohan's gimmick since for the first time his rage boosts won him a battle,Gohan has completed his character arc in the Freeza saga and only regressed as a character in the Cell arc,including his pacifist nature out of the nowhere for the sake of 'tension'.

However, the Buu arc walked that back by having Gohan be weaker than it was then, and then differentiated his character from all the battle-loving people he grew up around further. That's character development

Thats not character development,thats Gohan having different character traits from the others.

It's smart because instead of screaming really loudly an unlocking a new form, Toriyama built it up using the pre-established plot point of his hidden potential

Man Toriyama is so smart by unlocking Gohan's potential for the 3rd time and by having him become the stronger by sitting around an old man dancing as a reward for slacking for 7 years despite logic telling you he should not have any more potential to unlock.
In the end of the day a Kai came out of a sword to give Gohan a cheap power up that did nothing for his character,whatever it took 1 chapter or 10 chapters does not make a difference.

[ToshioWrites]

Chapter 36 predictions?

Goku uses spirit bomb on jiren, fails, he gets Omen and they fight and it ends the same way it did in the anime.

[Exline]

Chapter 36 predictions?
-Goku uses spirit bomb on jiren, fails, he gets Omen and they fight and it ends the same way it did in the anime.

I doubt it would end the same as the anime. Toyotaro has really been going out of his way to make this tournament feel extremely different.

I'd much prefer new moves used in the battle against Jiren. Or at least make the Dragon Fist canon in the Super continuity. It's a much more interesting technique compared to the Spirit Bomb. I felt that move was unnecessary since Jiren isn't evil and the Spirit Bomb is meant to kill evil enemies right? It also feels odd having Goku ask for energy in the middle of a tournament; a battle royal to be specific.

Interesting.. I didn't see him as lazy until now. I revered Toriyama for these shortcuts within his manga as if he were a genius.

Don't get me wrong; the short cuts are still genius. Toriyama cares about putting out good work, but he's very transparent about his motivation levels in interviews and author comments. Even when he refined his style to be "rougher" in the Boo arc, his drawings were still oozing with charm.

I think Toyotaro's green nature is certainly excusable. Like TKA said, of course he is going to fall short of Toriyama. The most important thing for me is that his stories are interesting, exciting, funny, sensible, and still have that Toriyama flair. They certainly do as far as I'm concerned.

Ah I understand now. However, I am still upset with his designs post-23 World Martial Arts Tournament. All we ever do is get fights in wastelands. Namek was anextremely boring design wise as well. I'm starting to think he came up with the Great Drought as an excuse to lower the population and make the scenery look extremely simple.

It seems these shortcuts of his have manifested into laziness more than technique.

(Old Reply on my laptop that I never posted haha)

[STH]

Chapter 36 predictions?

Goku uses spirit bomb on jiren, fails, he gets Omen and they fight and it ends the same way it did in the anime.

I do not think goku will use genki dama. Like Trunks in the manga. I think goku will achieve UI by himself. Maybe he will imitate Beerus.

[Miracles]

Sorry, I meant Black, since you know, he is Zamasu, and I did refer to him in his base form, so I don't really see what your getting at here.

Use your comprehension skills.

Zenkai's didn't work on past U7 Vegeta and Goku cause they trained their bodies to their limit. Black's Goku body had not, didn't have god powers till later.

[Cipher]

Hell, even that entire idea doesn't make any sense, because by the time we're introduced to Zamasu, his base form is already capable of owning SS2 Trunks easily, which really shouldn't happen if Zenkai's don't work on Goku and Vegeta at all.

The manga went out of its way to explain that Black's power-ups were specifically due to Zamasu being in Goku's body, as it more and more closely aligned with his spirit/energy when it recovered. Basically re-activating the Saiyan near-death power-ups, as it were.

So the power-ups don't work on Goku and Vegeta at all, but do for Black. He basically got to go through "Saiyan near-death power-ups, round two" starting from modern Goku's current strength, or maybe a bit higher due to Kaioshin-spirit shenanigans.

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Re: A conversation a few pages back about Toyotaro over-inbetweening his fights (citing an example of Hit winding up a kick in the most recent chapter), I absolutely agree. Toyotaro's pages not only contain twice as many panels as Toriyama's (to the point that you could cut most in half horizontally and basically get two things with the general panel-count and layout of a Toriyama page), but he dedicates more panels to inbetween action that Toriyama would have implied solely through posing and action lines. Toriyama was a master of selecting the right poses on either side of an action, as well as impact shots, to imply a sense of speed, power, and continuity, while actually showing very little on the page. Toyotaro frequently attempts to show a lot of movement, and it has the effect of slowing some of his fights. His impact is also rather dull.

It's all serviceable, and a lot of the art is lively and fun, but it's not a series you come to for the visual craftsmanship. The Hit-Jiren fight last chapter was rather underwhelming from a storyboarding perspective, and that's a shame. But the art is still communicative and--to agree with other sentiments a few pages back--his character-scripting is spot on, and that's what I'm here for. Much like the two recent Toriyama movies, if there's going to be sequel Dragon Ball, all I ask is that the characters feel sincere and feel like themselves, and that's something the manga has consistently offered even when its action has been, if not bad, pretty far removed from Toriyama.