"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:07 am

Marlowe89 wrote:Ultra Instinct is an advanced martial arts technique that makes all power gaps irrelevant. No, seriously; that's literally its entire purpose. Roshi, a martial arts master with 300 years of experience under his belt, managed to obtain an imperfect bootleg version of Ultra Instinct. Therefore, Roshi can dodge and fight Jiren for a brief period of time. Baaasic fucking logic. Anyone who paid attention to those descriptions shouldn't have an issue with this from a power scaling standpoint because, contrary to popular belief, it makes sense. From a thematic standpoint, I guess it's more debatable.
Speak it for yourself, Toyotaro just messed things up again. It's stupid that Roshi has some kind of old variation of the Ultra Instinct and Goku who trained with him and more powerful masters (before Whis) had never show a small glimpse of this technique. Imperfect or not, Roshi is Nappa level at maximum, he shouldn't even come close to Jiren as his presence only kept the weaklings away.

Also let's not pretend Base Gohan being equal with Kefla who was beating up Goku and Golden Freeza in the previous chapter, seriously at this point there's just no defense.
Last edited by Noah on Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
shadowfox87
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:09 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:08 am

I read the full translated chapter on Viz comics. My final verdict - I liked it. It's a throwback to all the masters that have ever trained Goku. I've been saying since Day 1, that many things that Mr. Popo taught Goku since DB are being relevant now like not wasting unnecessary movements. They did address many things. Just because in DBZ, it was all about surpassing one's limits through power, it doesn't mean they have to continue down that path. Goku and Vegeta needed to raise their power of course so they can make some kind of difference against their opponents. This is what DBZ was all about. However, the core and roots of Dragon Ball was founded in martial arts and the purpose of martial arts isn't to just raise one's power and strength. It's technique. I'm glad that they are revisiting that side of Dragon Ball. It's been 20 years since most of us saw the original Dragon Ball. Since that time, we've seen many other anime - Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, Naruto, etc. to name a few. In that span of time, I'm sure you guys have compared those anime and their fights to Dragon Ball. None of the characters in those anime are capable of destroying a planet but you still enjoyed it didn't you? Because the fighting choreography was amazing, the strategy and techniques were good. If DB is headed towards this direction, then I think it's better than just having more transformations and power-ups and more screaming.

Gohan got a moment finally. If Gohan isn't doing something, Gohan fans are not satisfied. Now that he does something, they are still not satisfied. The potential of the hybrid Saiyan is beyond Goku's. Did I like that Gohan was able to be equal to Kefla? No, definitely not. My expectation was that Kefla would easily defeat Gohan. However, Gohan can be as strong as he needs to be in the manga since we never saw what training he underwent and his full potential. If Gohan fought someone way weaker than Kefla and was having difficulty prior, then that would be a contradiction, but that didn't happen. They added the explanation of the hybrid Saiyan, so it's ok with me.

As for Roshi, he was never using UI to begin with. He was using movements that had similar principles to it. In martial arts, it's called Mushin. It's a state of mind, that few grandmasters reach at the end of their training. UI is NOT more speed and power. Beerus already used it against the other Hakaishin and Whis was using it probably effortlessly against Goku and Vegeta. Roshi isn't moving faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. It's anticipation, predicting, and learning to react before those punches even start. I'm also glad that Whis said "subconsciously" and not "unconsciously". That is consistent with the theory I wrote about UI. Obviously, Jiren is fighting a fly here. If Jiren uses even an ounce of his power, he can kill Roshi and be disqualified. A fly can be annoying for a few seconds, but ultimately it will be defeated (unless you're Saitama). Jiren alternatively could've just used his ki with a wave of his hand to defeat Roshi.
Last edited by shadowfox87 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4322
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:11 am

I hate this chapter. As a Dragon Ball fan, I can say this isn't Dragon Ball, and this time Toyotaro has proven he doesn’t understand it. A real fan of the serie understands that this goes completely against everything the serie ever established.

Now, let me explain why I think this.
First of all, in Dragon Ball the fighter with the highest power always had the upper hand, especially when the gap was huge.
Roshi shouldn’t even be able to get near Jiren. If his power is much lower than Kahseral as he says, then Roshi shouldn’t have a chance there either unless he was hiding his Ki.
Another problem this chapter has is the characterisation. Not only does Kefla act very un-Saiyan like, having no pride in her fight and losing all hope, but Gohan too shows signs that he despises his Saiyan heritage, despite that contributing to his power being so high in the first place. Him being a Saiyan is also the reason why he was able to beat Cell, so it’s absurd for Gohan to suddenly neglect his Saiyan heritage. Is this a subtle “Gohan hates his father” meme? Since when was Gohan similar to My Hero Academia’s Todoroki?
The reason he doesn’t transform isn’t because he wants to improve the Earthling way, but because his potential unlock ritual made it useless for him to transform as he can now always fight at his best without undergoing any physical change which would also consume his stamina. Something Toyotaro has clearly forgotten.

But let me focus on the most messy and insulting characterisations of this chapter: Goku and Roshi.

Goku is a genius fighter who had already surpassed Roshi by the Baba tournament. Throughout the story, it was always shown how much of a genius he is, as he surpassed his rivals and masters with ease (except for Beerus and Whis).
Having Goku acting like a newbie fighter is just bringing down Goku’s character to what he was as a kid: it's a regression of his character, and Jiren treats him as if he is an unexperienced fighter similar to how Cell treated Trunks. Goku losing his temper and screaming he wants more raw power was an out of character moment, and it doesn’t help how he uses something similar to Kaioken, as other characters comment, yet it isn’t Kaioken but has the same “principle”.
This chapter also seems to not understand what the old trainings Goku did were about, even if it accurately mentions them.
- Roshi taught Goku to always aim higher and that there's always someone stronger out there. To never be satisfied.
- Korin taught him how to avoid useless movement to become more efficient in battle.
- Kami and Popo taught him ki manipulation, how to use it better in a fight etcetera... basically all about Ki.
- King Kai’s training was about ki control and power level increase, in fact that’s what Kaioken is all about.
Goku had internalized all of these trainings, it makes no sense for him to have suddenly forgotten them all. Sure, they all lead up to Ultra Instinct, but each training always lead up to the next one. And the training Goku did with those teachers all increased his battle power. Which is not all about physical strength, but has other factors such as speed, reaction speed, efficient movements, ki control.
This chapter also makes it seem like every foe Goku fought had no idea what they were doing and were just powerful because of their Ki being high.
Even though Goku admitted Vegeta was superior to him in fighting prowess, which is exactly why Vegeta had a higher battle power.

Also worth noting how Tenshinan, Krillin and Yamcha trained under the same masters as Goku except for Whis. Does it mean they never understood what they were taught, even though they all surpassed their masters? Does it mean that all those people are actually terrible masters? By their own admission, they never had anything more to teach to their pupils. Does it mean their students forgot all their teachings?

Roshi never ever showed to have anything more to teach, he even admitted being outclassed by Goku in the Baba tournament and told him and the others he had nothing more to teach them afterwards. That was his character arc in the original manga.
He trusted the new generation to be much better than he was, as he was never that talented in the first place considering how it took him 3 years to grab the water off Korin. How do you think he would fare against Popo on Kami’s lookout? I would bet he would do worse than Goku, even if they use the same amount of Ki.
Roshi being the first teacher is not an excuse to completely change his character. it shouldn't be Roshi to remind Goku those things. But suddenly, it turns out that Roshi was an awesome master all the time, but he just refused or forgot to teach his pupils the last and most important training!
The way Toyo presented things it’s like Roshi saw and knew of all the teachings Goku ever received.
What the hell? He should just know of Korin’s training, and that afterwards Goku has trained under some Gods (Kami/Popo, King Kai and Whis).
The chapter makes no sense to anyone who has read or watched DB by actually paying attention to it. Roshi’s training was all about pure strength, and in fact for Roshi martial arts was all about strength. Of course he had other teachings but that was the bulk of it. And it was exactly him who taught Goku and the others that martial arts are all about old plain physical strength, definitely not Vegeta or Freeza.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This is also inconsistent with the way Toyotaro has decided to get rid of Krillin and Tenshinan, who had far surpassed Roshi way back then, by having them lose to Frost's undiscussed superiority power-wise. His manga had been faithful to this up to this chapter, but now Goku has to neglect power... to get stronger and to hold his own against a strong opponent. Now tell me how this makes sense.
Not only does it devalue Ultra Instinct as soon as it's introduced, it also devalues Beerus and the other Gods for not having learnt it in millions of years while Roshi was close to it and was able to teach it to Goku in a few minutes. It devalues Whis' worth as a teacher. All for making Roshi shine and feel like a badass teacher.
Actually, If you replace Grandpa Gohan with Roshi in this chapter and have him say “Goku, did that old man teach you to only care about power? Have you completely forgotten my teachings?” THAT could have worked. Grandpa Gohan was the one teaching Goku Kung Fu, and to work on his weaknesses. Basically retcons the grandpa to be a martial artist who recognised flaws in Roshi’s ways and was developing his own methods. Which would also explain why Goku as a kid always asked Roshi to teach him martial arts instead of just having him go through physical training.

This whole technique over power thing should have never happened now. Maybe in the future, when all the relevant fighters will have mastered UI.
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t mind AT ALL Dragon Ball switching to being more technique focused, but not like this. The only way to make such a change that I can think of is to say that every being who has mastered Ultra Instinct can only improve in his technique and martial arts ability. Even then, it probably wouldn’t make much sense, but the battles between two Ultra Instinct users are still a mystery and at that level one could come up with an excuse saying that their power is equal or that it can't get much higher than that.
Honestly, if Toriyama wrote this chapter I would have been like “Yeah, he has forgotten his work. Well, let’s see how he handles things moving forward”. Unfortunately this isn’t from Toriyama, who will keep writing stories where the character with the bigger power level wins. This is how DB always worked.
The chapter isn't even badly written. If I had to judge its writing without considering the whole picture, I would say its main flaw is that it feels rushed. But I bet someone who has NEVER read or watched DB before would find this chapter good, or someone who has clearly forgotten what DB is about or has never truly understood it. Or someone who just straight out skipped the first part of the serie and so has no idea who Roshi is or what he did.

In conclusion I will say: I am sorry but this isn’t Dragon Ball. It’s something else with DB characters in, seemingly written by someone who has forgotten what DB is. If the ToP happened after the 21st Budokai, then this could have probably made sense, but at this point it contradicts the original manga and even Super's manga.
Last edited by emperior on Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:05 am, edited 8 times in total.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17547
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:19 am

Noah wrote:and Goku who trained with him and more powerful masters (before Whis) had never show a small glimpse of this technique
They absolutely have discussed this kind of concept before. They even go out of their way to remind you right there in the chapter itself with just a few of the countless times it's been brought up in the history of the franchise:

Image

All of that stuff references actual conversations from the original series where the same basic principles were being discussed. Ultra Instinct is a wholly consistent concept based on previous material. Sure, it's not by name, but I think part of the point of what they're going for here: all roads seem to lead to this end-point in martial arts.

I have a lot of issues with a lot of what's going on in Super overall, both in anime and manga form including a ton of the surrounding context in this chapter itself, but Ultra Instinct and its rollout as a concept is in no way one of those issues.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:27 am

emperior wrote:In conclusion I will say: I am sorry but this isn’t Dragon Ball. It’s something else with DB characters in, seemingly written by someone who has forgotten what DB is. If the ToP happened after the 21st Budokai, then this could have probably made sense, but at this point it contradicts the original manga and even Super's manga.
My thoughts exactly and it's funny cause when people see this review they tend to confuse us with power level fanatics, which is not really the case. We're just asking for consistency, Super is supposed to be the original work sequel? Then it should convince us about it, not just doing stuff for the "lulz" and that's talking about both the anime and the manga.
I think Toyotaro is lost, there's no hope in him, but I don't he's the only to blame for as there's the possibility this plot came from Toriyama himself.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
GreatSaiyaJeff
Regular
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:29 am

So before I read this chapter i was expecting it to be the worst chapter in the series. But man fans over exaggerated. Personally while the I wish the fight was longer, the Gohan and Kefla fight was pretty good. Personally I liked how he was eliminated here then he was in the anime. As for the whole Roshi and Jiren scuffle, I thought it was fine. Roshi was just trying to teach Goku a lesson and it has been established that Roshi has been training in secret. Sure the UI was underwhelming compared to the anime afterall it was Goku coming back from near death from the Spirit bomb.
"I just realized something. Honestly... it kinda doesn't matter where I go... whether I'm alive or dead... I'm still pretty dandy." - Space Dandy

User avatar
JazzMazz
I Live Here
Posts: 2217
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:28 am
Location: Mordor, the Borg cube and Voldemort's lair all at the same time in the year 199X

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:31 am

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:So before I read this chapter i was expecting it to be the worst chapter in the series. But man fans over exaggerated. Personally while the I wish the fight was longer, the Gohan and Kefla fight was pretty good. Personally I liked how he was eliminated here then he was in the anime. As for the whole Roshi and Jiren scuffle, I thought it was fine. Roshi was just trying to teach Goku a lesson and it has been established that Roshi has been training in secret. Sure the UI was underwhelming compared to the anime afterall it was Goku coming back from near death from the Spirit bomb.
When was Roshi training in secret ever established or even fully implied?

User avatar
OhHiRenan
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:44 pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:32 am

The Super manga has consistently felt more like Dragon Ball than the anime ever did, but I’d still agree overall that Super as a whole has not captured the feeling of Dragon Ball.

That said, I did like this chapter. Gohan vs Kafla should’ve been its own chapter, but the content was good, especially with Roshi at the end. I loved the entire second half. The manga continues to feature better writing than the anime.

User avatar
AnimeNation101
I Live Here
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Planet ShoJump

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by AnimeNation101 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:40 am

Image

Dbs volume 7 promotional poster thingy.
I called it that Gogeta, Bardock, and something Broly related would be in the movie before it was even announced that it was a Broly movie. 8)

"I don't think I'm a hero of justice or anythin'. But those who'd hurt my friends... I won't forgive!"

User avatar
GreatSaiyaJeff
Regular
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:49 am

JazzMazz wrote:
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:So before I read this chapter i was expecting it to be the worst chapter in the series. But man fans over exaggerated. Personally while the I wish the fight was longer, the Gohan and Kefla fight was pretty good. Personally I liked how he was eliminated here then he was in the anime. As for the whole Roshi and Jiren scuffle, I thought it was fine. Roshi was just trying to teach Goku a lesson and it has been established that Roshi has been training in secret. Sure the UI was underwhelming compared to the anime afterall it was Goku coming back from near death from the Spirit bomb.
When was Roshi training in secret ever established or even fully implied?
Now that you mention it, I think it was only the anime that said it. Could have sworn the manga said it to but I guess not.
"I just realized something. Honestly... it kinda doesn't matter where I go... whether I'm alive or dead... I'm still pretty dandy." - Space Dandy

reecehoward
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:52 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:51 am

JazzMazz wrote:Was hoping for a really solid chapter, didn't get that sadly.

These chapter is awful, and displays a fundamental lack of understanding of storytelling and Dragonball and its characters in general.

Things I liked, Champa's realization his going to be erased was nice.

Thats about it.

The Gohan vs Kefla fight not being shown in its entirety, really diminishes whatever grand build up or point there was whatso-ever for focusing on the universe 6 Saiyans, not to mention, it makes everything that came prior feel extremely forced, almost like he was treating the universe 6 Saiyans as a plot device to get rid of the other characters, before getting rid of them in one of the lamest fights in the series, partly because its not even shown. Due to that, there is no real emotional pay off for the finale, it doesn't really characterize either fighter particularly well.

I'm going to say it, I didn't enjoy the Roshi glorification in the anime, and I think its even worse here, and not by any small margin either, its infinitely worse. Roshi doesn't have, and shouldn't have anything to teach Goku, his simple message about living life was the most important message of his training, and the most actual growth aspect of this training was carrying the shells. Outside of that, Roshi doesn't have anything to offer. His an inferior teacher to guys like Karin, Popo, Kaio and Whis and Goku is a far more skilled martial artists then Roshi, even when it comes to things like fighting sense and movement(those were things that were mainly elaborated upon in Popo's training).
Roshi shouldn't be having any sort of hand to hand with Jiren whatsoever. Not only does he not have the movement skills that Goku learnt from better masters, but its also been shown that even with those skills, someone who is far stronger can overcome that sort of gap, thats why Raditz was able to instantly punk Goku in the Saiyan arc, in spite all his training that made him a more skilled martial artist than Roshi.

Which brings us to the biggest problem with this chapter in my opinion, Goku's characterization. For some reason, Goku has absolutely devolved into this more power sterotype fighter that people constantly mock him for being, even though his not. Goku is not a guy that needs to be re-taught the very fundamentals, his more than aware of them, and even in previous arcs of this manga has shown to be an extremely competent fighter that utilized this fundamental idea's to his advantage. For example, out predicting the time-skip, or using ones energies in bursts, or using ones energy in the most efficient way possible are all teachings that go as far back as Popo. Goku just all of a sudden forgetting these basic fundamentals just screams to me of Toyo just wanting to chuck in a neat reference to his past teachers and glorify Roshi for some reason.

Goku is not a bad student, if anything, his the greatest prodigy(with the exception of Gohan) in the series. He not only surpassed all his prior masters, but perfected there key techniques better than they did, and thats a pretty constant theme across Goku's journey.

Overall, think this is most fan fictiony chapter to ever be released, and it has killed a lot of my hopes about Toyotaro telling a more effective story now that the Battle Royale is over. Hell, its even bought into question for me if Toyo actually understands Dragonball and its characters.

Overall, really awful chapter, didn't appreciate hardly any of the creative decisions made. Took one of my least favourite aspects from the anime and bloated it out of control.

Well, hope next chapter is better.
Exactly! I found it insulting that Toyotaro even implies as such this chapter, like Goku is a noob or something. Literally, Goku is probably the most experienced and seasoned on his team. Goku, himself, is old, skilled, and experienced enough to be a master. He is the first to usually figure the flaws and perfect the techniques and transformations he attains. It's weird that Toyotaro wrote that in just to make some sort of moment for Roshi and give Goku a reason to unlock UI.

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:55 am

It's interesting that the chapter closest to the anime's power scaling is the one that gets the most hate.
-Gohan is blue tier in the anime and that's fine.
-Gohan defeats a slightly above blue tier opponent and that's awful.
-Jiren takes an entire episode to knock out base Vegeta and fails twice and that's fine.
-Jiren takes four pages to defeat Roshi and that's horrible.
Last edited by Bergamo on Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:57 am

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote: Now that you mention it, I think it was only the anime that said it. Could have sworn the manga said it to but I guess not.
It doesn't need to be said. Roshi is a martial artist first and a pervy old dude second. All of these guys were training for the tournament, their lives literally depend on it.
Noah wrote:Imperfect or not, Roshi is Nappa level at maximum, he shouldn't even come close to Jiren as his presence only kept the weaklings away.
Doesn't matter, pal. Roshi could be Bulma level times negative infinity and it wouldn't change a thing about Ultra Instinct disregarding "muh power levels". It's a technique that overcomes any threat, no matter how strong. Roshi used a flawed variation. Simple stuff. Your video of Jiren intimidating some random scrub doesn't change that point.
Noah wrote: Also let's not pretend Base Gohan being equal with Kefla who was beating up Goku and Golden Freeza in the previous chapter, seriously at this point there's just no defense.
Yeah, let's not pretend base Gohan being equal with Kefla is a thing, because fortunately, it isn't. A Gohan that doesn't need to turn Super Saiyan is Ultimate Gohan.

There doesn't need to be a defense, nor does there need to be an attack. Everything that's causing this absolutely unnecessary ruckus has been addressed in the source material on multiple occasions.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Alruneia
I Live Here
Posts: 2029
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:40 pm
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:58 am

Okay, when I said
Alruneia wrote:If something else happens entirely, there'll definitely be drama. It's going to be interesting. (And if this thread gets locked during the leak period, which it does tend to do, that'll probably be a good thing.)
the Roshi scene, Gohan and Kefla double KO-ing each other and the "GUYS IT'S KAIOKEN- no wait never mind" fiasco were definitely not things I had in mind! But there definitely was drama, and it definitely was interesting. Most of all, though, I hope people have learned why this thread always gets locked during the leak period, and why the strength discussion thread was also locked this time around.

To make some comments on the chapter: I mostly liked it, and I had fun reading it.
The Roshi portion serves a narrative purpose, it reminds Goku (and the reader) that pure power isn't always the correct approach. Of course, that it's Roshi vs Jiren is extreme, I absolutely understand that complaint, but the "He's just holding back" excuse actually kinda works here (it is still an excuse though), as the instant Jiren starts taking Roshi even a little seriously, he one-shots him. More importantly than the powers involved, though, Roshi's display knocked some sense into Goku, and it's that 'sense-knocking' that awakens Ultra Instinct (Sign) Goku, instead of Goku just falling into his own Spirit Bomb in the anime version, and that's a welcome difference in my eyes. A psychological trigger, not a physical one.
I'm kinda disappointed by Gohan vs Kefla taking place mostly off-panel. That felt rushed, and honestly the chapter as a whole kinda is. But I like that Gohan has now decided to embrace his human heritage, so to speak, and I take that to mean that he's satisfied with his "Ultimate" state and won't be pursuing transformations in order to increase his strength, which would be the saiyan way (Goku's on his way to his sixth/seventh form, damn it). That's character. Toyotaro didn't really need to add Piccolo's comments on Gohan growing stronger during the Kefla fight, though, it reminds readers of the unanswered question of how strong or weak Gohan and Kefla actually are. (My guess is that Kefla is just way weaker than her anime counterpart due to what was happening to Kale in the last chapter.)
Probably Kanzenshuu's biggest Bulla fangirl. Current avatar: DBU Bulla as Sailor Princess Sadala, based on Sailor Moon: Cosmic Dance

Dragon Ball Ultimate - 74 out of 150 chapters complete
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Action Blue - link
Sailor Moon: Mindful of Love - link | Sailor Moon: Cosmic Dance - link

User avatar
Kanassa
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6233
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:57 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:02 am

Forced, flaccid and over before I can feel any sense of climax. This was the worst Dragon Ball orgasm I've ever had, Toyo!

This chapter is so empty for the most part, the fights being there just to go "Oh man, look how cool Gohan and Roshi are! Even Kefla's admitting that she can't stand up to such a mighty foe as Universe 7's Saiyans", it's just a long wank that somehow gets Goku UI briefly. Gohan VS Kefla was a boring and nothing fight that felt almost like padding (Most of it takes place offscreen? What the hell?), you could have it just be the last two pages of it and nothing would be lost. Gohan is still being a cringey twerp. "I don't rely on my Saiyan blood, I'm being human!" Oh fuck off you liar, your power would never be so high if you didn't have all those Saiyan cells in you. Stop trying to pointlessly separate yourself from the genes just to look cool, especially when the chapter before you were making it a point about how you were a Saiyan. The characters in this fight have little connection, little emotion, little dynamic and most fo their fight is off screen. WHy am I supposed to care again? Oh, NOW Toyo decides to attempt adding weight to the erasure. Man, that might have meant anything if he tried more in the build-up department.

Roshi's bullshit. Jesus christ. First, in true fanfic wank fashion, they have to regress another character for the sake of making this character look good. Goku's suddenly an inexperienced clown who thinks just power is all that matters in a fight? Sure. Oh, Vegeta was also like that even though he clearly wasn't just power? Right. And of course, Goku didn't actually remember the lessons taught to him by other Masters that Roshi shouldn't know about? Yeah, when they admit that they have nothing left to teach Goku, I'm sure they were really just saying that Goku wasn't listening to them. So, Roshi charges in and Jiren finds it difficult to hit him... Somehow. And so Roshi is knocked out of the stage with nothing. No emotion, no investment, no reason to care. He was just there to be wanked off for one fight and give Goku the next plot point.

And so Goku briefly attains Ultra Instinct. Somehow. He really looked into his heart there apparently. Worst of all, it's treated so casually in terms of the way the moment is presented. Beerus reacts a little, but aside from that, it's just like "Oh, I'm Ultra Instinct Omen now. Neat." It lasts for two seconds and does nothing, there isn't anything here to get you excited about when Goku can use the form again. Like the whole chapter, it just feels so forced.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

User avatar
Kingdom Heartless
I Live Here
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:21 am
Location: QLD, Australia
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:20 am

Well...
I at least liked Roshi pointing out the teachings of all of Goku's masters and Goku talking about "perfection" not being a goal.

But other than that... I found very little to praise in this chapter. They mentioned at the start how few fighters remained, and it hit me just how much of a waste this arc has been.

I had issues with a few episodes of the arc in the anime, but far fewer characters felt simply wasted.
Yo! Cal's the name. Nice to meet you!
Lover of all that is pure and fun in the worlds of Dragon Ball, Jim Henson and so forth!
3DS Friend Code 1418-7854-8786. I'm always playing Pokemon, so PM me yours for Friend Safari and battling! :D

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:24 am

JazzMazz wrote:Was hoping for a really solid chapter, didn't get that sadly.

These chapter is awful, and displays a fundamental lack of understanding of storytelling and Dragonball and its characters in general.

Things I liked, Champa's realization his going to be erased was nice.

Thats about it.

The Gohan vs Kefla fight not being shown in its entirety, really diminishes whatever grand build up or point there was whatso-ever for focusing on the universe 6 Saiyans, not to mention, it makes everything that came prior feel extremely forced, almost like he was treating the universe 6 Saiyans as a plot device to get rid of the other characters, before getting rid of them in one of the lamest fights in the series, partly because its not even shown. Due to that, there is no real emotional pay off for the finale, it doesn't really characterize either fighter particularly well.

I'm going to say it, I didn't enjoy the Roshi glorification in the anime, and I think its even worse here, and not by any small margin either, its infinitely worse. Roshi doesn't have, and shouldn't have anything to teach Goku, his simple message about living life was the most important message of his training, and the most actual growth aspect of this training was carrying the shells. Outside of that, Roshi doesn't have anything to offer. His an inferior teacher to guys like Karin, Popo, Kaio and Whis and Goku is a far more skilled martial artists then Roshi, even when it comes to things like fighting sense and movement(those were things that were mainly elaborated upon in Popo's training).
Roshi shouldn't be having any sort of hand to hand with Jiren whatsoever. Not only does he not have the movement skills that Goku learnt from better masters, but its also been shown that even with those skills, someone who is far stronger can overcome that sort of gap, thats why Raditz was able to instantly punk Goku in the Saiyan arc, in spite all his training that made him a more skilled martial artist than Roshi.

Which brings us to the biggest problem with this chapter in my opinion, Goku's characterization. For some reason, Goku has absolutely devolved into this more power sterotype fighter that people constantly mock him for being, even though his not. Goku is not a guy that needs to be re-taught the very fundamentals, his more than aware of them, and even in previous arcs of this manga has shown to be an extremely competent fighter that utilized this fundamental idea's to his advantage. For example, out predicting the time-skip, or using ones energies in bursts, or using ones energy in the most efficient way possible are all teachings that go as far back as Popo. Goku just all of a sudden forgetting these basic fundamentals just screams to me of Toyo just wanting to chuck in a neat reference to his past teachers and glorify Roshi for some reason.

Goku is not a bad student, if anything, his the greatest prodigy(with the exception of Gohan) in the series. He not only surpassed all his prior masters, but perfected there key techniques better than they did, and thats a pretty constant theme across Goku's journey.

Overall, think this is most fan fictiony chapter to ever be released, and it has killed a lot of my hopes about Toyotaro telling a more effective story now that the Battle Royale is over. Hell, its even bought into question for me if Toyo actually understands Dragonball and its characters.

Overall, really awful chapter, didn't appreciate hardly any of the creative decisions made. Took one of my least favourite aspects from the anime and bloated it out of control.

Well, hope next chapter is better.
While I strongly disagree with you about Roshi, completely agree with the bolded and it's honestly annoys me the most along with Kelfa sucking U7 off with a big 'oh well'.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Swagger
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1976
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:17 am
Location: Australia

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:30 am

So it's obvious that this arc is being rushed. When do we all think it'll be wrapped up? I feel like there'll be a chapter in November dedicated to the new movie, so that would mean that this arc will wrap up in October. That would make it a 15 chapter arc. The Future Trunks arc was 13 chapters long in comparison.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:30 am

Bergamo wrote:It's interesting that the chapter closest to the anime's power scaling is the one that gets the most hate.
-Gohan is blue tier in the anime and that's fine.
-Gohan defeats a slightly above blue tier opponent and that's awful.
-Jiren takes an entire episode to knock out base Vegeta and fails twice and that's fine.
-Jiren takes four pages to defeat Roshi and that's horrible.
People had issue with Gohan being Blue tier.

Kale by herself is Blue tier given last chapter, so Kefla should be more than slightly above.

Jiren wiped Vegeta out in half an episode, and people did complain about this.

Roshi is way weaker than Vegeta and Jiren had to put effect into knocking Roshi out while Vegeta was a glorified punching bag.

And why is the anime always mentioned here?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Cursemark505
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:26 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cursemark505 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:33 am

Bergamo wrote: -Gohan is blue tier in the anime and that's fine.
-Gohan defeats a slightly above blue tier opponent and that's awful.
People were not fine with Gohan raising his power to blue tier in the anime. The complaints about the power scaling was at an all time high around that time.
Kefla is not "slightly " above blue tier. Kale alone was knocking around Golden Freeza and was about to get the upper hand on Goku and Kefla is many times stronger.
-Jiren takes an entire episode to knock out base Vegeta and fails twice and that's fine.
-Jiren takes four pages to defeat Roshi and that's horrible.
Many people were not fine with that Vegeta episode either and you know it.
It should not have taken Jiren any number of pages to defeat Roshi.

I honestly don't know how some of you can continuously find excuses to defend this mess. You're all free to like it for whatever reason but I don't know how or why some manga fans convince themselves that this makes any sense...
Last edited by Cursemark505 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply