"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

I don't understand how one can accept these just for the fact their consistent, yet ignore the lack of anything compelling or interesting occurring within these fights.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I've already explained why I think these fights are compelling, interesting and engaging rather consistently throughout this thread.

Maybe you and I just look for different things in the series and have different semantic interpretations for those terms, and that's fine, but not everybody here is going to subscribe to the "consistent but boring" claim that people sometimes (unfairly, in my opinion) attribute to the manga.

[TKA]

Goku comments that Jiren purposefully played along so that he could eliminate Hit

This is what I said, yes. This is also what Goku stated in the chapter. No arguing this.

without spending any energy

Goku said Jiren is saving his strength, yes.

There was nothing about how "he couldn't just overpower Hit", and overpowering Hit is exactly what he did in the end, no matter how clever you think the leadup to the overpowering was. Again, there's nothing that indicates Jiren was forced into this. What was implied is that he could have overpowered him at any time, he just didn't want to

In the anime, Jiren bulks up and just breaks out of Hit's move because he surpasses time or whatever, and then eliminates him. That is overpowering Hit.

Here, he had to lure Hit in by playing possum and then caught him offguard with a sucker punch. Then Hit's ability wore off because he got eliminated/Jiren legitimately broke Hit's technique and eliminated him with a sucker punch.

Those are completely different. In the former, he won just with his overwhelming brute force. In the latter, he had to use strategy because clearly the former wasn't an option for him. If it was, why not do it?

There's only 2 answers:

1. He wants to conserve energy. We know that in this series, fighting at your full power blows your energy and stamina very quickly. That is not conducive to winning the ToP.

2. He can overcome the technique whenever he wants, but doesn't want to get into a protracted fight with Hit. Hit's techniques only work on people around his level, so it would make sense why Jiren doesn't want a long fight with him, hence why he tricked him into letting his guard down.

Either way, it means Jiren isn't the god in the manga that he is in the anime. Either way, it means Jiren had to use actual strategy to beat Hit.

[Miracles]

Toyotaro's Goku is doing a generic pose and it's tracing all of a sudden? Characters never stood with their hands to the side; legs bent? Anyone who runs with their hands to the side is tracing Sonic the Hedgehog now? And who did the artist of Sonic trace? "Bu..But the images are identical," there is no such thing as by chance anymore?

Also, Vegeta stating he is the greatest in all existence is his usual arrogant prideful self. Vegeta ALWAYS had a false view of himself and always will. This will never change cause it's part of his character that keeps him going.

The images line up. It's not simply a case of being identical. And people keep saying "generic pose" as a justification but I have yet to see other examples.

https://imgur.com/oavgaXT

https://imgur.com/XjqVfH0

Besides hand placements and spatial footing, Images are all similar. If I'm not mistaken, the actual V-jump cover does not "line up" with Captain America's pic either. They are simply similar, that's the only case the opposition has on Toyotaro.

BTW, some are saying Kurrin and Tien had no purpose. Kurirn gave the answer himself when he was sent to the stands. He and Tien were used for the purpose of freeza by gaining Frosts trust, making Frost expel energy early so Freeza could KO him without wasting any energy of his own.

[prince212]

Hope Next chapter 37 yes or yes we will get some u6 saiyans action or at least introduction to their fights , will be good a chapter break without u7 fighters involved , or at least not focus on them. Well we had hit in 35 but those saiyans didn’t have any punch iirc.
Who is gonna mafuba Roshi if so ? Don’t remember if any of his anime rivals are still around

[Simere]

In the anime, Jiren bulks up and just breaks out of Hit's move because he surpasses time or whatever, and then eliminates him. That is overpowering Hit.

Here, he had to lure Hit in by playing possum and then caught him offguard with a sucker punch. Then Hit's ability wore off because he got eliminated/Jiren legitimately broke Hit's technique and eliminated him with a sucker punch.

Those are completely different. In the former, he won just with his overwhelming brute force. In the latter, he had to use strategy because clearly the former wasn't an option for him. If it was, why not do it?

That dismissive reference to overpowering time you keep making is exactly happened in the manga. In the anime Jiren struggled with Hit's ability at first, then overpowered it. In the manga he struggled with Hit's technique at first, but turned out that was just a ploy, and then he overpowered it. Yes, I see a difference, but it's not that grand. It's only grand if you think he had to resort to feigning weakness, which I guess you do, and on that note....

There's only 2 answers:

1. He wants to conserve energy. We know that in this series, fighting at your full power blows your energy and stamina very quickly. That is not conducive to winning the ToP.

2. He can overcome the technique whenever he wants, but doesn't want to get into a protracted fight with Hit. Hit's techniques only work on people around his level, so it would make sense why Jiren doesn't want a long fight with him, hence why he tricked him into letting his guard down.

Either way, it means Jiren isn't the god in the manga that he is in the anime. Either way, it means Jiren had to use actual strategy to beat Hit.

I just don't see where you're pulling words like "had" from. I see no reason to think that he was forced into it, other than a logical leap that because he didn't he couldn't. All that was said is that he was saving his power, and the potential reasons for doing so go beyond concern that your stamina won't last. Just look to Jiren in the anime for some of them. Look to yourself or any of us for more: we usually don't spend energy we could easily sustain if the situation doesn't call for it, because...why would we?

Hit didn't call for it.

But you're certainly right that Jiren has less of an unbeatable god vibe in the manga than in the anime. That comes down entirely to the way each went about building him up, not reading deeply into how much effort Jiren expended on beating Hit.

[BlueVegerot]

Its not gonna surprise me if we find out later on via dialogue that belmod is the weakest GoD and thats why he had to try and be cunning at the zen exhibition and that jiren isn't particularly close to the top level GoDs like quitela and beerus

[Bergamo]

Its not gonna surprise me if we find out later on via dialogue that belmod is the weakest GoD and thats why he had to try and be cunning at the zen exhibition and that jiren isn't particularly close to the top level GoDs like quitela and beerus

We haven't seen Jiren go all out yet. It wasn't even suggested that he's anywhere close to full power in Chapter 36.

[BlueVegerot]

Its not gonna surprise me if we find out later on via dialogue that belmod is the weakest GoD and thats why he had to try and be cunning at the zen exhibition and that jiren isn't particularly close to the top level GoDs like quitela and beerus

We haven't seen Jiren go all out yet. It wasn't even suggested that he's anywhere close to full power in Chapter 36.

I know however jiren from in the special wasn't trying either but he came across an a completely unbeatable monster whereas here while he did dominate, he doesn't feel damn near as strong or dominant

[PsionicWarrior]

Don't really care about the cpt murica pose but disappointed again with 36, drawings are so subpar ugh...

[TKA]

I just don't see where you're pulling words like "had" from.

Didn't you read the post you quoted?

I suppose there is a third option that would answer why Jiren would employ such a tactic when he didn't have to:

3. He's a "troll" and did for "the lulz".

I highly, highly doubt that's going to be his character, so that realy only leaves option 1 and 2.

[Simere]

I just don't see where you're pulling words like "had" from.

Didn't you read the post you quoted?

Yeah, I read it. Familiar reading, as it was the same thing you were saying last month. Just as baseless today as it was then. As I said in the post you didn't quote, the only way to reach those conclusions is by faulty reasoning. I don't see anything in the text that establishes your hasty assumptions because there is nothing.

I suppose there is a third option that would answer why Jiren would employ such a tactic when he didn't have to:

3. He's a "troll" and did for "the lulz".

I highly, highly doubt that's going to be his character, so that realy only leaves option 1 and 2.

It's not "for the lulz" to take the path of least resistance; it's not trolling to avoid trying harder than you need to. Don't you do anything competitively? Haven't you ever exploited a weakness or opening in your opponent's approach, even though you would have been perfectly fine taking it head on?

[UltraPrimus22]

Kale is significant because it speaks directly to Toei's approach to the series. Do what will be popular and sell well above all.

Going by this mentality, then readers should equally judge Toyotaro when he blatantly used a similar thought process when he also including Vegetto Blue within the manga.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

It seems rather hypocritical to expect an enthusiastic fellowman like Toyotaro not to input his own or fan desires to appease other fans like him, but then easily condemn a staff team that is also littered with some like-minded folks people (Toshio comes to mind) for doing the same. At the end of the day, both the staff and Toyotaro are guilty of this, but still talk to Toriyama to get some feedback and approval for these ideas (and he's no stranger to flat out rejecting them either). Whether or not the execution works is up to the viewer/reader.

My point has nothing to do with the manga being black and white. How much marketing have you seen for secondary products relating to the anime vs the manga? I've seen plenty of Ikari, mutated Zamasu, SSBKK, and Omen figures, but I have yet to see a SSG Vegeta or SS Black (which was Toriyama's idea, btw).

Firstly, let's remember that the animated depictions of Super are considered the primary source for the Super Era, since it started out as being the first animated continuation after the Buu Saga (canon debates aside). The Super manga, being in V-Jump, serves as a promotional material for series to this day, despite having some liberties taken and the aforementioned anime recently concluded (Remember, there's still a Super-associated movie coming in December, and Toyotaro's expected to tie into that as well).

In this instance, the Super Manga is no different from a novelization book made for another series, that also take liberties with the source material (sometimes expanding on concepts that the original didn't cover, or using scrapped ideas that the original source negated). So personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if merchandising material focused on the anime's events rather on another product's similar events. Then again, going by Baggie Saiyan's analysis of how Super's [lack of] timely and varied merchandise, I'm not too sure if they're handling that aspect well either.

That being said, for merchandise that references the manga, you would look towards the video games. Super Dragon Ball Heroes has manga-exclusive moves for specific Vegeta and Goku cards, such as the Gamma Burst Flash for Vegeta and the recently debuted Hakai variation for Goku.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Xenoverse 2's DLC characters include Champa and Fused Zamasu, whose fighting styles and moves take clear inspirations from their manga counterparts. (Champa's God of Destruction's Menace and Fused Zamasu's telekinetic manipulation and choke, along with his anime's abilities, come to mind).

Dokkan Battle, meanwhile, borrows from the aforementioned. Slowly, but surely, material from the manga is getting adapted into other major merchandise. Which is great in my book, because I'd like to see Toyotaro's ideas equally have some chance in the limelight! Who knows, maybe you'll get an official God Vegeta and Super Saiyan Goku Black in the next two years?

[Miracles]

Its not gonna surprise me if we find out later on via dialogue that belmod is the weakest GoD and thats why he had to try and be cunning at the zen exhibition and that jiren isn't particularly close to the top level GoDs like quitela and beerus

I'm glad you're not the only one who sees this as a big probability. Especially from what we've seen in the gods exhibition match in the manga with Belmound being nothing special. Then we find out a mortal is stronger than him, a god, quite shameful. Not too mention Quitela is a Toriyama original creation. One of the first to be created by Toriyama himself. No surprise he and Beerus would be among the best of the gods.

[Kenneth La Torre]

People keep clinging to beerus still being above a completes UI goku and jiren, despite the fact that we have sources atating otherwise, especially one where it states that UI from 129 is possibly above beerus already.

[Bergamo]

People keep clinging to beerus still being above a completes UI goku and jiren, despite the fact that we have sources atating otherwise, especially one where it states that UI from 129 is possibly above beerus already.

Wrong thread, bro.

[Miracles]

Jiren is god status in the manga too just like his anime counterpart. Unlike the anime Jiren actually powered up before facing Goku the first time.
In the manga he didn't even power up to face BOTH Hit and a MSSB Goku, who can go head up with a fusion character, at the same time.
Even casually tanked a point blank Kamehameha from a MSSB unlike anime Jiren, who dodged it with a shocked look, like it was dangerous.

Not to mention a STILL suppressed Jiren casually pwned a physically stronger Hit. Who honed his raw power, not just time skip. Big difference from anime Hit, being physically outmatched by Dyspo.
Jiren did indeed casually lure Hit to the edge of the ring, letting him think he was winning then KO'ing him by instantly increasing his speed to break out of his time lag. Without wasting energy is insane.
Jiren saved energy in the anime too, not getting involved early and often. Even listened to Toppo about it. He would even meditate.

Both Jiren's have god status, Jiren looks stronger in the manga.

[YamiGoku]

[spoiler]https://youtu.be/irpTStLTqCs?t=363[/spoiler]

I think Ajay makes a strong case about the Tracing.

[batistabus]

snip

Dragon Room has a direct line to Toei where they say things like: "Put this in your show so we can sell merchandise to this specific demographic."

Toyotaro: Puts Vegetto in his manga because he doesn't want to disappoint people.

There's obviously a difference here. It's not entirely the fault of Toei's writers, but it hurts the product in my view. Additionally, your examples of manga-based "merchandising" are much less extensive than the anime-based examples I gave.

I don't mind merchandising. I know it's necessary for the existence of Super, and I collect figures myself. However, the content of the series should drive the merchandise, not vise versa.

I would love to own DBS manga merch some day!

I also don't agree that there isn't timely merchandise. It exists, but it just might not be the merchandise you're personally interested in buying. There are plenty of timely releases of DBH cards, SD figures, and keychains.

[majinwarman]

But the thing is they didn't have the originality to create their own scene much like toyotaro didn't have it to create his own pose.

The director said that they wanted to have homages to Western movies. Tracing is a huge crime and can cause legal problems which Shonen Jump doesn't need.

That can also be used to argue for toyotaro he did say his intention in doing the Manga is so people can have sense of familiarity when reading his work, if that's his attention then he's succeeded with the plagiarism of another's work.

You can't use plagiarism as a homage.

[Amaranth Sparrow]

I think it's pretty obvious that he at least traced the original draft. It's not only possible, but common, to trace an image while moving it around to suit another character's proportions or to change up a pose. If you line up the chest, arms, legs, etc., you can clearly see that they match up almost completely on a case-by-case basis. As he refined and ultimately inked the art, it became less and less obvious, but you can still tell that it wasn't drawn freehand. I say this as a professional artist; doing concept design, animation, and inking, I've traced and redrawn a lot of artwork.

Now, I guess it's been a long time, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised that people don't recall, but it's not exactly a secret that Toyotaro is tracer. He addressed it himself in this now-deleted 2006 post on his Dragon Ball AF blog, back when he was still a dojinshi artist using the alias Toyble: https://web.archive.org/web/20130517125 ... 8433.html

Minor note:

As most of you know, for this manga, many of the scenes are created by slightly modifying the original artwork.

I know it's made some people upset, but instead of saying, "so you copied that," can't you just enjoy it for what it is...?"

[ Gohan (reading Dragon Ball AF while looking at the original Dragon Ball manga): "It's exactly the same!!!" ]

Now, I haven't kept up with the Super manga at all, so I don't know how often this still happens, but the guy has a history of doing more than just referencing artwork. And you can argue however you want, but at least in artist circles, there's a difference between an homage, a referenced freehand illustration, and straight up tracing. Tracing someone else's work and passing it off as your own might not be considered plagarism, but it's certainly looked down on.