"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Pannaliciour]

Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?

[TKA]

Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)?

No, the chapter made it clear you need both. That's why Roshi got beat so quickly and effortlessly.

Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world.

True ultra instinct is only achievable and viable if you're also powerful, hence why Whis took over Goku and Vegeta's training. They're now at a level where they should focus more on getting ultra instinct than trying to make their numbers go up. Roshi only had a rudimentary technique similar in principle to ultra instinct, and that resulted in him getting knocked out the second Jiren got serious.

[Simere]

Technical fighting isn't in the showy techniques people like to label as "tactics", it's in the basics of things like angling and positioning and movement. We had every reason before this chapter to think Goku was a master of fundamentals.

I get what you're saying, but I don't agree. I know a thing or two about later sequels retconning things that change the perception of events from older entries. Take the new Disney-led Star Wars movies, for example, but I digress. What Toyotaro did here wasn't a hard retcon. He never had Roshi say Goku had always done this, just that Goku lost sight of it in this particular case. And he's 100% right.

In cases like the Saiyans, Namek, and Cell, raising your power level is the right choice. No amount of tranquility could overcome the massive gap in power (as demonstrated by Roshi getting clobbered by Jiren). Goku isn't a "scrublord"; he just needed outside advice this one time from someone who is centuries-older than him. It's not an issue.

I'm glad to hear someone say they get it, at least. If I thought this chapter was only trying to say Goku lost sight in this particular instance I also wouldn't think it an issue. Not enough of one for me to debate about, anyway. How about you? Would you say it would be an issue if it were establishing Goku as having always done this?

And I want to correct something I said earlier:

Roshi didn't simply advise Goku to think about the situation and come up with an answer. That would be fine. He didn't even hint at the answer, which wouldn't be fine but would still be better. No, he flat out gave him the answer. That's not a teacher helping you study. Yeah, Goku still had to have the talent to follow through, but after you just established he lacks fight IQ I'm not exactly thrilled by that.

Goku did figure out what Roshi was talking about while he was still hinting at it, before he demonstrated it. That's something, I suppose.

[reecehoward]

Goku has clearly lost sight of technique, and Toyotaro simply acknowledges that. Goku is a great martial artist, but he relies too much on transformations. Goku must use technique to get to the next level of power rather than using a ritual(SSG) or vaguely obtaining a power up offscreen(SS3,SSB).

In this chapter yes, but in literally every other chapter of even this manga, Goku is completely competent and utilizes the methods his learned in intelligent manners. If he was all power like people are suggesting, he wouldn't have been able to out predict Hit's timeskip, beat Botamo using strategy, learn the destruction technique, complete and master SSB learn the destruction technique and so forth and so on. My point is, even in the manga, Goku hasn't lost sight of the importance of strategy and technique, which is what makes Goku's diminution into an inept moron who gets schooled by his retired former master who didn't even master the ability to ki sense an opponents movements and relies on his eyes all the more jarring.

EDIT: Also, self movement, or hell, even the use of less movements was never something Roshi taught Goku, or even something he mastered to Goku or even Tien and Kuririn's level.

1. Goku isn't a dummy that relies 100% on power, but he isn't exactly a technical fighter either.

2. Self movement isn't an inherently useful skill. Someone at Roshi's level would probably be better off increasing their strength, and as a result, their speed.

What IS a technical fighter?

[TKA]

I'm glad to hear someone say they get it, at least. If I thought this chapter was only trying to say Goku lost sight in this particular instance I also wouldn't think it an issue. Not enough of one for me to debate about, anyway. How about you? Would you say it would be an issue if it were establishing Goku as having always done this?

Yes, absolutely. I dislike the GT dragons because GT tries to frame the last arc as being the cast’s fault because of their reliance on the dragonballs. That’s problematic because in most cases, if they didn’t use the dragonballs they’d have all been annihilated. So the GT “retcon” retroactively frames the cast as irresponsible or guilty when that clearly wasn’t meant to be the case.

In this chapter, Goku was hitting a brick wall and trying to brute force his way through it since they have no time left. It’s a reasonable assumption for anyone to make. Then Roshi came in and reminded him of his lessons to get him to approach the problem from a less risky and less obvious route—a route only possible because Goku had gone through that training. It doesn’t diminish what Goku had done; rather, it’s a thing that can only happen because of Goku’s experiences.

[reecehoward]

Toriyama was a huge martial arts fan. Goku learns something new from each master. As I said previously, Goku learned about minimizing unnecessary movements from trying to catch Korin. In fact, Roshi had to do the same thing after he climbed Korin's tower. Goku isn't perfect. When he met Mr. Popo, he learned to refine again his movements by attaching a bell on his clothes and move without making a sound - so that he can be "quiet as the sky" and "faster than lightning". Goku beat Tao Pai not just through gaining more power by climbing Korin's tower but also minimizing unnecessary movements.

Toriyama was a fan of martial arts, but not a huge one. He just liked watching Jackie Chan’s movies.
The training Goku did with Popo you mention was anime-only. Goku beat Tao because he got stronger through climbing the tower and increased his battle power through his training with Korin. Battle power isn’t your bench press, it’s a combination of all fighting related skills including raw strength of course.

As DBZ went on, Goku had to overcome the power gap between him and his opponents. Freeza was immensely powerful and regardless of what he knew about martial arts, he needed power to inflict any damage. Freeza and Vegeta didn't even know how to sense ki when they first met Goku. The truth is that the martial arts taught on Earth was advanced given that a universal being such as Freeza didn't know how to control his own ki. As DBZ went on, power became the theme and Goku had to overcome more power gaps. In the process, some of the old fundamentals of martial arts like movement got lost. He relied on power.

It was never stated or implied once that Goku had lost the basics of movement in the Z portion of the manga. This is just your headcanon to justify Toyotaro’s piss poor writing. If Goku had lost the basics, his battle power would have decreased and he wouldn’t have been able to land a finger on Popo anymore.
I would also theorize how Kami’s ki control training wasn’t an Earthling thing, but a Namekian one. In fact no Earthling, including Roshi, was able to manipulate their ki like Kami and Popo could. Later on we see on Namek how the Namekians can control the ki in the same way as Goku and co., who have all trained under Kami, and Gohan who trained under Piccolo.
Goku also learned how to sense Ki as soon as he recovered from drinking the Ultra Divine Water, which is basically proof that at some level, for some reason, it becomes easier to gain this ability. In fact Vegeta picked it up immediately without no one telling him how to do it, and Freeza too “sensed” Goku was coming when Goku was kilometres away.

This is a good direction for the future of DB if we want fights with better choreography, strategy, and technique rather than a guy just screaming, powering up, and having more transformations.

I wouldn’t mind this switch but it cannot happen now, and not like this. It could happen once everyone has UI, as we don’t know how a battle between two UI users plays out but it will probably stay strength-based and Toyotaro will have to follow what Toriyama writes.

That's what Dragon Ball is for you. Not for me. For me, I loved the original Dragon Ball, with martial arts and technique. I enjoyed the fighting choreography. Later, in DBZ, I enjoyed it less as it became more about power and transformations. I'm glad that they are revisiting the core foundations of what laid DB.

DBZ isn’t that different from DB in the fights. The original Dragon Ball may have had more grounded, and possibly better choreography, but power was still the deciding factor in the battles, although techniques did indeed play a part, especially in fights where the two fighters were very close in terms of power. DB battles were probably written better and focused more on each character intelligence as fighters and their techniques, but it also showed how these fighters were stronger than the others exactly because they had better understanding of the fights, better techniques, were faster and stronger. In the end, the winner was always decided based on who was stronger. It was just that most of the times the gap was small and so it was difficult to know exactly who was the best until the fight was over. Not a single time did a weaker character beat a stronger one, except in Baba’s tournament where she brought some fighters who used tricks to win.
Even in the Z part the battle smartness played a part in the fights. In fact, it was in Z where we saw weaker characters winning through their smartness, as it happened with Raditz, with Vegeta, with Zarbon... Cell and Buu would have been done for a few times by weaker characters if it weren’t for their regeneration.

Right THERE! That's the evidence right there that proves the bs we are seeimg in this chapter. Every time a character becomes unfocused in terms of battle prowess, not ONLY does their technique suffer, but they LOSE battle power! This was the case with Gohan, Goku, Krillin, and possibly others. Training is what brings them back to speed, keep them up to speed, AND brings them to new heights. This has been expressed COUNTLESS times throughout the series. Both Goku and Vegeta berate Gohan in the Buu saga for this reason. Gohan forgot the fundamentals, which is why he couldn't beat an opponent he actually SHOULD have had the power to beat in Dabura. Goku himself got scratched by a bullet because he let his training slip. He trained to get that prowess back. You CAN'T train WITHOUT the fundamentals. If you want to say Goku still has room for improvement in the area of technique, that's fine. To blame it on a lack of utilizing fundamental basics is absolute bullshit. Look at the choreography in every one of his fights since Ssj Goku vs Frieza, and tell me he isn't an absolute beast in terms of skill. Some of you all are just looking at the big moments and not the entire fight to even think that.

These guys are telling me that Goku just needs to work on his technique to beat a dude that is still quite a few leagues above him? I'm sorry, this aint Naruto (thank God), Goku's not gonna just out technique a dude who could kill him with a fart. He has to improve his overall battle power to stand a chance against a superior foe. That's what the entire series is at the core. Can't win with just one shiny technique if you are "fodder".

[shadowfox87]

Toriyama was a fan of martial arts, but not a huge one. He just liked watching Jackie Chan’s movies.
The training Goku did with Popo you mention was anime-only. Goku beat Tao because he got stronger through climbing the tower and increased his battle power through his training with Korin. Battle power isn’t your bench press, it’s a combination of all fighting related skills including raw strength of course.

Well we don't know everything about Toriyama to say that for a fact. Yes, we know he was a fan of Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. He watched the Drunken Fist Master and even put "Jackie Chun" as a pun to reference him. Goku may have not moved with a bell in the manga, but the fundamentals of being "quiet like the sky" and "quicker than lightning" are in the manga.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

That's incorrect. Just by learning new skills and technique, does not raise one's battle power. Battle power in DB is ki. Ki has three components, "Shoki" (mind), "Yuuki" (courage), and "Genki" (spirit). The first two are just one's focus and mental fortitude. This is why meditation helps raise ki. The majority of the training that Goku undergoes is to increase his body's strength. Korin did not teach Goku any new technique's but taught him how to minimize unnecessary movements to catch him. These movements DID help with his fight with Tao Pai Pai. It wasn't just an increase in strength which was due to climbing the tower.

[spoiler]
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-2013/[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/[/spoiler]

It was never stated or implied once that Goku had lost the basics of movement in the Z portion of the manga. This is just your headcanon to justify Toyotaro’s piss poor writing. If Goku had lost the basics, his battle power would have decreased and he wouldn’t have been able to land a finger on Popo anymore.
I would also theorize how Kami’s ki control training wasn’t an Earthling thing, but a Namekian one. In fact no Earthling, including Roshi, was able to manipulate their ki like Kami and Popo could. Later on we see on Namek how the Namekians can control the ki in the same way as Goku and co., who have all trained under Kami, and Gohan who trained under Piccolo.
Goku also learned how to sense Ki as soon as he recovered from drinking the Ultra Divine Water, which is basically proof that at some level, for some reason, it becomes easier to gain this ability. In fact Vegeta picked it up immediately without no one telling him how to do it, and Freeza too “sensed” Goku was coming when Goku was kilometres away.

It wasn't explicitly stated but it can be implied in either direction. As DBZ progressed, especially after the Freeza saga, Goku focused more on strength, gravity training, and Super Saiyan transformations. He didn't lose all of the fundamentals but it's not necessary that he was just as proficient at "movement" as he was when he first learned them from Korin and Mr. Popo. Also, no Kami taught Mr. Popo ki control which was part of the "quiet as the sky" training. However, there were other masters such as Mutaito and Korin, who are both Earthlings and knew how to control their ki. Neither Korin or Mutaito trained under Kami or a disciple of Kami. The point is not whether Vegeta and Freeza picked it up quickly but that they didn't know how to until after their fight with Goku. Ki is present in all living things so technically anyone can "learn" to sense ki if they just try to but they relied on scouters. The reason they couldn't suppress their ki was also because they didn't learn to control it before.

Not a single time did a weaker character beat a stronger one, except in Baba’s tournament where she brought some fighters who used tricks to win.
Even in the Z part the battle smartness played a part in the fights. In fact, it was in Z where we saw weaker characters winning through their smartness, as it happened with Raditz, with Vegeta, with Zarbon... Cell and Buu would have been done for a few times by weaker characters if it weren’t for their regeneration.

I agree with most of what you said. DB had better choreographed fights with more strategy and smaller power gaps. However, then you say that always the stronger character wins over the weaker one (i.e. the one with higher battle power). This isn't true. Raditz had a higher battle power than both Goku and Piccolo but he lost to them due to their coordinated teamwork. Kid Buu was weaker than the South Kaioshin but he won by absorbing him. Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than Perfect Cell, but Cell won because Trunks was too slow in that form. Even in the Super anime, we've seen Krillin use the Kienzan to cut the stage from beneath them. A weakened and exhausted Base Goku sparring with SSJ Caulifla. Mutaito defeated King Piccolo using the Mafuba even though he was weaker. Akuuman, one of Fortunetellar Baba's fighters used his ability to explode the heart of his opponent by expanding their evil. And yes, in DBZ, Cell and Buu had regeneration otherwise they would have lost to weaker opponents. In all, power and technique are both important but I'm glad that DBS is returning to its roots and focusing on technique again. I've had enough of transformations and power-ups.

[emperior]

Well we don't know everything about Toriyama to say that for a fact. Yes, we know he was a fan of Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. He watched the Drunken Fist Master and even put "Jackie Chun" as a pun to reference him. Goku may have not moved with a bell in the manga, but the fundamentals of being "quiet like the sky" and "quicker than lightning" are in the manga.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

That's incorrect. Just by learning new skills and technique, does not raise one's battle power. Battle power in DB is ki. Ki has three components, "Shoki" (mind), "Yuuki" (courage), and "Genki" (spirit). The first two are just one's focus and mental fortitude. This is why meditation helps raise ki. The majority of the training that Goku undergoes is to increase his body's strength. Korin did not teach Goku any new technique's but taught him how to minimize unnecessary movements to catch him. These movements DID help with his fight with Tao Pai Pai. It wasn't just an increase in strength which was due to climbing the tower.

[spoiler]
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-2013/[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/[/spoiler]

I forgot about that Toriyama explanation. Which, yet again, proves how in his work power and strength triumph over skill and technique.
Korin's training probably helped with Goku's stamina, then. Not a lot, though, as Goku was quickly out of breath for still not moving well against Popo and due to the thin air on the Lookout. That may suggest that Korin's training was a more rudimentary version of Popo's, who taught Goku the true secret for moving efficiently by using Ki to sense everything around you, which is why he could see Goku scratching his head even though he wasn't directly looking at Goku.

It wasn't explicitly stated but it can be implied in either direction. As DBZ progressed, especially after the Freeza saga, Goku focused more on strength, gravity training, and Super Saiyan transformations. He didn't lose all of the fundamentals but it's not necessary that he was just as proficient at "movement" as he was when he first learned them from Korin and Mr. Popo. Also, no Kami taught Mr. Popo ki control which was part of the "quiet as the sky" training. However, there were other masters such as Mutaito and Korin, who are both Earthlings and knew how to control their ki. Neither Korin or Mutaito trained under Kami or a disciple of Kami. The point is not whether Vegeta and Freeza picked it up quickly but that they didn't know how to until after their fight with Goku. Ki is present in all living things so technically anyone can "learn" to sense ki if they just try to but they relied on scouters. The reason they couldn't suppress their ki was also because they didn't learn to control it before.

There's no way Goku forgot his fundamentals and got less proficient at movement than he was back as a kid. This is just stupid.
I will give you another example. Goku had to learn how to move efficiently on the Lookout because of the thin air. Do you think thin air can even be compared to the weight of a place with 10x or 100x the gravity of Earth? Goku would have to be extremely proficient at movement to be able to move and train well under that amount of gravity. And guess what, Goku and Vegeta still train in places with more gravity than Earth. There must be a reason for it, right?
reecehoward rightfully pointed out how Gohan couldn't beat Dabura because he had slacking off in his training, even though he had all the power to beat him. I am sure he would have won, in the end, but it was taking him too long which is why Vegeta got annoyed and Goku looked quite disappointed. The same Goku who has been treated like an amateur who has forgotten all the basics.
Also no, sorry, Mutaito and Korin can't even compare to Popo and Karin if we talk about mastery of Ki. All Korin can do is sense Ki. We have no idea what Mutaito could do apart from the Mafuba and probably ki blasts too, but I would bet he wasn't that different from Roshi - the true Roshi, not the bootleg version who appeared in Super's chapter 39.

I agree with most of what you said. DB had better choreographed fights with more strategy and smaller power gaps. However, then you say that always the stronger character wins over the weaker one (i.e. the one with higher battle power). This isn't true. Raditz had a higher battle power than both Goku and Piccolo but he lost to them due to their coordinated teamwork. Kid Buu was weaker than the South Kaioshin but he won by absorbing him. Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than Perfect Cell, but Cell won because Trunks was too slow in that form. Even in the Super anime, we've seen Krillin use the Kienzan to cut the stage from beneath them. A weakened and exhausted Base Goku sparring with SSJ Caulifla. Mutaito defeated King Piccolo using the Mafuba even though he was weaker. Akuuman, one of Fortunetellar Baba's fighters used his ability to explode the heart of his opponent by expanding their evil. And yes, in DBZ, Cell and Buu had regeneration otherwise they would have lost to weaker opponents. In all, power and technique are both important but I'm glad that DBS is returning to its roots and focusing on technique again. I've had enough of transformations and power-ups.

I think you didn't read well what I wrote here (no problem), as I mentioned Raditz among the characters who was defeated by weaker opponents and he belongs to the Z portion of the series.
You confirm what I said, though, that there are far more instances of weaker characters winning over stronger ones in the later stories (Z onwards).
But never did a character like Krillin, for example, beat a much stronger one like Freeza, Cell etcetera. When the difference of power is too high, the powerful character shouldn't even be fazed by the attacks of the weaker one. As the anime showed where Jiren was so powerful that Goku's Kamehameha didn't even touch him, and Super Saiyan Goku's punches didn't move him of a inch.

I'm all for them trying to make technique more important and reducing the number of transformations and power-ups, but the way Toyotaro has handled things is incredibly poor and he murdered Roshi's and Goku's characters in a single chapter to try and accomplish it.
As I proposed in the past, if they want to take DB in this direction they can't bring every old character on the stage and suddenly have them being able to compete with Goku and company.
The only way I can think of for technique to become more important is to explain how in a fight between two beings with Ultra Instinct, the one with better technique wins due to his body moving better. Essentially making Ultra Instinct a sort of power cap in which characters can't get much stronger than they are when they use that state.
Even then, I don't think Toriyama will ever take this path as it's not very Dragon Ball-like, it's not his style and it could hinder the sense of progression the serie has. I am also quite sure that Grand Priest is much better than Whis because he is just much stronger.
Toriyama has also proved how he doesn't care about powering up his weaker characters, and has instead preferred to focus on just a few. Namely Goku and Vegeta, and now probably Freeza too. These are the characters that matter when we talk about the old guard. Of course he has now introduced other incredible fighters such as Hit, Toppo, Jiren, Kale and Caulifla etc. and there's also Beerus who Goku is pretty close to surpass, and I doubt Toriyama will want to leave Beerus in the dust like that.

I just hope that from now on Ultra Instinct will stay as Goku's ultimate level of power and that he won't undergo through other transformations to get stronger - in that they should follow how the story worked up until Namek, when the main way for characters to get stronger was through training and improving by fighting. Which is also more or less how Super has worked ever since Goku and Vegeta achieved Blue, even though they decided to give Goku his Kaioken back and Vegeta a stronger version of Blue.

[BlueBasilisk]

It's such a bizarre contrast when you think about the fact that Goku was the one teaching these lessons to Caulifla and Kale in the anime. His judgement was called into question for doing so, but never his capability. Even his use of Kaioken against Hit was played as a high risk high reward maneuver that he'd carefully weighed out before the attempt.

DBZ isn’t that different from DB in the fights. The original Dragon Ball may have had more grounded, and possibly better choreography, but power was still the deciding factor in the battles, although techniques did indeed play a part, especially in fights where the two fighters were very close in terms of power. DB battles were probably written better and focused more on each character intelligence as fighters and their techniques, but it also showed how these fighters were stronger than the others exactly because they had better understanding of the fights, better techniques, were faster and stronger. In the end, the winner was always decided based on who was stronger. It was just that most of the times the gap was small and so it was difficult to know exactly who was the best until the fight was over. Not a single time did a weaker character beat a stronger one, except in Baba’s tournament where she brought some fighters who used tricks to win.
Even in the Z part the battle smartness played a part in the fights. In fact, it was in Z where we saw weaker characters winning through their smartness, as it happened with Raditz, with Vegeta, with Zarbon... Cell and Buu would have been done for a few times by weaker characters if it weren’t for their regeneration.

Right. Goku was in a dead heat with most of his foes in Dragon Ball. Jackie Chun, Tien, Piccolo Jr. Piccolo Sr came in with the biggest gap at a little under 2x, iirc, and Goku got his ass whipped until he was able to close that power gap. And when Goku came back for the 23rd tournament, he was running circles around Tien. It wasn't like Z where the evil flavor of the week being 10+ times stronger became the norm and foes could survive anything short of being atomized. Goku used all sorts of crazy tactics against Frieza and had some advantages over him in terms of skill but no amount of craftiness is gonna overcome the fact that Frieza was 40x more powerful than Goku with no outstanding weaknesses until he was goaded into full power mode.

[shadowfox87]

Korin's training probably helped with Goku's stamina, then. Not a lot, though, as Goku was quickly out of breath for still not moving well against Popo and due to the thin air on the Lookout. That may suggest that Korin's training was a more rudimentary version of Popo's, who taught Goku the true secret for moving efficiently by using Ki to sense everything around you, which is why he could see Goku scratching his head even though he wasn't directly looking at Goku.

Korin's training was not just about stamina. Stamina gets built up over time as in all cases when you train. His primary focus was was about movement. Goku had to catch Korin and to do that, he needed to minimize unnecessary movements. Each time Goku climbed the Korin tower, he got stronger. Eventually, Goku learned to anticipate where Korin would be instead of trying to chase him. This was a precursor to what he would learn and refine with Mr. Popo. It took Roshi 3 years to catch Korin and Goku did it in three days.

There's no way Goku forgot his fundamentals and got less proficient at movement than he was back as a kid. This is just stupid.
I will give you another example. Goku had to learn how to move efficiently on the Lookout because of the thin air. Do you think thin air can even be compared to the weight of a place with 10x or 100x the gravity of Earth? Goku would have to be extremely proficient at movement to be able to move and train well under that amount of gravity. And guess what, Goku and Vegeta still train in places with more gravity than Earth. There must be a reason for it, right?
reecehoward rightfully pointed out how Gohan couldn't beat Dabura because he had slacking off in his training, even though he had all the power to beat him. I am sure he would have won, in the end, but it was taking him too long which is why Vegeta got annoyed and Goku looked quite disappointed. The same Goku who has been treated like an amateur who has forgotten all the basics.
Also no, sorry, Mutaito and Korin can't even compare to Popo and Karin if we talk about mastery of Ki. All Korin can do is sense Ki. We have no idea what Mutaito could do apart from the Mafuba and probably ki blasts too, but I would bet he wasn't that different from Roshi - the true Roshi, not the bootleg version who appeared in Super's chapter 39.

Things like "thin air" and "gravity" are modes of resistance. It's the environment which makes it more difficult to train. They don't replace the "technique" that Goku is learning which is learning to be "quiet as the sky" and "quicker than lightning". Planet Vegeta itself had a gravity of 10x Earth's gravity. All this helps with strength. It's like comparing a weight lifter to a martial artist. The weight lifter can lift more weights but won't know how to do martial arts techniques. The martial artist, on the other hand, may be weaker, but would be quicker and more proficient at movement.

Gohan didn't train for 7 years. That's quite a long time. Vegeta said after sensing Gohan's ki that it is WEAKER than when he fought Cell.

Umm no? Korin is the person who taught Roshi movement. Roshi was one of the first people to climb Korin's tower. He spent three years trying to catch Korin. This is after his training with Mutaito. Mutaito invented the Mafuba and taught the fundamentals of ki control to Roshi and Shen. They taught it to their disciples. The point of this is not to compare Mutaito and Korin to Kami and Popo but to give you an example that Earthlings were capable of ki control without the help of Kami. It was Kami that later used the Mafuba technique, which was invented by Mutaito, in an attempt to capture King Piccolo. If Kami was so much more proficient, he would've invented the technique himself hundreds of years ago. Goku knew of Mutaito too as he mentioned in the DBS anime when learning the mafuba. There was a filler in DB in which Goku went to the past and learned more about ki control from Mutaito. Still a filler, but the point remains even you go by only the manga that Mutaito was a proficient martial arts master. Korin is an immortal cat over 800 years old and often considered as the "God of martial arts". So again, this a prime example of Earthlings understanding ki even before Freeza did, who was the emperor of the universe.

I think you didn't read well what I wrote here (no problem), as I mentioned Raditz among the characters who was defeated by weaker opponents and he belongs to the Z portion of the series.
You confirm what I said, though, that there are far more instances of weaker characters winning over stronger ones in the later stories (Z onwards).
But never did a character like Krillin, for example, beat a much stronger one like Freeza, Cell etcetera. When the difference of power is too high, the powerful character shouldn't even be fazed by the attacks of the weaker one. As the anime showed where Jiren was so powerful that Goku's Kamehameha didn't even touch him, and Super Saiyan Goku's punches didn't move him of a inch.

Of course, Krillin beating Freeza or Cell would not make any sense at all. That's quite a exaggerated example. We have enough examples in DB and DBZ where a weaker fighter won against a stronger one. Power gaps are also important. I never said it wasn't. Power is needed to inflict damage but movement is needed to be able to dodge and land effective blows. The series is implying that Goku has reached the limits of his power. He will not overcome Jiren in power in this fight so the only way for him to evolve is through mastery of self-movement. The gap between Jiren and Goku isn't as huge that it is unsurmountable even with mastery of self-movement. If it was, then Goku needs more power as well.

I'm all for them trying to make technique more important and reducing the number of transformations and power-ups, but the way Toyotaro has handled things is incredibly poor and he murdered Roshi's and Goku's characters in a single chapter to try and accomplish it.
As I proposed in the past, if they want to take DB in this direction they can't bring every old character on the stage and suddenly have them being able to compete with Goku and company.
The only way I can think of for technique to become more important is to explain how in a fight between two beings with Ultra Instinct, the one with better technique wins due to his body moving better. Essentially making Ultra Instinct a sort of power cap in which characters can't get much stronger than they are when they use that state.
Even then, I don't think Toriyama will ever take this path as it's not very Dragon Ball-like, it's not his style and it could hinder the sense of progression the serie has. I am also quite sure that Grand Priest is much better than Whis because he is just much stronger.
Toriyama has also proved how he doesn't care about powering up his weaker characters, and has instead preferred to focus on just a few. Namely Goku and Vegeta, and now probably Freeza too. These are the characters that matter when we talk about the old guard. Of course he has now introduced other incredible fighters such as Hit, Toppo, Jiren, Kale and Caulifla etc. and there's also Beerus who Goku is pretty close to surpass, and I doubt Toriyama will want to leave Beerus in the dust like that.

You'll find what Toriyama's "path" will be and his comments on Toyotaro's manga on Sept. 4th in his interview. Toriyama was never about strength. He has always made fun of muscle heads and size. He made Zeno the most powerful being and Daishinkan the 2nd, both of who are smaller than most. He made fourth form Freeza slimmer and simple. Nappa and Recoom were prime examples of those with a lot of power and no brains. He has never been a fan of power and size. Toriyama has been teaching the lesson since DB that brains trumps power. Power is still important obviously, but to say that it is not "Dragon Ball-like" is incorrect.

Every old character doesn't need to be made significant. Roshi's role was only for 2 seconds for him to tie into every martial arts master that has ever trained Goku. He sacrificed himself to help Goku evolve. That's it and he won't be a major player in the series again. Beerus isn't going to be left in the dust either as the Oracle Fish already prophesied that Beerus, Goku, and Vegeta would be rivals.

I just hope that from now on Ultra Instinct will stay as Goku's ultimate level of power and that he won't undergo through other transformations to get stronger - in that they should follow how the story worked up until Namek, when the main way for characters to get stronger was through training and improving by fighting. Which is also more or less how Super has worked ever since Goku and Vegeta achieved Blue, even though they decided to give Goku his Kaioken back and Vegeta a stronger version of Blue.

On this point we can agree. I also hope that Goku will not have any further transformations. UI should be the be all end all.

[TheOne]

Technical fighting isn't in the showy techniques people like to label as "tactics", it's in the basics of things like angling and positioning and movement. We had every reason before this chapter to think Goku was a master of fundamentals.

I get what you're saying, but I don't agree. I know a thing or two about later sequels retconning things that change the perception of events from older entries. Take the new Disney-led Star Wars movies, for example, but I digress. What Toyotaro did here wasn't a hard retcon. He never had Roshi say Goku had always done this, just that Goku lost sight of it in this particular case. And he's 100% right.

In cases like the Saiyans, Namek, and Cell, raising your power level is the right choice. No amount of tranquility could overcome the massive gap in power (as demonstrated by Roshi getting clobbered by Jiren). Goku isn't a "scrublord"; he just needed outside advice this one time from someone who is centuries-older than him. It's not an issue.

I'm glad to hear someone say they get it, at least. If I thought this chapter was only trying to say Goku lost sight in this particular instance I also wouldn't think it an issue. Not enough of one for me to debate about, anyway. How about you? Would you say it would be an issue if it were establishing Goku as having always done this?

And I want to correct something I said earlier:

Roshi didn't simply advise Goku to think about the situation and come up with an answer. That would be fine. He didn't even hint at the answer, which wouldn't be fine but would still be better. No, he flat out gave him the answer. That's not a teacher helping you study. Yeah, Goku still had to have the talent to follow through, but after you just established he lacks fight IQ I'm not exactly thrilled by that.

Goku did figure out what Roshi was talking about while he was still hinting at it, before he demonstrated it. That's something, I suppose.

Jiren was certainly not the person to demonstrate this on, that’s for sure. No amount of tranquility at Roshis level should even give him the ability to dodge a hit from Jiren. Even if he’s not really trying. Where was this tranquility from Roshi when fighting King Piccolo or Tien in Dragon Ball? It was useless, which is why he used the mafuba. The gap between King Piccolo and Jiren is enormous. I get what you guys are trying to do, but there were better ways of them handling this kinda stuff than how they have. With as many good, high quality anime’s out there, the least they could do is write a little better story wise. You shouldn’t have to reach for explanations like this.

[Marlowe89]

No amount of tranquility at Roshis level should even give him the ability to dodge a hit from Jiren. Even if he’s not really trying.

This is probably going to be my last post on the Jiren vs. Roshi stuff for a while because I'm tired of arguing about it.

Jiren "wasn't really trying" because he's fighting in a tournament where he has to be careful not to kill or gravely injure his opponents. He was more than likely massively suppressed to account for Roshi's level, Roshi developed a technique similar to UI at some point, Jiren underestimated him, so Roshi (briefly) dodged his (massively suppressed) attacks.

That's it. This happened for a few seconds at the absolute most. Even getting knicked a couple of times in the face and abdomen was enough to have Roshi reeling in pain. After that, Jiren became a tad more serious and love-tapped him out of the ring.

Holy hell, y'all. Did this series get as much vitriol when base Goku fought on par with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla in the anime for an extended period of time because "more fighting experience"? I don't remember as much of an outrage there, but I'm genuinely curious.

[supersaiyanZero]

Wow, I really enjoyed Roshi vs Jiren. It was a nice sendoff and homage to Goku's tutelage under the old hermit. I'm really disappointed that Gohan vs Kefla was off screen though, it what could have been an epic fight and a great character moment for Gohan. This was the first chapter where I'm starting to feel that the pacing is a bit rushed in order to get to the end.

[emperior]

No amount of tranquility at Roshis level should even give him the ability to dodge a hit from Jiren. Even if he’s not really trying.

This is probably going to be my last post on the Jiren vs. Roshi stuff for a while because I'm tired of arguing about it.

Jiren "wasn't really trying" because he's fighting in a tournament where he has to be careful not to kill or gravely injure his opponents. He was more than likely massively suppressed to account for Roshi's level, Roshi developed a technique similar to UI at some point, Jiren underestimated him, so Roshi (briefly) dodged his (massively suppressed) attacks.

That's it. This happened for a few seconds at the absolute most. Even getting knicked a couple of times in the face and abdomen was enough to have Roshi reeling in pain. After that, Jiren became a tad more serious and love-tapped him out of the ring.

Holy hell, y'all. Did this series get as much vitriol when base Goku fought on par with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla in the anime for an extended period of time because "more fighting experience"? I don't remember as much of an outrage there, but I'm genuinely curious.

It is too convenient to say that Jiren was holding back that much. As an experienced fighter and hero, he should know the right amount of power to use to beat an opponent without killing. In the end Goku doesn’t die when he takes a punch meant for his Ultra Instinct in his base form, so it’s not like characters are so frail they will die for a punch stronger than they are.

When Goku fought on par with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla we knew it was due to his experience, and it was pointed out. Even then, the gap was a 100x at best if we go by the fixed number for SS2 multiplier. And we have no idea how strong Goku was compared to her, he may have been very close to her SS2 form in his normal state, as he also got stronger through the tournament. When he turned SS2, Caulifla even commented “Is this the same Super Saiyan 2 power?”.
Roshi and Jiren have a gap of billions of times, it’s quite different.
You really can’t compare the Caulifla fight to Roshi’s. If anything, you should compare it to Kefla vs Gohan.
There's also no mention of how much Jiren was holding back in the manga, and everyone was shocked at Roshi’s performance.

By the way, the anime’s inconsistent power scaling has been called out countless of times on this forum, along the other aspects of the anime that people disliked. It’s only manga fans who ceaselessly defend it without ever criticising a single aspect of it. This is not a way to have healthy discussion about it, as it wouldn’t be if the same thing happened for the anime. It’s also making it impossible to have any kind of discussion here if there are some users who will defend the manga no matter what. If you can’t handle criticism to the manga, then don’t bother checking this thread or contact the OP/Kanzenshuu mods and have them write in giant letters NO CRITICISM ALLOWED in the title of the thread. If they do, then I won’t come to comment about the aspects I like/dislike of the manga every month. It’s not my fault if lately Toyotaro has been on a streak of bad and rushed chapters.

[Miracles]

Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?

Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.

[reecehoward]

Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?

Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.

Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.

[shadowfox87]

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?

That's like asking why is fourth form Freeza dodging Piccolo, Krillin, and Gohan's attack during the Namek saga? The reason why fighters block or dodge at all is because that is the proper way to fight regardless of who your opponent is. This is martial arts. You can't get overconfident and then get lazy to not dodge/block. If some old man just started charging at your face, are you going to let him hit you? Let's say if a baby were to try to punch your face, would you let it hit you? Your natural reaction is to avoid or block it.

Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.

UI is not a boost in speed and power in the manga thus far. It's a way of subconsciously moving the body to dodge any attack exactly as Whis has stated. This mastery of self-movement allows a person to also land critical blows in vital areas which leads to more damage than normal. For the same reason, Roshi isn't moving faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. He's anticipating the punches and moving out of the way before the punches are even thrown. That's something that Korin taught him all the way back in Dragon Ball. He had to catch Korin but in order to do so, he had to predict where Korin would be rather than chase him. This obviously only works temporarily. Jiren is only a little surprised. If Jiren used even an ounce of his strength, he would kill Roshi. Roshi only lasted 2 seconds and then Jiren karate chopped him.

[reecehoward]

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?

That's like asking why is fourth form Freeza dodging Piccolo, Krillin, and Gohan's attack during the Namek saga? The reason why fighters block or dodge at all is because that is the proper way to fight regardless of who your opponent is. This is martial arts. You can't get overconfident and then get lazy to not dodge/block. If some old man just started charging at your face, are you going to let him hit you? Let's say if a baby were to try to punch your face, would you let it hit you? Your natural reaction is to avoid or block it.

Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.

UI is not a boost in speed and power in the manga thus far. It's a way of subconsciously moving the body to dodge any attack exactly as Whis has stated. This mastery of self-movement allows a person to also land critical blows in vital areas which leads to more damage than normal. For the same reason, Roshi isn't moving faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. He's anticipating the punches and moving out of the way before the punches are even thrown. That's something that Korin taught him all the way back in Dragon Ball. He had to catch Korin but in order to do so, he had to predict where Korin would be rather than chase him. This obviously only works temporarily. Jiren is only a little surprised. If Jiren used even an ounce of his strength, he would kill Roshi. Roshi only lasted 2 seconds and then Jiren karate chopped him.

I NEVER said UI was. I said that even if he had just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd still have an advantage with other techniques. Jiren in the manga has shown next to no esoteric fighting abilities that would even require Goku to NEED UI if all UI is, is just instinctual movement. It'd help, but it's not necessary here. Goku has been able hit Jiren only to no avail. That tells us where he's lacking. He actually DOES need more power here and had he gotten a transformation, the good old fashioned brand, he would be strong AND fast enough to compete with Jiren. Technique on its own is jack shit to Jiren, as proven by Roshi's fail.lol

[shadowfox87]

I NEVER said UI was. I said that even if he had just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd still have an advantage with other techniques. Jiren in the manga has shown next to no esoteric fighting abilities that would even require Goku to NEED UI if all UI is, is just instinctual movement. It'd help, but it's not necessary here. Goku has been able hit Jiren only to no avail. That tells us where he's lacking. He actually DOES need more power here and had he gotten a transformation, the good old fashioned brand, he would be strong AND fast enough to compete with Jiren. Technique on its own is jack shit to Jiren, as proven by Roshi's fail.lol

Goku has enough transformations already. They are trying to move away from this. Goku isn't Roshi. He has a lot of power and yes there's a power gap between him and Jiren, but right now he needs to overcome the next wall in his evolution. Whis said that wall is not simply powering up more but achieving mastery of self-movement. In this case, Goku will not surpass Jiren in power but he may make a difference and actually have a chance with UI. That is the point. The "good old fashioned" way is outdated. This is a good thing that the series is trying to go back to the roots of what made Dragon Ball.

[TheOne]

No amount of tranquility at Roshis level should even give him the ability to dodge a hit from Jiren. Even if he’s not really trying.

This is probably going to be my last post on the Jiren vs. Roshi stuff for a while because I'm tired of arguing about it.

Jiren "wasn't really trying" because he's fighting in a tournament where he has to be careful not to kill or gravely injure his opponents. He was more than likely massively suppressed to account for Roshi's level, Roshi developed a technique similar to UI at some point, Jiren underestimated him, so Roshi (briefly) dodged his (massively suppressed) attacks.

That's it. This happened for a few seconds at the absolute most. Even getting knicked a couple of times in the face and abdomen was enough to have Roshi reeling in pain. After that, Jiren became a tad more serious and love-tapped him out of the ring.

Holy hell, y'all. Did this series get as much vitriol when base Goku fought on par with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla in the anime for an extended period of time because "more fighting experience"? I don't remember as much of an outrage there, but I'm genuinely curious.

The gap between Goku and Caulifla is nothing compared to the gap between Jiren and Roshi.

The amount of holding back Jiren would have to do is just unrealistic. Just like when Black, a villain, shot an energy attack at Mai, a normal human.